European Billionaires awaiting season cancellation

[red devil]

Part of thye reason AK Bars is spending money like crazy, is because it is the 1000th anniversary of the city. They want to celebrate it by winning the RSL title, I'm not sure if they will continue to spend the same way next year, especailly if they don't win the championship.

 

[Riddarn]

Why So ??

I would have thought that the SEL having all its own stars back home to see them game in and game out would be very interesting to Euro's

People would not care about a league that spans outside their own country. As a Swede, I want to see Daniel Alfredsson play for Frölunda, Mats Sundin play for Djurgården and Peter Forsberg and Markus Näslund play for Modo. And I want these teams to play eachother, not some team from the other side of europe that I've never heard about. In fact, I rather watch my swedish league without those stars than see a transnational "major league" like the NHL in europe. Many will agree with me on this.

 

[wazee]

Ambramovich is worth $10.6 billion. Here are the NHL individual billionaires:

LAK- Anschutz: $5.2 billion
STL- Laurie $2.8 billion
BUF- Golisano: $1.6 billion
COL- Kroenke: $1.4 billion
VAN- McCaw: $1.2 billion

Just a note...The 1.4B for Kroenke is what Forbes lists under his name. Forbes also lists 3.0B for his wife, Ann, the Walmart heir. I do not know why Forbes lists them separately...

 

[kerrly]

How long is AK Bars going to keep pissing away money? They'll get sick and tired of underwriting a hockey club sooner or later, just like NHL owners have.

They won't be able to keep it up for much longer, unless regular losses of $50m or more are something they can live with. There arena holds 3,800 and the average ticket price is something like $5 Cdn. I'm not sure, but I highly doubt there are many other forms of substantial revenue to put a significant dent in there astronomical losses.

 

[Isles72]

I'll always love a team with the name ''Freezers'' as in the German Leagues ''Hamburg Freezers''

bring it on , give the nhl a good run

 

[wazee]

Another thing that is getting at me. Teams in America say the way to increase their fan base it to build bigger and better areas. Because we all know that improves the amount of butts in seats. But when Europe does this, they don't have the fan base to support larger arenas? Confused, hell I am.

I have had it with the greed as it is making me completely grumpy.

Building bigger arenas does not increase the fan base. I do not think anyone has made that claim. Building a bigger arena can, however, increase revenue both by allowing for increased attendance and by higher ticket prices for an arena with more amenities. In other words, if a team is selling out a small arena, building a larger arena will bring in more money. If a team is not selling out in a small arena, building a bigger one will not help.

I am with you on the grumpy part, though.

 

[Whakahere]

Building bigger arenas does not increase the fan base. I do not think anyone has made that claim. Building a bigger arena can, however, increase revenue both by allowing for increased attendance and by higher ticket prices for an arena with more amenities. In other words, if a team is selling out a small arena, building a larger arena will bring in more money. If a team is not selling out in a small arena, building a bigger one will not help.

I am with you on the grumpy part, though.

But many teams in the NHL are not selling out .. or even close but are looking to build bigger and better arena's. E.G. the penguins.

I think that larger arenas do help increase the fan base. I think that you have to remember that here in Europe many people PLAY hockey too. YOu can't say that in Southern USA but they still get a big turn out.

 

[FrozenPond]

I think the people who deny the possibility of a future where European teams compete for the best talent in the world are whistling past the graveyard. Don’t think in terms of 2005; think in terms of 2010, 2015.

Where will the 200 best hockey players in the world play in the future? Concentrated in a North American league? Concentrated in a European league? Scattered across many leagues? Concentrated in a league with teams in both North America and Europe?

A Super League wouldn’t need to compete with the salary structure of the “old†NHL, those days are over. A Super League wouldn’t need 30 teams, 30 state of the art arenas or 30 billionaire owners. 6-12 teams are all that’s required to concentrate the best hockey players in the world into a single league. If arenas don’t exist today, they can be built in the future. In 2015 Crosby and Ovechkin might be playing in a Super League with teams in cities like Toronto, Montreal, New York, Moscow, Stockholm, Berlin.

