Fan 590 Reports Players Are Angry

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Wetcoaster

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The Maltais Falcon said:
Well, I don't agree with you.

I don't think Bettman would have put up with all the grief he's gotten over the last dozen years if he wasn't passionate about the game. It's not about the money because I know a guy with his resume could make just as much money somewhere else. You can argue that he's been bad for the league but you can't question whether or not he's passionate about the NHL.
Bettman's been a second (or third) banana his entire career.

He was an "associate lawyer" (polite legal jargon for an employee) at Proskauer Rose under Stern who was partner. He was the third banana at the NBA behind Stern and Granik. He had zero experience owning or running anything. His one claim to fame was that he was a detail guy and legal gnome who invented the convoluted NBA soft cap that appears not to be working all that well.

He was not a hockey guy and he most assuredly is no visionary based on his tenure as Commissioner. He is a classic follower and not a leader. I doubt he could land a position with the salary and perks he has with the NHL and certainly nothing with the status of NHL Commissioner. If he leads the NHL to oblivion that certainly will not look good on his resume.
 

SPARTAKUS*

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Wetcoaster said:
Smart move. :dunno: The NHL has just committed an unfair labour practise. Employers cannot bypass the bargaining agent and go to the members during a labour dispute.

Say goodbye to any chance of an impasse try by the owners.
Impasse would not have work anyway. The NHL are willing to wait as long as it takes to win this battle.
 

Son of Steinbrenner

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Jaded-Fan said:
*listens to the pin drop of silence . . . again*

How about addressing the above before spouting off about how wonderful revenue sharing is and about how baseball is not ruined by the Yankees Trots and SOS. Until then I really will take the position that I own the point.
you won the point? :dunno:

The average salary in baseball has gone DOWN since the last cba was signed and the small market teams are making out from revenue sharing and the luxary tax. (not to mention when the yankees come to town most teams sell out) Using George Will as a source is like me using Mr Steinbrenner as a source. George Will is a minority owner of Baltimore.

You know Baltimore the team that had a higher payroll than the yankees in the 90's when the yankees were winning world series. (more proof that its not about how much money you spend but oh well) yes that george will a part owner of a once succesful team that spent and spent and spent but came up with nothing. Yes that george will. Please do some research on your sources next time. I hate the fact that when we have these debates you make it so easy for me to win. Jesus man put up a fight.

Baseball is proof that revenue sharing works. You want proof? Look at what the brewers sold for. Somebody paid more the 400 million dollars for a small market team. People aren't going to invest that much to lose money.

I think its time to go back to the drawing board my young friend. :lol

have a nice day. :dunce:
 

Wetcoaster

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CarlRacki said:
Weird that you could figure this out, yet it completely slipped past Gary Bettman, Bill Daly, Bob Batterman and dozens more high-priced lawyers. :shakehead
I do not think it slipped by - they simply gave up on an impasse declaration as viable option or strategy. And as I have noted from the beginning that is no surprise since the case law, immigration law and Canadian labour law including the ban on using replacement workers in BC and Quebec pretty much put paid to actually getting a replacement league up and running.

The NHL would have to be incredibly stupid and so would all their legal advisers to miss that one. They are not -at least not since they quit employing Brian Burke at the NHL offices. :lol

Other than deep-sixing an impasse declaration, an unfair labour practise finding carries no real penalty. If you make an unfair labour practise complaint to the NLRB about the extent of the penalty (ignoring the impasse procedure) is an admonition to go forth and sin no more.

As I said it smacks of desperation on the part of the owners.
 

WHARF1940

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The Maltais Falcon said:
Well, I don't agree with you.

I don't think Bettman would have put up with all the grief he's gotten over the last dozen years if he wasn't passionate about the game. It's not about the money because I know a guy with his resume could make just as much money somewhere else. You can argue that he's been bad for the league but you can't question whether or not he's passionate about the NHL.

what does he make? 3 mil per? where else is he gonna make that? you should see the crap I put up with for 60K ;)
 

Wetcoaster

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mooseOAK said:
They can't negotiate independently but the owners are allowed to talk to the players, I would imagine.
Not in attempt to interfere in the bargaining process which what is being reported. That is an unfair labour practise in any jurisdiction. It is a basic rule.
 

CarlRacki

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Wetcoaster said:
Bettman's been a second (or third) banana his entire career.

