Fleury lives the hype

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IGM

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May 26, 2002
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I can only tell you what I have seen happen to a couple of "potential star" goalies over the past several years and then tell you why I think it is important that Fluery spend a couple of years down on the farm.

The Kings have had two stellar young goalies come into their system during this time period and the comparison with Fluery's situation is very close. The Kings at the time weren't very good, especially on D and the Pens don't look to be much better at this point in time.

Rob Stauber had just won the Hobie baker when he came to the Kings. He was the best young goalie in the world at the time as some hockey journalists would tell you including Don Cherry. (outside of the NHL) He had set many records during his time in Min and was technically exceptional. He came to the Kings and due to the fact that they didn't have anyone else near his level of talent they rushed him into the line up. I was in the forum club for the pre game team dinner/meeting (only the players who weren't playing that night actually ate) the night he first came to the team. I talked to the kid and he was a nice guy who looked confident and ready. I had a chance to do the same thing about two months later and he was a different guy. The guy had more rubber flying at this chin then a hollywood hooker on most nights and it didn't take long for him to lose his stellar positional play in favor of adopting more unorthodox habits in an attempt to try and keep the puck out of the net. There were many nights that he would face 35 or more shots without any real D plan in front of him. He left the Kings to Buff and is out of the NHL in less than 6 years.

Jamie Storr is another good example. At the time he was one of the highest drafted goalies in NHL history. (He was drafted 7th over all I think. Remember i said ONE of) He was thought of as THE goalie of the future. The Kings also worked him into the line up waaaay to early and he too went from stud to dud in no time. He would show you flashes of absolute brilliance on some nights and then be a pure goat on others. He was given every opportunity to become a great NHL goalie EXCEPT the time he needed to develope his game at the pro level. He is playing in Russia this year with the HOPE of making an NHL comeback. He isn't even 29.

I think that Fluery has better talent then both of these players. I also think that he will be going to a team that will be lucky to earn 50 points this year even with a decent veteran netminder. Why subject your most talented player to this kind of batism by fire? Why the rush? Is it best for his developement or is it just what a few clueless homer fans want to see so they have something to be excited about. If you are one of the people who just won't be happy unless Fluery starts the season in the NHL ask yourself this question, if someone was buying you a free meal and nobody but you would know where you ate, are you one of those people who would rather pull into Carls jr for that instant gratification for a burger or would you rather go to the best resturaunt in town, sit down and order a truly great meal with all of the trimmings?

I am not saying that a good burger isn't great most of the time (just an example, it could be a burrito etc, whatever fast food you like) but wouldn't you rather wait for the better meal? Wouldn't you rather give the kid time to work out all of the bugs in his game and build your pro team so that he doesn't HAVE to be your saviour every night instead of relying on an 18 year old to go out and try and win you the 20 to 25 games that you are going to win this year and take a chance on his ruining his confidence?

Sure the kid is a rare talent and he MIGHT be able to step into the NHL game and earn a spot right away on a bad team like the Pens have this year but at what cost? Why take a chance with him. For every (although not that many goalies) example you can give me of a young player that stepped into the league and was great right away, I can show you DOZENS of examples of "Potential Superstars" that have washed out.

Why take a chance at ruining this kids chance at being the best in the game so that a few homers will have something to focus on this year besides how bad their current team is. I am not trying to bash the Pens, I think that they have been an awsome team and that with 66 on the ice you never know what will happen, I am saying that if you are going to rely on 66 and an 18 year old kid playing the hardest position on the ice to try and win you the cup then I can say that you are being nearsighted and asking way too much of two players.
 

Evilo

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IGM said:
I can only tell you what I have seen happen to a couple of "potential star" goalies over the past several years and then tell you why I think it is important that Fluery spend a couple of years down on the farm.

The Kings have had two stellar young goalies come into their system during this time period and the comparison with Fluery's situation is very close. The Kings at the time weren't very good, especially on D and the Pens don't look to be much better at this point in time.

Rob Stauber had just won the Hobie baker when he came to the Kings. He was the best young goalie in the world at the time as some hockey journalists would tell you including Don Cherry. (outside of the NHL) He had set many records during his time in Min and was technically exceptional. He came to the Kings and due to the fact that they didn't have anyone else near his level of talent they rushed him into the line up. I was in the forum club for the pre game team dinner/meeting (only the players who weren't playing that night actually ate) the night he first came to the team. I talked to the kid and he was a nice guy who looked confident and ready. I had a chance to do the same thing about two months later and he was a different guy. The guy had more rubber flying at this chin then a hollywood hooker on most nights and it didn't take long for him to lose his stellar positional play in favor of adopting more unorthodox habits in an attempt to try and keep the puck out of the net. There were many nights that he would face 35 or more shots without any real D plan in front of him. He left the Kings to Buff and is out of the NHL in less than 6 years.

