Finally, someone smart speaks up on the situation.

[shveik]

If the union thought decertification was a gold mine they would have done it in 92, 94-95, 99 or 2004. It isn't, decertification is worse for the majority of the union than a cap.

That depends on the cap. At this time the players and agents have the knowledge of the previous contracts signed under the union, and so would benefit from the fact that there *was* a union. If the league's offer will get worse and worse (or so they promised), or if they declare an impasse and impose a tough CBA, it could be worth it for players to decertify.

This reminds me of a saying ng that an optimist is the one who thinks that the situation cannot get any worse, and a pessimist is the one who thinks that the worst is still ahead.

 

[Brewleaguer]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=116423


Im not really pro-owner or Pro-Player, but players really dont understand that by playing hardball, they will lose.

There is no such thing as free lunch in the world.

Get the deal done so at least we can look foward to how they resolve the draft!!

Actually I think thats exactly why Buttman didn't make a 45mil offer, for this reason
"At the end of the day, you can only afford to pay the players so much. The longer we wait, the smaller the pie's going to be and the less there's going to be for the players."
Buttman knows this and the more time he waits, the less he and the owners will be able to pay the players. Thats nots a good faith effort to resolve the situation nor is it good for the "Game"

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Bettman did not make the 45 offer because BOTH times we thought it might happen.. EVERYONE thought the PA was the one that was going to...

Wed Morning.. I doubt that many of us really thought the PA was going to take Gary's final offer as that.. and NOT offer a counter..


and on Sat.. EVERYONE again thought the PA was going to offer 45?

:lol


its either PISS POOR comunication.......

:lol



Or a horrible move by the PA..

 

[Sammy*]

So we agree Regular Season Owners Power ... Playoffs Players Power ..


That's my point ..Power to the NHLPA during the summer months through a lockout..

I dont agree that in the offseason, the leverage is with the players. IMO, the players desperatly want to get a deal done now or in the summer months, cause they start losing money come October & have no real leverage again until January or so . Problem then is, they have lost about another year of salary. Furthurmore, they know darn well the offers arn't gettin any better the longer this drags out.
Huge advantage in leverage now & into the forseeable future (ie. February) for the owners.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

I think both sides lose power in the coming months..

The PA gets closer to another Non-Season, and watches the pie get smaller..

and the Ownership gets less time to sell the product and get ad-money..and the pie gets smaller..


Everyone loses as this drags on..

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

They’ll decertify. No union, no CBA, no cap, no draft. The UFA age drops from 31 to 18.

Picture all those UFAs, and picture the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Leafs can spend $60M on salaries and still make $20M in profit. The Leafs will spend, guaranteed.

And if Toronto spends $60M+, you can bet that Philly, New York and Detroit will spend $50M+ to keep up. And Montreal, Colorado, Dallas, Vancouver, … will all spend $40M+ to ice a competitive team.

A number of teams will probably fold. If we are to believe Edmonton’s owners, without “cost certainty†they’ll have to suspend operations, so Edmonton is likely done.

I don’t know about Mario and Pittsburgh. Maybe if they get their new arena they can survive, but it may be in a world where Fleury and Malkin go to the highest bidder. A few years from now, a set of $45M handcuffs for the Toronto Maple Leafs might sound awfully nice to Mario in retrospect.

the NHL teams can't sign UFA's unless there's a CBA! Even if the Maple Leafs sign Sidney Crosby, how can they play hockey without a CBA?

lets not forget the owners are locking out the players, so I highly doubt the owners will suddlenly "decide" to un-lock these players and have a free-for-all spending spree again. It's not good for the game.

 

[myrocketsgotcracked]

Actually I think thats exactly why Buttman didn't make a 45mil offer, for this reason
"At the end of the day, you can only afford to pay the players so much. The longer we wait, the smaller the pie's going to be and the less there's going to be for the players."
Buttman knows this and the more time he waits, the less he and the owners will be able to pay the players. Thats nots a good faith effort to resolve the situation nor is it good for the "Game"

so in order to negotiate in good faith, "buttman" is supposed to accept any offer the nhlpa throws at him now?

 

[Mess]

I dont agree that in the offseason, the leverage is with the players. IMO, the players desperatly want to get a deal done now or in the summer months, cause they start losing money come October & have no real leverage again until January or so . Problem then is, they have lost about another year of salary. Furthurmore, they know darn well the offers arn't gettin any better the longer this drags out.
Huge advantage in leverage now & into the forseeable future (ie. February) for the owners.

Well if you believe that the offers are just getting worse then if the NHLPA didn't take a better one then they certainly will not take a worse one .. We will see who flinches first .. but to me there is Zero motivation financially to take any deal now and I am personnally very interested how all the Draft, RFA, Unsigned Players plays out and so I guess we will see the same song and dance in Jan 2006 that we are seeing now as that is when the NHLPA has power again according to you..