He was an "associate lawyer" (polite legal jargon for an employee) at Proskauer Rose under Stern who was partner. He was the third banana at the NBA behind Stern and Granik. He had zero experience owning or running anything. His one claim to fame was that he was a detail guy and legal gnome who invented the convoluted NBA soft cap that appears not to be working all that well.

Bettman was actually a junior partner, which is highly impressive for a 20something attorney (he 29 when Stern brought him to the NBA) at one of the country's leading law firms. There aren't many junior partners at prestigious firms who are less than five years out of law school. But hey, why let facts get in the way?

As for the salary cap not working ... do you base this on anything?

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/sports/10719535.htm
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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The Maltais Falcon said:
Well, I don't agree with you.

I don't think Bettman would have put up with all the grief he's gotten over the last dozen years if he wasn't passionate about the game. It's not about the money because I know a guy with his resume could make just as much money somewhere else. You can argue that he's been bad for the league but you can't question whether or not he's passionate about the NHL.

Do you honestly think Gary Bettman ever watched one NHL game before becoming NHL Commissioner? I sure as hell do not think so. Actually I bet he hasn't paid attention to one NHL game WHILE being the commissioner either.
 

Wetcoaster

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OTTSENS said:
Impasse would not have work anyway.
Not according to all the "legal experts" who inhabit this forum. I thought it was slam dunk? :p:
 

Wetcoaster

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PeterSidorkiewicz said:
Do you honestly think Gary Bettman ever watched one NHL game before becoming NHL Commissioner? I sure as hell do not think so. Actually I bet he hasn't paid attention to one NHL game WHILE being the commissioner either.
He would not pay for tickets while Commissioner.

Here is comment on his knowldge of hockey from an NBA executive when Bettman was hired as NHL Commissioner. Back when the NHL hired Gary Bettman away from the NBA, Orlando Magic GM Pat Williams wondered how Bettman would fare as the head of the hockey league.

"I gave Gary a hockey puck once, and he spent the rest of the day trying to open it," Williams is quoted as saying.
:lol
 

Jarqui

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Crazy Lunatic said:
NHL has lifted the owners gag order and have requested they call their players to discuss what is going on from the owners end. Fan 590 just reported that the players have been calling Goodenow and are very upset at the prospect of a cancelled season. Now if this ESPN thing is true (that they reported the NHLPA is willing to discuss a cap with no linkage) then the end might be near for the lockout. I can't believe I actually have my hopes up again, but here goes.

Bettman clearly hasn't given up as asking the owners to start calling all of their players and pleading the owners case is a big move. If the Fan 590 and this ESPN report (which I can't verify yet) are indeed true, then there may be hope!

This is from the Sportsnet article on the FAN590 site:
Sportsnet link
"We are not to negotiate with them, but are free to discuss all lockout concerns in hopes of a change of heart in the next 48 hours," the source added

"IF" (and that is a big IF) they keep their noses clean in their dialogue with the players as they seem to be aware of, it is not a collective bargaining labor law violation. But they do have to be extremely careful with what they say.

Personally, I think it is a stupid move by the NHL that only invites potential trouble. It is so easy to step in the crap unwittingly in these situations and the consequences can be very major if they do.

Their best move was to keep their mouths shut. There's plenty of pressure on the process now.
 

MagnusJondus

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Wetcoaster said:
Not according to all the "legal experts" who inhabit this forum. I thought it was slam dunk? :p:

The key to declaring impasse is to show that you have exhausted all other avenues to reaching an agreement and have done so "in good faith." In lifting the gag order, the NHL is trying to jumpstart further negotiation, not collude around the NHLPA brass...

Once again showing they are doing everything they legally can to settle the dispute.
 

Wetcoaster

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CarlRacki said:
Bettman was actually a junior partner, which is highly impressive for a 20something attorney (he 29 when Stern brought him to the NBA) at one of the country's leading law firms. There aren't many junior partners at prestigious firms who are less than five years out of law school. But hey, why let facts get in the way?

As for the salary cap not working ... do you base this on anything?

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/sports/10719535.htm
Not according to the bio I read when he was first hired - he was an associate lawyer. Maybe he buffed his resume?

The NBA is having problems according to Stern who wants to eliminate the exceptions and harden the cap.
 

mooseOAK*

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Wetcoaster said:
Not in attempt to interfere in the bargaining process which what is being reported. That is an unfair labour practise in any jurisdiction. It is a basic rule.
The rank and file members aren't bargaining with anyone. A lot of them are employed in the AHL and being paid by these same guys that you say aren't allowed to talk to them.
 

