OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V - Who wears the devil's horns..Vegans or Omnivors? Edition

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Kriss E, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    Appreciate the effort, I really do. But, I've read through both the Guyton and Baynes. The point was more to see how much he could substantiate both his claims and the terms he's using as he keeps mentioning no one knows anything about the science, as well as provide solid evidence based research.
     
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  2. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    I'm aware, but that rat study isn't very good, it won't appeal to someone as knowledgeable as Andrei. I decided to present a valid argument against excess dairy or animal protein that a good scientist might actually use.

    There's a good takedown here:
    The Curious Case of Campbell's Rats - Does Protein Deficiency Prevent Cancer? - The Weston A. Price Foundation

    But the general, widely-known critique is that the rats that got cancer on the high-caseine diet were fed a diet of 20% casein protein. That's completely absurd.

    There are any number of foods that would kill you if you relief on them for 20% of your calories. For example, if you got 20% of your calories from spinach, you would be getting 20 grams a day of oxalic acid, and then you would die. Nobody's going to do that though, and thus it's irrelevant.
     
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  3. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    Skimmed through it, but it caught my attention. I'll try to read it with a rested mind. Thanks man.
     
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  4. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    Damn lol, you're saving me the trouble of looking these up.

    If anyone has more of these studies I'd love to read up on them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
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  5. DramaticGloveSave

    DramaticGloveSave Voice of Reason

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    The Weston A. Price foundation is literally funded by animal agriculture industries which is ironic since Price himself was a vegetarian.
     
  6. Treb

    Treb Moderator

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    1- Most protein, sugars and lipids feed cancer cells.

    2- Some of them may have some effect, some of them don't. Cancer is way more complex than just eat veggies.

    3- Actually, as far as I've read, it's fat and not protein that would affect type 2 diabetes. Studies also shows this is highly related to the body fat percentage.
    Meat Intake and Insulin Resistance in Women without Type 2 Diabetes
    4- That's why there is a debate on this now and why we see more and more antibiotics/hormone free product.

    5- Casein is actually great as it provides lots of essential amino acids. Unless you milk a cow dry, you'll be fine.
    The Effects of Casein
    There is actually research hinting at a beneficial effect in some type of cancers. I found a study where it promoted the growth of 2/8 cell types (the 2 being prostate cancer cell lines).

    6. It seems you missed the point. It's not the fact we have canine teeth, it's how they are shaped. Our canine teeth are definitely not for chewing veggies. They are indeed under-developped compared to carnivorous species since we have been eating cooked meat for several hundreds of thousands year.

    7- What does that have to do on whether humans are herbivores or not?

    8- See point 8

    9. We have jaws adapted to cooked meat which may or may have not helped our intellectual evolution. We are omnivores, so we will indeed have a digestive systems able to digest some parts of the vegetables. I don't think anyone claims we are carnivores.
     
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  7. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    Here's the original study:
    Effect of Protein Deprivation of Male Weanling Rats on the Kinetics of Hepatic Microsomal Enzyme Activity | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

    You don't need funding from the animal agriculture industry to look it up. The abstract is available for free. It explicitly states that they tested a diet of 20% casein.
     
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  8. DramaticGloveSave

    DramaticGloveSave Voice of Reason

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    These aren't stupid men, they obviously had a purpose. And the fact they are doing these studies on rats throws the "vegan agenda" theory out the window.
     
  9. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    What the study might be showing is that megadosing casein protein (20% of calories) is bad for you. A lot of things are bad if you megadose them including coffee, vitamin A, calcium, and spinach.
     
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  10. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    Some plant-based foods that I'd love to try:

    1) The pink chocolate that they just started commercializing. I can't get my hands on any. I don't want the kit Kat version. I want something bark-like, which they keep showing in photos.

    2) Fresh, unsweetened soy milk and coconut milk without the additives. I don't want fake micronutrients like vitamin A acetate, zinc oxide, and vitamin D2, the latter of which is actually bad for you. I also don't need added sugar.

    3) Whole spud aincorn wheat. That's the original variety of wheat that our ancestors ate 2,000 years ago, it has a different number of chromosomes, etc. In fairness I can get this pretty quickly off amazon, I just need to put in a bit of effort.