The NHL has said it cannot continue to exist without their mythical cost certainty. The players have shown no desire to agree to cost certainty. If the NHL is telling the truth, and they are unable to achieve cost certainty in the future, then the logical conclusion is that the NHL will simply fade into oblivion.

Jarome Iginla is one of the best hockey players on the planet. He’s looking for a job and the Flames don’t have one to offer. Iginla will not be flipping burgers next year, he will be playing hockey in Europe, and he will be well compensated for his services. The best hockey players in the world will not have trouble finding jobs in the short term or the long term. They won’t make $10 mil per season, but they will make handsome money, they will have careers playing hockey, and they will have enough money to live happily ever after when they retire from the game.

The NHL has created a vacuum, and that vacuum will be filled. Maybe the NHL can get its act together before it’s too late. Maybe the NHL can re-fill its self-created vacuum. But it’s dangerous to create such a vacuum; it just might be filled by a different league, a different group of owners.

 

[CarlRacki]

According to Forbes the NHL owner with the highest personal fortune is Anschutz (LA) at 5.2 billion, Roman Abramovich personal wealth is listed at 11.6 billion. If you want to get into corporate ownership, well there is fun, I can think of at least 3 of the top 20 oil companies in the world that own hockey teams in Russia. And you wonder why AK Bars Kazan has a budget of 60 million a year.

Actually, Forbes lists Abramovich at $10.6 million
Forbes also lists:

LAK- Anschutz: $5.2 billion
STL- Laurie $2.8 billion
BUF- Golisano: $1.6 billion
COL- Kroenke: $1.4 billion
VAN- McCaw: $1.2 billion

Now, if you do the math, those five alone are worth $12.2 billion, i.e. more than Abramovich. Hence, your claim that the Russian owner is worth more than all 30 NHL owners combined is bunk.

As for a $60 million budget .... that's less than all but a handful of NHL teams.

 

[DuklaNation]

One thought one of the Russian owners in this pact is richer than all 30 NHL owners combined.

Wow, richer than the Ontario Teachers Pension fund (Toronto Maple Leafs)? Doesnt Disney own Anahem?

I think this is an absurd exaggeration. I'll forgive your idiocy and assume you took that from the article.

 

[jekoh]

One also has to look at the support of the World Junior Hockey Tournaments as a bit of a guage of how limited the appeal of hockey is in Europe.

You obviously mean "how limited the appeal of junior hockey is in Europe", which sounds pretty irrelevant.

 

[s7ark]

According to Forbes the NHL owner with the highest personal fortune is Anschutz (LA) at 5.2 billion, Roman Abramovich personal wealth is listed at 11.6 billion. If you want to get into corporate ownership, well there is fun, I can think of at least 3 of the top 20 oil companies in the world that own hockey teams in Russia. And you wonder why AK Bars Kazan has a budget of 60 million a year.

Sorry, I still don't see your point. No one is debating that Roman doesn't have money. He just can't match some of the NHL company owned teams with his personal fortune.

If you are saying he could afford an NHL franchise or a Euro superleague one, you are correct, But how many Romans are there in Europe? Or are you saying he will own a number of teams?

 

[jekoh]

In other words, if a team is selling out a small arena, building a larger arena will bring in more money. If a team is not selling out in a small arena, building a bigger one will not help.

Slavia Prague were not selling out their small arena last season. They're not selling out the new Sazka arena either, but they've definitely increase the attendance (about a 200% increase).

I don't think Cologne used to sell out their former arena either.

Lots of football teams did that too (not selling out, then moving or redeveloping the ground and suddenly getting much bigger crowds).

 

[Luc Labelle]

They won’t make $10 mil per season, but they will make handsome money, they will have careers playing hockey, and they will have enough money to live happily ever after when they retire from the game.

The NHL has created a vacuum, and that vacuum will be filled. Maybe the NHL can get its act together before it’s too late. Maybe the NHL can re-fill its self-created vacuum. But it’s dangerous to create such a vacuum; it just might be filled by a different league, a different group of owners.

The first part of your quote would apply to the players if they accepted the latest NHL proposal. They would still be paid handsomely... and if the revenues doubled the cap would double. Not only that, they would have a 50/50 split in profits above the negotiated amount. They could conceivably make significantly more than they do now if they chose to make the sport grow. And grow it could, if any attention was given to the on-ice product instead of the bottom of their wallets.