Jamie Storr is another good example. At the time he was one of the highest drafted goalies in NHL history. (He was drafted 7th over all I think. Remember i said ONE of) He was thought of as THE goalie of the future. The Kings also worked him into the line up waaaay to early and he too went from stud to dud in no time. He would show you flashes of absolute brilliance on some nights and then be a pure goat on others. He was given every opportunity to become a great NHL goalie EXCEPT the time he needed to develope his game at the pro level. He is playing in Russia this year with the HOPE of making an NHL comeback. He isn't even 29.

I think that Fluery has better talent then both of these players. I also think that he will be going to a team that will be lucky to earn 50 points this year even with a decent veteran netminder. Why subject your most talented player to this kind of batism by fire? Why the rush? Is it best for his developement or is it just what a few clueless homer fans want to see so they have something to be excited about. If you are one of the people who just won't be happy unless Fluery starts the season in the NHL ask yourself this question, if someone was buying you a free meal and nobody but you would know where you ate, are you one of those people who would rather pull into Carls jr for that instant gratification for a burger or would you rather go to the best resturaunt in town, sit down and order a truly great meal with all of the trimmings?

I am not saying that a good burger isn't great most of the time (just an example, it could be a burrito etc, whatever fast food you like) but wouldn't you rather wait for the better meal? Wouldn't you rather give the kid time to work out all of the bugs in his game and build your pro team so that he doesn't HAVE to be your saviour every night instead of relying on an 18 year old to go out and try and win you the 20 to 25 games that you are going to win this year and take a chance on his ruining his confidence?

Sure the kid is a rare talent and he MIGHT be able to step into the NHL game and earn a spot right away on a bad team like the Pens have this year but at what cost? Why take a chance with him. For every (although not that many goalies) example you can give me of a young player that stepped into the league and was great right away, I can show you DOZENS of examples of "Potential Superstars" that have washed out.

Why take a chance at ruining this kids chance at being the best in the game so that a few homers will have something to focus on this year besides how bad their current team is. I am not trying to bash the Pens, I think that they have been an awsome team and that with 66 on the ice you never know what will happen, I am saying that if you are going to rely on 66 and an 18 year old kid playing the hardest position on the ice to try and win you the cup then I can say that you are being nearsighted and asking way too much of two players.
Sorry your post is throrough and all, but we're not talking about Storr or anybody else. We're talking about M-A Fleury, and he, as an individual is different from any other.
I don't compare to history.
It's a matter of HIM being ready, not if Storr or any other goalie was at the time.
 

JasonMacIsaac

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Fleury, with Cape Breton has a good chance at going to the memorial cup, with Pittsburgh he will get 20 games this season as the backup, not enough for his development.
 

Jacob

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JasonMacIsaac said:
Fleury, with Cape Breton has a good chance at going to the memorial cup, with Pittsburgh he will get 20 games this season as the backup, not enough for his development.

How do you know? It's not like Caron is that much better than him.

To me, he's earned a tryout if nothing else. Give him 10 games, see how he does. If he's playing well and picking up wins, why send him back? And if he's struggling, getting shelled, then we do send him back.

You absolutely can NOT send him back after he's been the best goalie all through training camp. That would be just stupid.
 

Evilo

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And what would be the message for him?
You outplay the others? It doesn't matter, you're young.
This is the way the Pens management screwed up with Milan Kraft.
 

tom_servo

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Jacobv2 said:
How do you know? It's not like Caron is that much better than him.

To me, he's earned a tryout if nothing else. Give him 10 games, see how he does. If he's playing well and picking up wins, why send him back? And if he's struggling, getting shelled, then we do send him back.

You absolutely can NOT send him back after he's been the best goalie all through training camp. That would be just stupid.

A great point, and one that I've put forth before.

Our incumbant starter has 24 NHL games under his belt. Our veteran backup, by all rights, shouldn't even be with this franchise anymore. If Fleury were to win a spot (and so far, he has), he would not be warming the bench holding a clipboard. He would be playing, and possibly starting.

Like Jacob said, what's the harm in getting him signed now (remember the slight possibility of early free agency for MAF, should he be tempted), giving him his ten NHL games, and going from there? Caron was given a chance and has performed better than anyone would've predicted seven or eight months ago. I think it's only fair to extend Fleury that same courtesy.
 

tom_servo

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For what it's worth, the Pens will play more conservative defensively this season than at any other point I can remember. That may not necessarily translate into better defense, but Fleury probably won't see as much action as he would've a few seasons ago.
 

moosefan

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What I would like to see Pits do is keep Fleury up for 5 games or so, let him play a few then watch some as well let him know what it is going to take to make it to the bigs. Then I would send him back, thing is if he goes back he. (A) Will play for Cape Breton who is the hands on favorite in the QMJHL to make it to the Memorial Cup, (B) he will get to play for Canada again at the WJHC, and he will get to play in the all-star game against the Russians...all which is great experience for a young goalie. Though I think Fleury would do fine if kept up this year the last thing you want is your future #1 goalie to be kept up on a really bad team which could hurt his confidence, Aubin, Caron are capable for this season and let Fleury get the time in the WJHC and a potnetial Memorial Cup.
 

canucksfan

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Fleury at most will play 40 games will the Pens. If he goes down to Cape Breton he will 60 games. This doesn't include the playoffs. Cape Breton is a very good team and they will go far into the playoffs. This can't be said for the Pens because they won't make the playoffs. Fleury will play in the World Juniors also.
 