Wetcoaster

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MagnusJondus said:
The key to declaring impasse is to show that you have exhausted all other avenues to reaching an agreement and have done so "in good faith." In lifting the gag order, the NHL is trying to jumpstart further negotiation, not collude around the NHLPA brass...

Once again showing they are doing everything they legally can to settle the dispute.
UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..... Yes. As I have said constantly from day one when the issue of a bargaining impasse was first broached on these boards.

The "legal experts" to whom I referred have no discernable legal training and obviously have not read the case law on a bargaining impasse. They do not know the law.

My post was rife with irony.
 

Wetcoaster

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cleduc said:
This is from the Sportsnet article on the FAN590 site:
Sportsnet link
"We are not to negotiate with them, but are free to discuss all lockout concerns in hopes of a change of heart in the next 48 hours," the source added

"IF" (and that is a big IF) they keep their noses clean in their dialogue with the players as they seem to be aware of, it is not a collective bargaining labor law violation. But they do have to be extremely careful with what they say.

Personally, I think it is a stupid move by the NHL that only invites potential trouble. It is so easy to step in the crap unwittingly in these situations and the consequences can be very major if they do.

Their best move was to keep their mouths shut. There's plenty of pressure on the process now.
Hilarious. Thank you for the laugh.

Self-serving statements are punted by judges and board members - they look at conduct.
 

CarlRacki

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Wetcoaster said:
Not according to the bio I read when he was first hired - he was an associate lawyer. Maybe he buffed his resume?

The NBA is having problems according to Stern who wants to eliminate the exceptions and harden the cap.

In the link I provided there's a quote from a former colleague (and current Proskauer attorney) saying Gary was a junior partner in his 20s. Gary's not the one claiming it. If you provide something that contradicts it, great. But don't expect me to trust your memory of something you said you read almost a dozen years ago.

The salary cap has served the NBA very well for almost two decades. The fact that the league (and players, for that matter) want to make changes in the cap's administration is natural. But the fact remains that both sides are committed to the cap.
 
Feb 24, 2004
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Jaded-Fan said:
I am still waiting for you to respond to my points on this, but have had about a week of silence. But to :teach: you again, to which I expect no response . . . again . . . Baseball proves just the opposite . . .

2000:
The highest spender The NY Hogs, spent $95,285,187, the lowest spenders, The Twins, spent $16,723,347, or 5.7 times as much.

2001:
The highest spender The NY Hogs, spent $114,457,768, the lowest spenders, The Twins, spent $27,411,912, or 4.18 times as much.

2002:
The highest spender The NY Hogs, spent $138,423,649, the lowest spenders, The Tampa Bay, spent $35,882,301, or 3.86 times as much.

2003:
The highest spender The NY Hogs, spent $169,588,508, the lowest spenders, The Tampa Bay, spent $27,434,258, or 6.18 times as much.

2004:
The highest spender The NY Hogs, spent $187,918,394, the lowest spenders, The Tampa Bay, spent $24,427,167, or 7.7 times as much.


In 2005 the hogs are projected to spend considerably over $200 million. How has a luxury tax slowed them in the least?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20....comparison.ap/

Final ps:

A study done that fairly conclusively shows the disparity set forth above adversly and quantifiably leads to massive competitive imbalance. So it definately does matter and undermines the credibility of a sport.

http://www.economicsbulletin.uiuc.edu/2003/volume1/EB-03A10003A.pdf

Now some quotes from George Will commenting on the blue ribbon panel he along with Paul Volker, a couple of others chaired to 'fix' baseball's problems. The points made still have relevence as the fixes of the 2002 CBA are proving to be no fixes at all, as shown above, the same disparities exist and divergence between spending is even more pronounced. None of the recommendations of the blue ribbon panel assembled before that 2002 new CBA were implimented. Some points made:

The union believes that unconstrained spending by the richest three teams pulls up all payrolls. Most owners believe that baseball's problems--competitive imbalance, the parlous financial conditions of many clubs--result from large and growing disparities of what are mistakenly treated as ``local'' revenues.

These disparities largely reflect differences in teams' broadcasting revenues. The Yankees' broadcasting revenues ($62 million) are more than those of seven other teams (Kansas City, Minnesota, Oakland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Florida, Milwaukee) (BEG ITAL)combined.