    4) Wattle-seed based tea, looks straightforward but I have not gotten around to it.

    5) Strawberry-rhubarb pie. It won't help with weight loss, but it tastes great. Unfortunately, I just can't find any rhubarb around here.
     
  11. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    Point 9 was a strange one.

    We're indeed omnivores, with the apparatus to handle both plant and animal matter. On that spectrum of omnivores, we're closer to the herbivore than the carnivore end and that also reflects in our biology. Some say we've any caracteristics of an animal that would preferentially seek and eat fruit, which does make sense to me. We do not need meat to survive though and we can thrive on a vegan diet. But, we can't digest cellulose, we can't synthesize B12 from our gut, we're most efficient at absorbing iron from heme sources.


    My personnal takeaway is to eat more plant based items. Much more. And, cut down on the meat further than I already have, if only for our planet.
     
  12. SquiddFX

    SquiddFX #Seanski

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    I remember watching a show about regions where people live the . Okinawa, the Greek island of Icaria, Sardinia, Nicoya, etc. I noticed a few patterns between them all like the fact that most are islands surrounded by salt water, lots of seafood in their diets, along with fruit and veg. Basically a combination of factors specific to each region to create the best environment to live longer.

    Has anyone actually figured out why these regions have the longest lifespan or is it all still a mystery? I'm curious to find out the answer.
     
  13. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    Which nobody has actually denied here. For some reason though, some vegans won't stop at anything unless they completely demonize animal protein.
     
  14. mariolemieux66

    mariolemieux66 Registered User

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    I should have explained myself better and added more details about the experiment they did. Before and after they had the "violent" man coming in and sit in a chair and just breathing, they had other people doing the same thing and monitored the vegetation and they find out they feel differently depending on who was in the room.
     
  15. holy

    holy PhD in slinging D

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    Wait so is whey protein bad for you? Asking for a friend.
     
  16. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    They found that the Eskimos increased their carb intake by almost 30-40% throughout that period.
    Changes In Eskimo Diet Linked To Increase In Heart Disease
    Increase in the intake of refined carbohydrates and sugar may have led to the health decline of the Greenland Eskimos

    You are right, everybody eventually dies. Personally, as I said multiple times, I preach a non-restrictive habit of eating in terms of food group. It is the most realistic and sustainable diet based on my experience. What I do take exception with is demonizing animal products.
    The casein - rat experiment is a perfect example of this.
     
  17. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    You are not understanding the simple point.
     
  18. HBDay

    HBDay "I ****ing LOVE it"

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    I know nobody likes to do work themselves. But really my man you are going to better off sourcing similar things yourself.

    I hate dropping this but I'm an accomplished chef with a strong penchant for natural healthy foods.

    The coconut milk should be no problem finding a canned coconut milk with 2 ingredients. Some cans have 5 or so ingredients. When I'm shopping for coconut milk I just look at the back and if it has anything other than coconut as an ingredient, I will not buy it, at all. But going back to my nobody wants to do work comment, the best coconut milk you are going to get is no coconut milk. When you are visiting somewhere that grows coconut put coconut as a desired part of your diet.

    It's the same with the rest of your wants. Don't try to find them, try to find other local natural ingredients that are better super-foods by virtue of being fresher and more natural, the only problem being that nobody has thrown enough money and marketing at them to make them noticed.

    But my man, Strawberry Rhubard Pie? Come on man, if you died tomorrow I'd feel bad for you because you shouldn't have to try to find strawberry rhubarb pie mom would make that every early summer where I'm from. An example of being regional and local in your diet.
     
  19. ECWHSWI

    ECWHSWI bought a MB jersey

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    it's on the book cover.

    great research you made there... :laugh:
     
  20. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    [​IMG]

    Don't be condescending. You're doing it to feel high and mighty about yourself, but really you're just coming off as uninformed and self-righteous.

    First of all my post was largely intended for humor, and given that you missed that you should definitely get off your high horse.