The vacuum you describe in the second part of the quote is being created by the NHLPA by holding out for a deal from the NHL that would not be available to them in any other hockey league in the world.

 

[riz]

The reason it has never worked in Europe is a lack of 3 things. Infrastructure, well that is gone, heck even Manchester England has an NHL size arena now. 2. TV, thanks to the lockout the european TV contracts are becoming very lucrative, in some circles they are saying there deals are better than the NHL national TV deal in the States. 3. Owners that financially did not compare to NA owners, that has radically changed, most of the owners that we are talking about are far wealthier than the current NHL owners.

As much as I've stayed away from the lockout discussions, I'll have to drop my two cents here.

There is no hockey at the Manchester Arena this season. There may be a building, but there ain't no hockey there. The Manchester Phoenix were put on the shelf before this season because they could not afford to play at such a big arena with the small crowds they were pulling. The franchise is waiting for a more reasonable sized arena to be built so they can play there without the fear of going bankrupt in mid-season. And that will prolly be an arena with about 3,500 capacity. And in a metropolis like London, the Knights (owned by the Anschutz corporation) were folded after they played a couple of seasons in their Docklands arena with probably more than 50% seats of their ~8000 capacity empty.

And even in Finland and the Hartwall Arena, it ain't that busy...atleast it wasn't last spring when I visited and caught some playoff tickets to a first round series between the local arch rivals Jokerit and HIFK without any trouble or queues. Those games were far from sold out and you can bet that even on the nights when they announce crowds of 10,000+ at the Arena, the actual head count is much less.

As for TV deals, there are currently two channels in the running for the Finnish league rights. At the moment the contract pays 2M euros per year and that is divided to the 13 teams. The latest offer from another company in an effort to get the rights would pay 3.3M euros.

 

[Luc Labelle]

You obviously mean "how limited the appeal of junior hockey is in Europe", which sounds pretty irrelevant.

As I posted originally, I said "a a bit of a guage." Here you have a tournament that has existed for 31 years. In addition, you have the best players representing their countries, and you can barely scrape up what you can consider a crowd. Obviously, there is definitely at least a slight bit of relevance to the fact that a Euro Super League may have something less than widespread appeal.

Irrelevant: having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue

Junior hockey : I don't think you can discount the fact it is hockey. Would you not admit that the membership of the Hockey's Future board are amongst the biggest fans of the NHL. The purpose of this website is to follow potential future NHL players, all of which are junior-age players at some point in their careers. A greater interest in junior hockey ultimately creates a sounder foundation of fans for the NHL.

 

[Mess]

People would not care about a league that spans outside their own country. As a Swede, I want to see Daniel Alfredsson play for Frölunda, Mats Sundin play for Djurgården and Peter Forsberg and Markus Näslund play for Modo. And I want these teams to play eachother, not some team from the other side of europe that I've never heard about. In fact, I rather watch my swedish league without those stars than see a transnational "major league" like the NHL in europe. Many will agree with me on this.

Thats surprising ..actually ..

Your local stars would be in the NEW league close to home .. They would not be in the SEL .. but they may play in your hometown arena on off days ..

Strange .. Euro fans have lost their best stars to overseas and the NHL and when they have a chance to even the score and have them back in Europe and turn the tables you would not support them ..

 

[Steve L*]

Abramovich's money is filthy. He's a Putin mood change from being thrown in jail.

As a QPR fan, you have no idea how good that would make me feel.

 

[Sven]

"Bigger Arenas" in Europe:

Belgium


Germany


Estonia


Finland


UK


The Netherlands


Italy


Latvia


Norway


Austria


Russia


Sweden


Switzerland


Czech Republic


Hungary

 

[FrozenPond]

The first part of your quote would apply to the players if they accepted the latest NHL proposal. They would still be paid handsomely... and if the revenues doubled the cap would double. Not only that, they would have a 50/50 split in profits above the negotiated amount. They could conceivably make significantly more than they do now if they chose to make the sport grow. And grow it could, if any attention was given to the on-ice product instead of the bottom of their wallets.