The owners' initial proposal included two recommendations of the Blue Ribbon Panel on Baseball Economics (George Mitchell, Paul Volcker, Yale's President Richard Levin and this columnist). One is increased revenue sharing (from 20 percent to 50 percent of so-called ``local revenues''). The other, to slow payroll growth, is a 50 percent tax on the portion of any team's payroll in excess of $98 million. Neither recommendation involves a new or radical concept. Baseball has revenue sharing now. It had a luxury tax from 1997 through 1999.

The union's initial proposal was to increase revenue sharing only to 22.5 percent, and (BEG ITAL)no tax. The union likes the status quo. But this is the status quo:

Of the 224 postseason games since the 1994 strike, 219 have been won by teams in the top two payroll quartiles. All World Series games since the strike have been won by teams in the top quartile. In 1991, 13 of the other 25 teams had payrolls at least 75 percent as large as the Yankees' payroll (which was smaller than Oakland's). Today, only four of the other 29 do. When the Yankees play the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, which they do 19 times this season, there is a $97 million payroll disparity ($135 million to $38 million). One day this May the Mets fielded a $63 million starting lineup against a $4 million Padres lineup.


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20020810.shtml


Here's a better question. Is George Steinbrenner an owner? He is. So why do you need a cap if the owners can't curb their own spending?


The Yankees have the most fans. How is it fair for a team like the Tampa Bay Devil Rays who are lucky to get 20 grand a game to have the same amount of money to spend?
 

eye

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Wetcoaster said:
I do not think it slipped by - they simply gave up on an impasse declaration as viable option or strategy. And as I have noted from the beginning that is no surprise since the case law, immigration law and Canadian labour law including the ban on using replacement workers in BC and Quebec pretty much put paid to actually getting a replacement league up and running.

The NHL would have to be incredibly stupid and so would all their legal advisers to miss that one. They are not -at least not since they quit employing Brian Burke at the NHL offices. :lol

Other than deep-sixing an impasse declaration, an unfair labour practise finding carries no real penalty. If you make an unfair labour practise complaint to the NLRB about the extent of the penalty (ignoring the impasse procedure) is an admonition to go forth and sin no more.

As I said it smacks of desperation on the part of the owners.


Sportsnet Legal analyst Rob Becker stated last week that the NHLPA is not a recognized or certified Union in the Provinces of BC and Quebec, hence, not subject to anti scab legislation.

Do you disagree with his view Wetcoaster?
 

vanlady

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mooseOAK said:
The rank and file members aren't bargaining with anyone. A lot of them are employed in the AHL and being paid by these same guys that you say aren't allowed to talk to them.
.

Any discussion in reguards to the labor issue would be a clear 8(a)(1) violation. Here is the text You can't interfere with, coerse or restrian employees. Any discussion could be viewed as coerision.

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.pdf
 

Wetcoaster

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mooseOAK said:
The rank and file members aren't bargaining with anyone. A lot of them are employed in the AHL and being paid by these same guys that you say aren't allowed to talk to them.
What are you taking about? Of course the rank and fiel are bargaining - through their designated agent. There is a labour dispute in progress precipitated by the owners lockout and the employers cannot talk to the players about that or attempt any sort of influence on the process except through the recognized bargaining agent. Basic labour law.

The owners can talk to players but they cannot talk to them about the labour dispute and attempt to influnence them. The reports are that owners are telling players to put pressure on Goodenow to do a deal.

That is not allowed.
 

mooseOAK*

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vanlady said:
.

Any discussion in reguards to the labor issue would be a clear 8(a)(1) violation. Here is the text You can't interfere with, coerse or restrian employees. Any discussion could be viewed as coerision.

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.pdf
There is a long way between having a discussion with someone and coercing them, as in from explaining their position to trying to organize them against their leadership.
 

Jarqui

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vanlady said:
.

Any discussion in reguards to the labor issue would be a clear 8(a)(1) violation. Here is the text You can't interfere with, coerse or restrian employees. Any discussion could be viewed as coerision.

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.pdf

I agree. Maybe one has to actually see some of the actual grievances raised to believe how strictly this is held. An employer/owner cannot influence the bargaining process with direct contact with the players in any way, shape or form or they get absolutely hammered for their transgression.

True story: a group of workers drafted a petition to be signed by union workers against their bargaining unit during the collective bargaining process. They needed to make photo copies of it. They went to the office and asked an assistant manager (young, inexperiencd woman) if they could. She made three photo copies for them. The union nailed the company for it.

It is a very delicate territory.
 
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