Jacob

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You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.
 

IGM

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I say that even if he does great that you need to send him down for a couple of years. What would it hurt to let the kid dominate in the AHL for a few years? I don't think it would do anything except build his confidence. That is the most valuable asset a young goalie can have isn't it?
 

IGM

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I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Jacobv2 said:
You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.

Not very many get it, but what else is new?

Fleury can make the team, then go back.

He can also make the team, the jump, and become and NHL goalie.

We'll see. At this time, he has earned at least those 5-10 games.
 

tom_servo

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IGM said:
I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.

What's illogical about giving the guy a freakin' tryout?
 

Big McLargehuge

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People really are interpreting this topic really badly.

I don't see a single post saying he's better than Roy.
I don't see a single post saying he's gonna do anything in the NHL this season.

It's only about how he's done in the pre-season, but I guess that's not allowed because he's hyped :dunno:
 

iamcaper

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First question, why is everybody crapping on MacIsaac?!! He's always been one of the first guys to provide info where he can and help out whenever he can. He has his opinion and if it differs from yours does it make it wrong? The guy has seen Fleury a ton over the last two years, and being from Cape Breton I've seen him a good number of times myself, so he obviously can speak from experience on what this kids strengths and weaknesses are. Cut him some slack and give him a break man. It's a discussion, not a debate or insult festival.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with giving Fleury a tryout of 5 - 10 games but, "in my opinion", I don't think it is in Pittsburgh's best interest to allow two of it's best young goalies to split time because it does very little for their development other than promote competition between one another. If you want to give Caron a crack at the number one job, give him a crack at it and let him give it his best and he may be outstanding. But as for Fleury, regardless of how well he does in preseason I really don't think he's mentally ready for the NHL. He's got a lot of talent and I would never deny that but if he goes back to Cape Breton, and I've argued this before, he gets a great chance to improve mentally in big games because Cape Breton has a strong team and a good shot at the Memorial Cup barring injuries. Let them both come along at their own pace. Fleury may be different from past goalies who were brought up at a young age and had their development destroyed by it but can you honestly say you want to risk that? Especially if your a fan of Pittsburgh and hockey in general.

The kid is good, really good, and he's very young. Wait for 2 years and you'll have him for the next 15. Don't rush him.
 

canucksfan

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Jacobv2 said:
You're missing the point. There's no harm in giving him at least a tryout, say 5-10 games, and going from there. If he's only average, or below average, and/or not earning the necessary playing time, we can send him back to Cape Breton.

It's not like, if he makes the team, he HAS to stay with us for the entire year.
Giving him a tryout isn't bad but I think if the Pens keep him for more than 10 games that's a problem.

Even if he does play well he will only play at most 40 games. In Cape Breton he wll play 50-60 games. Cape Breton has a really good team and it would be better if he got experience in the playoffs. Pittsburgh is not going to make the playoffs. He would also be playing in the World Juniors.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Well, the argument here is that Fleury is ready, especially mentally, for the NHL.

He obviously has the talent.

The Pens need to decide if he can develop better in the NHL or the Q. Will it do Fleury much good to waste a year stoning younger and less developed players?

He may be ready for the NHL, that is something the Pens will have to decide.

Fleury has earned at least a tryout by his play so far. He has been the Penguins best goalie.

Some are also under the indication that Fleury won't get much playing time. Well, if he is the best goalie, he is going to be the starter.

If Fleury is on the team, we won't be pulling any Roloson/Fernandez stuff. Fleury will likely play. Otherwise there is no point in keeping him.
 

Sammy*

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IGM said:
The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him.
Amazing.
In the real world , Rob Stauber was never, ever hailed as a potentially great goalie. Borderline NHL'r was all most people was ever thought he would be.
With respect to Storr, highly touted, but never was there the degree of upside people think that Fleury has.
The remainder of your points have some merit.
 

IGM

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Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro. I am not saying that he or Storr was in the same league as Fluery I am saying that they were both highly touted prospects who were rushed into the NHL and then busted. It doesn't mean that Fluery will, but I would ask you to show me ONE rookie goalie who came into the league as an 18 year old on an awful team that turned out to be a truly great goalie.
 

IGM

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I would hardly say that he came into a worse team than the Pens will be this year. That team was allot better. also the age difference between the three is pretty big.
 

Sammy*

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IGM said:
Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro. .
All sorts of guys won the Hobey Baker & were not highly thought of before or after.
With respect to point 2, I say BS. I have followed hockey fo a very long time & ihave absoloutly no recollection of Stauber EVER been highly thought of. If you find me any sort of confirmation that this is true,I fold my tent
 
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