 

[Vagabond]

Well if you believe that the offers are just getting worse then if the NHLPA didn't take a better one then they certainly will not take a worse one .. We will see who flinches first .. but to me there is Zero motivation financially to take any deal now and I am personnally very interested how all the Draft, RFA, Unsigned Players plays out and so I guess we will see the same song and dance in Jan 2006 that we are seeing now as that is when the NHLPA has power again according to you..

^Its not a matter of having the 'choice' to choose a better or worse proposal, they missed that opportunity already. By thinking they can still get away with a better proposal is naive! Honestly, how can the PA even fathom something like that? Is Goodenow Jesus or something, is he gonna feed over 700players with a smaller loaf of bread? :lol Seriously, how the H E L L can he get a better deal with the revenues deflating as we speak? The fact is, Goodenow is hanging on a thin grasp of false hope and thats putting it mildly.

 

[Mess]

^Its not a matter of having the 'choice' to choose a better or worse proposal, they missed that opportunity already. By thinking they can still get away with a better proposal is naive! Honestly, how can the PA even fathom something like that? Is Goodenow Jesus or something, is he gonna feed over 700players with a smaller loaf of bread? :lol Seriously, how the H E L L can he get a better deal with the revenues deflating as we speak? The fact is, Goodenow is hanging on a thin grasp of false hope and thats putting it mildly.

The NHL players were willing to give up 1.5 Bil in Salaries when the season was cancelled and decided to fight on and if you think that is false hope and thin grasp Okay .. but the NHLPA does not support your theory ..

If the NHLPA and the players were not fairly behind Goodenow you would be hearing and reading hundreds of players speaking out, because if any NHL offer went to vote it would take 370 Yes votes to accept .. You hear the occasional Roenick or player say something .. but is this was a bad as you say then it would be front page news .. The last 5 or 6 days not a single player and stepped up and spoken out. There are not cracks and as long as that continues the NHLPA has force ..

 

[PhillyNucksFan]

Forget about money for a second on think about POWER ..

This one big POWER struggle ..by 2 sides ..

Divide the calander year in HALF ..

During the Regular season the OWNERS hold all the power as that is when PLAYERS get paid ..

During the Playoffs and Offseason the PLAYERS hold the power as that is when the OWNERS get paid ...

So the power is currently on the side of the Players ... because techically we are in the offseason now due to the lost season ..

So since there is no Hockey most of the damage is already done Revenue wise to this point ..That can't be reversed or changed because that is now history.. Fans can't stay away if there is nothing to stay away from ..

Players really don't care about Revenue .. The NHL has guaranteed contracts .. The players do not care where the owners get the money from to pay them .. Every two weeks without fail (unless you have a work stoppage) the players get paid during the regular season .. It could come from the Fans, Tv Deals , Owners War Chest, owners own pockets .. They just don't care bottom line .. They are legally required to get paid ... The owners are concerned where the money will come from.. and are tired of it coming out of their own pockets .. That is why we have a lockout ..

But the players also know that the owners will need to put a competitive team on the ice to sell its product or lose more money as a result .. Fold ,move , go Bankrupt etc . .SO the players know the owners will have to spend and its the owners responsibility to grow the game and make sure the money is coming from some where to cover costs ..

Players see this as idle threats about Revenue .. it does up it goes down and it doesn't affect them directly ..

Its similar to a parent telling its kid .. Eat all your veggies or no Cake for you for desert .. Sure the kid may not get Cake that day, but eventually he knows again in the future he will get his cake and eat it too..

Wtf you are talking about?

Are you saying NHL revenue has nothing to do with players "guaranteed contracts"?


I dont know if you are in business field or not, but imo, it has everything to do with how players get paid, after all, its the owners who are paying them, based on the revenue they make!


And I see zero relevance of your logical example.

 

[Vagabond]

The NHL players were willing to give up 1.5 Bil in Salaries when the season was cancelled and decided to fight on and if you think that is false hope and thin grasp Okay .. but the NHLPA does not support your theory ..

If the NHLPA and the players were not fairly behind Goodenow you would be hearing and reading hundreds of players speaking out, because if any NHL offer went to vote it would take 370 Yes votes to accept .. You hear the occasional Roenick or player say something .. but is this was a bad as you say then it would be front page news .. The last 5 or 6 days not a single player and stepped up and spoken out. There are not cracks and as long as that continues the NHLPA has force ..

^None of this is at all related to my last statement... I'll post it again. But if you'd like to get into all that.. sure.

The NHL players were willing to give up 1.5billion. Your talking about that 24% rollback! First let me~ :lol . Ok, that is nothing but a quik fix. Ask yourself, would you like the NHL to not be in this situation again, or would you like to put a band-aid on the booboo. Again, in three years or less, that 24% will be nothing but absorbed and inflation on salaries would again be outrageous.

Don't care to know what it is you're talking about on your second rant.