The vacuum you describe in the second part of the quote is being created by the NHLPA by holding out for a deal from the NHL that would not be available to them in any other hockey league in the world.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m not saying that the players were smart to reject the owners’ offer. It doesn’t really matter which side is wrong or which side is right. The reality is that the NHL is currently in a very big mess, regardless of which side is at fault. The reality is that there are probably a few very wealthy people who might be more than willing to attempt to capitalize on the opportunity that the very big mess has created. The best players in the world will continue to play hockey, it’s only a question of where.

 

[Riddarn]

Thats surprising ..actually ..

Your local stars would be in the NEW league close to home .. They would not be in the SEL .. but they may play in your hometown arena on off days ..

Strange .. Euro fans have lost their best stars to overseas and the NHL and when they have a chance to even the score and have them back in Europe and turn the tables you would not support them ..

It's not surprising if you have any idea of how european leagues are structured and what makes the fans tick.

And no, I wouldn't support at team like that. Pay ridiculous NHL ticket prices for a bogus league with no history at all? A league where all teams are run like enterprises, have no junior development system at all and where instead of earning your place in this league, you buy it for a franchise fee? No sir. I'd rather go and watch the third or forth tier guys down at the local rink.

 

[jekoh]

As I posted originally, I said "a a bit of a guage." Here you have a tournament that has existed for 31 years. In addition, you have the best players representing their countries, and you can barely scrape up what you can consider a crowd. Obviously, there is definitely at least a slight bit of relevance to the fact that a Euro Super League may have something less than widespread appeal.

My point is that nobody cares about junior sports in Europe. Football junior championships have very little appeal. Still football is huge.

 

[misterjaggers]

Ambramovich is worth $10.6 billion. Here are the NHL individual billionaires:

LAK- Anschutz: $5.2 billion
STL- Laurie $2.8 billion
BUF- Golisano: $1.6 billion
COL- Kroenke: $1.4 billion
VAN- McCaw: $1.2 billion

With all of the violence against foreigners in Russia (see: US Embassy travel advisories), why would a hockey player feel comfortable bringing his family with him to play in the Russian Super League? And, the RSL doesn't have the infrastructure. The stadium in Ak Bars, for example, has about 6000 seats.

 

[Sven]

It's not surprising if you have any idea of how european leagues are structured and what makes the fans tick.

And no, I wouldn't support at team like that. Pay ridiculous NHL ticket prices for a bogus league with no history at all? A league where all teams are run like enterprises, have no junior development system at all and where instead of earning your place in this league, you buy it for a franchise fee? No sir. I'd rather go and watch the third or forth tier guys down at the local rink.

I'm withyou in this case, European Sport runs in a different way,you even find large group of fans rejecting these high business organizations. Not talking about families and people who just want to have a nice time on the weekend.

Of course we haven't got these attendances that you got in NA, but it seems to me, there are a lot more of die hard fans who even follow the team in larger groups to away games. Nobody wants then to be spread in a large arena with smaller groups here and there just among the home crowd.

Well, I would say we all should have the chance to visit "the other part" of the hockey world a little more. I attended NHL Games and it was good, had lots of fun and we could even motivate a school class of little girls to sind along with us

But don't underestimate the fun and dedication you would find among 4.000 hockey fans in old europe giving all for their team. You would be surprised.

There's one big mistake in this whole discussion: The NA system wouldn't fit Europe. It's that simple.

 

[FrenchKheldar]

My 2 cents on different aspects:
- on the buildings, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Most of the big cities in Europe have multi purpose arena which hold 15-20000 people. I don't think it would be a major technological issue to lay ice in these buildings. It would cost money for sure but it is not an improbable solution.
- on the fans, definitely an issue since sports is not a family/entertainment thing in Europe. When you don't know what to do in Europe on a Saturday night, you don't go to the local stadium/arena to watch the local soccer/basketball/hockey team play just for fun. It's just not in our culture. You go to the stadium/arena because you are a fan of the sport. So indeed put a limit on the amount of people that such a league could attract.
- same thing for TV, as long as TV doesn't develop as much as it has in the US, no way there are enough channels interested on the whole European stage to compete and make the rights go up.