    Second, we all eat some imported foods, telling people that they should eat 100% local (no coconut, no wattle seed, no pink chocolate, etc) makes you look terribly ignorant. Do you drink coffee? wine? tea? Are they all grown near Montreal? lol. I sincerely doubt that there's no coffee, tea, or wine in your restaurants.

    Third, some foods are in fact harder to find, and that varies based on where you are. If you're not aware of something that widely known, maybe go back to basics.
     
  21. DramaticGloveSave

    DramaticGloveSave Voice of Reason

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    Ironic, since it seems the majority of folks here are having decent and rational conversations, and you aren't a member of that group.
     
  22. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    I wouldn't say that it's always bad for you. However, the way some youtube bodybuilders consume it, 100 grams a day or so and never going more than 2 hours without protein, mixing it with 50-100 grams of dextrose from time to time, that would be bad for you.

    Whey protein gives you an extremely high insulin spike, which will reduce fat burning in your body. It also activates mTor which reduces autophagy in your body. It's probably best to consume it in moderation, and with food rather than by itself. You also never need to add dextrose.
     
  23. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    True. To add, bodybuilders are not eating those quantities for health purposes.
    So again, depends on your objective. If you're seeking health, then you probably will just have your morning or post workout shake on training days, which is fine.
     
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  24. DAChampion

    DAChampion Registered User

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    So I kind of surprised myself yesterday with the calculation of the lethal dose of spinach. Maybe someone can go over the numbers and show that I might be off by a factor of 10.

    1) Lethal dose of oxalic acid is 15-30 grams:
    OXALIC ACID - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database

    2) 100 grams of spinach contains 750 mg of oxalic acid, which is among the highest levels for green vegetables:
    Oxalates In Spinach - Is Oxalic Acid A Green Smoothie Health Concern? - DavyandTracy.com
    So you need roughly ~2 kg or 5 lbs of spinach to get the lethal dose of 15 grams.

    3) 100 grams of spinach contains 23 calories:
    Spinach, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories
    So the lethal dose of spinach corresponds to ~460 calories of spinach, or roughly ~20% of your daily calories, which coincidentally is about the toxic dose of casein protein tested in the rat study cited by the movie Forks Over Knives.

    I don't know anybody who eats that much spinach, other than Popeye and his muscles can handle the oxalic acid. However, this does suggest that the "green smoothie" and "green juice" trend might eventually cost some lives, as they do become toxic at high doses. It seems like you would die if you got most of your calories from greens.

    Oxalic acid is famous for historically. In world war II, the people in the UK consumed a lot of rhubarb (which is hard to find where I live) as it was available. A lot of them eventually died, as oxalic acid poisoning built up in their body. It's why the rhubarb leaves are typically removed from the stalks in supermarkets, because they're associated with those deaths, though the toxic dose is in fact very high. I didn't know about this until recently. A while back I brought a strawberry-rhubarb pie to a party which included some kids, a mother asked me if I removed "the toxic part of the rhubarb", I had no idea what she meant so I got scared watching the kids running around, and didn't serve the pie. I looked it up after. It turns out that the supermarkets remove that part for you, and it would take a ridiculously high dose regardless.

    Apparently some people are also getting kidney stones from eating too much spinach:
    Green Smoothie: Toxic Oxalate Crystals (Jan 2015) Townsend Letter, Alternative Medicine Magazine
    So that's pretty interesting. We all associate green vegetables with healthy food. They're definitely healthy. But it looks like they're truly, horrifyingly toxic if eaten in large doses.

    Though I hope that somebody checks my arithmetic. I was elite at arithmetic growing up, but now I'm old.

    It is also counterintuitive, but it does look like the juicing trend popular among vegans and others may in fact be unhealthy if done long-term or done incorrectly. People do great on it so there's probably a way or multiple ways to do it correctly.

    ETA: This pro-juicing article suggests celery and boy choy as greens low in oxalic acid: 10 Green Smoothie Myths Debunked - dummies
    I have not checked if they're actually low, but if so that's helpful. Celery tastes really nice when juiced (which I find surprising), and Bok Choy is among the yummiest greens for sautéing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  25. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    Sure man.
     

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