"Its not a matter of having the 'choice' to choose a better or worse proposal, they missed that opportunity already. By thinking they can still get away with a better proposal is naive! Honestly, how can the PA even fathom something like that? Is Goodenow Jesus or something, is he gonna feed over 700players with a smaller loaf of bread? Seriously, how the H E L L can he get a better deal with the revenues deflating as we speak? The fact is, Goodenow is hanging on a thin grasp of false hope and thats putting it mildly."

^Ok, now.. read over once again and recap what you've read then reply.

"The NHL players were willing to give up 1.5 Bil in Salaries when the season was cancelled and decided to fight on and if you think that is false hope and thin grasp Okay .. but the NHLPA does not support your theory .."

^Thats not the false hope I was talking about. The false hope I mentioned had to do with Goodenow thinking he can get a better proposal. Did you not read my post?

 

[PhillyNucksFan]

The NHL players were willing to give up 1.5 Bil in Salaries when the season was cancelled and decided to fight on and if you think that is false hope and thin grasp Okay .. but the NHLPA does not support your theory ..

If the NHLPA and the players were not fairly behind Goodenow you would be hearing and reading hundreds of players speaking out, because if any NHL offer went to vote it would take 370 Yes votes to accept .. You hear the occasional Roenick or player say something .. but is this was a bad as you say then it would be front page news .. The last 5 or 6 days not a single player and stepped up and spoken out. There are not cracks and as long as that continues the NHLPA has force ..

All I can say is Goodnew is playing with fire here and I dont see NHLPA winning this battle whatsoever.

Owners will prevail, and PA has just missed the best deal they will ever going to get.

 

[Pepper]

The courts rule based on evidence and previous cases and the Law ..not public opinion .. IMO

You don't get the point. They have the law and they have the evidence but they do have to make a judgement call at some point, whenever that happens their personal opinion affects their judgement. Now if 80% of population is against the PA, there's a chance that the judges are also against the PA in principle and if it's a close call, that might just affect their ruling enough to give the case to NHL.

THis I don't think you have put a lot of thought in .. First you say lower AHL ticket prices and then you say players will cross at which time they will get paid again

They will get paid but not as much as they used to get.

.. If Roenick crosses then he will get his millions to play .. Then what each game ticket price is based on who crossed .. A floating system .. How would owners set prices not knowing what to pay out and who will cross ..

That system will last max one season and if it results losses then so be it, owners are ready. They will play one season with lower ticket prices to get the large masses back and then raise the prices back to normal.

.. Why should the NHLPA do this .. They don't care what the books say they don't want a Cap and certainly not linkage

Why should the PA do this? Because they claim that NHL is hiding revenues yet they have no evidence of this, when this goes to the labor court how do you think judges there will see PA's case? "We think NHL is hiding revenue but we have refused to look at their books so we have no evidence"?? Yeah right. PA loses all credibility (well it has done that already).

.. SO the books are irrelevant .. The NHLPA wants to negotiate a deal for them .. How the owners spend or run their businesses is on no concern to the NHLPA

WRONG! NHLPA wanted a hard cap which is indexed with the revenues so when the revenues go up, the cap goes as well. At that point they were interested about how the teams are doing financially. And at that point their incredible hypocrisy is revealed to courts & large public since first they didn't want anything to do with linkage as they claimed NHL is hiding revenue but suddenly they were ready to tie the hard cap to owners revenues. How pathetic is that?? You pro-PA yahoos fail to see how damaging that is to the players if it goes to courts.

.. Do you know how decertification works .. If the NHL was as you said it would why would any NHL player return to that mess .. They would go to Europe or set up another union or the NHL will have to have something in place no Pro Sport has no union .. It will only be a tatic to get lots of money for its players .. Its a last ditch offer but this explains it best .

Wake up dude, seriously. If the PA decertifies, majority of the players will never see the same amount of money again as they used to do and their contracts are just like all other employment contracts, you can be cut off any time and you only get couple of months pay. Owners will still have the most money since no other league can compete with NHL when it comes to money. Tactic to get lots of money for its players?? How??

I don't think you really understand the big picture here.

 

[SENSible1*]

I don't think you really understand the big picture here.

The understatement of the year.

 

[SENSible1*]

I get a good laugh out of the PA apologists attempt to spin the NFLPA's decertification as a big win for the players.

The NHL owners would instantaneously switch PA's with the NFL should the opportunity arise. The NFLPA was "crushed" and soon figured out that the best way to make money was to co-operate with the league to grow revenues and therefore increase their take home pay.

The NHLPA has yet to grasp this rather simple concept.

Rank the PA's from strongest to weakest and then take a look at which ones have decertified or threatened to do so.
1. MLBPA -effectively runs MLB, to the detriment of the sport.
2. NHLPA -currently being brought under control.
3. NBAPA -plays under cap and threatened decertification. Has learned the benefits of helping the owners grow the sport.
4. NFLPA -decertified, yet happily plays under the most restrictive cap in pro-sports.

Here's hoping the NHLPA is stupid enough to throw away all the strides they have made in the past 30 years by attempting the decertification route.