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I agree with the Flyers fan, as I said in the NBC TV the NHL has done a terrible job of marketing the players the leauge and the game. This is one of the main reasons for the lack of interest, people will care if you make it seem important.

THe pure hockey fans, the hardcore fans will be there, thats not the auidence you target you are looking for that regular guy that has 50 extra bucks to spend or spend 3 hours to watch a NHL game on tv and feel like he was part of something important.

The NHL has not done this at all. THe NBA the NFL have done a excellent job of marketing. I am sure with a excellent strategic plan to market the game it will draw a larger audience.

THey should place ads during the superbowl they need that love.
 

Hemsky4PM

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What will eventually happen is a soft cap at about 30M and a hard cap at around 45M, IMO. There will be a 50-75cent/dollar tax on the 15M between the soft and hard caps. How about sending 25 percent of those tax dollars to the PA and the rest to teams operating at or below the soft cap level. Toss in some revenue sharing and a revised arbitrations system. Knock UFA status down a to 29, allow some entry level bonuses and let's get down to it.

It will be interesting to see what the final deal looks like. I think when it is done that both sides will be kicking themselves for letting a season slip away when there was a decent deal to be made all along.
 

c-carp

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barnburner said:
That's because Bettman has never learned that the things that make nhl hockey unique are the things it needs to be emphasizing, instead of trying to bend it into the shape of the other sports.
Exactly, I dont think Bettman even reallt enjoys the game or cares to learn about it.
 

mooseOAK*

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John Flyers Fan said:
Who do they have to market ??? :banghead: :banghead:

Since Bettman's been around:

Scott Stevens
Eric Lindros
Jaromir Jagr
Joe Sakic
Detroit Red Wings
Colorado Avalanche
Patrick Roy
Domink Hasek
Martin Brodeur
Jarome Iginla
Peter Forsberg

1998 Olympics
2002 Olympics
2004 World Cup

just to name a few ....


Does Stern have an easier job ??? .... no doubt .... but that doesn't mean the NHL shouldn't try.

How difficult is it to market: Speed and toughness ???

Detroit, Philadelphia, Dallas, Denver have all been good/great during his tenure and they are major media markets.

And those teams have been featured prominently on ESPN & ABC games. Result? Bupkus.

As far as what you have listed as players that can be marketed, not one American. Same thing will happen with Crosby. If this Kessel kid turns out to be something then that's a start but a US star is needed, desperately.

Nor did the Americans do well in those Olympics nor the World Cup.

The only thing that will appeal to the masses is fighting. However, that offends the hypocritical US media, violence and fighting should be reserved for football and baseball.
 

arnie

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c-carp said:
Exactly, I dont think Bettman even reallt enjoys the game or cares to learn about it.

This is ridiculous. You don't know Bettman or anything about him or what he thinks.
 

c-carp

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John Flyers Fan said:
Who do they have to market ??? :banghead: :banghead:

Since Bettman's been around:

Scott Stevens
Eric Lindros
Jaromir Jagr
Joe Sakic
Detroit Red Wings
Colorado Avalanche
Patrick Roy
Domink Hasek
Martin Brodeur
Jarome Iginla
Peter Forsberg

1998 Olympics
2002 Olympics
2004 World Cup

just to name a few ....


Does Stern have an easier job ??? .... no doubt .... but that doesn't mean the NHL shouldn't try.

How difficult is it to market: Speed and toughness ???

Detroit, Philadelphia, Dallas, Denver have all been good/great during his tenure and they are major media markets.


When Bettman took over he had a league that was ready to break into the mainstream in the US. The Rangers had just beat the Canucks in a very excitng finals. I think that around this same time Sports Illustrated of all people even acnowleged that the NHL was primed to make a big Breakthrough and Bettman his group screwed it up. Its almost amazing that they did. I hope when this CBA thing is over Bettman is quickly shown the door.
 

kenabnrmal

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Go Flames Go said:
I agree with the Flyers fan, as I said in the NBC TV the NHL has done a terrible job of marketing the players the leauge and the game. This is one of the main reasons for the lack of interest, people will care if you make it seem important.

THe pure hockey fans, the hardcore fans will be there, thats not the auidence you target you are looking for that regular guy that has 50 extra bucks to spend or spend 3 hours to watch a NHL game on tv and feel like he was part of something important.

The NHL has not done this at all. THe NBA the NFL have done a excellent job of marketing. I am sure with a excellent strategic plan to market the game it will draw a larger audience.

THey should place ads during the superbowl they need that love.


Jesus, the superbowl! Why didn't anyone else think of that!!!! Of course there is the little issue of $$$ and budgeting and all those fun things, but lets ignore that little catch...

Its awful easy to point at marketing and claim the league doesn't do enough. Its probably true. However, without even thinking about the money end of it, what sort of marketing should they do more. Directed at whom? Through which media? Sending what message? Its the easiest criticism to make, and possibly the laziest.
 

HF2002

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mooseOAK said:
In general, Stern's job is a lot easier that Bettman's in terms of promoting the league.
I'm not so sure about that. Keep in mind that when he became the commish, the NBA was in horrible shape. Granted, the emergence of Bird, Magic and then Jordan and Isaiah Thomas couldn't have come at a better time, there's no doubt Stern did an excellent job. Now he's got Lebron James to market. The NHL has Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, and potentially Crosby and Spezza. (gog flames go, just because I left St Phaneuf off this list, resist the temptation to complain - I've just picked a few names, that's all)

Is it any easier for Stern today than it is for Bettman? Not necessarily. They're in a better position in the sense that the game is well marketed, but Stern's job is to keep it where it is or grow it. With some of the problems the NBA has, Stern doesn't have an easy job by any means. He has to deal with players getting arrested for drugs, drunk driving, the alleged deeds of Kobe Bryant, fighting with fans, and any other problems. That's not to say that the NHL doesn't have its legal problems, because it does, but it just seems that there's more of this stuff in the NBA, MLB and NFL. Mike Danton doesn't help my argument though.

Of course if I had to choose one over the other I'd still select the NHL.
 

txomisc

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HF2002 said:
I'm not so sure about that. Keep in mind that when he became the commish, the NBA was in horrible shape. Granted, the emergence of Bird, Magic and then Jordan and Isaiah Thomas couldn't have come at a better time, there's no doubt Stern did an excellent job. Now he's got Lebron James to market. The NHL has Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, and potentially Crosby and Spezza. (gog flames go, just because I left St Phaneuf off this list, resist the temptation to complain - I've just picked a few names, that's all)

Is it any easier for Stern today than it is for Bettman? Not necessarily. They're in a better position in the sense that the game is well marketed, but Stern's job is to keep it where it is or grow it. With some of the problems the NBA has, Stern doesn't have an easy job by any means. He has to deal with players getting arrested for drugs, drunk driving, the alleged deeds of Kobe Bryant, fighting with fans, and any other problems. That's not to say that the NHL doesn't have its legal problems, because it does, but it just seems that there's more of this stuff in the NBA, MLB and NFL. Mike Danton doesn't help my argument though.

Of course if I had to choose one over the other I'd still select the NHL.

One thing that serves to make Sterns job of promoting easier is the huge growth of Rap/Hiphop. Its so mainstream these days and very ingrained into the NBA culture. Many NBA players actually release rap albums themselves. Alot of fans identify with this. They see NBA players as being just like themselves.

Basketball is also alot more individual than Hockey. Its much easier to see a guy one on one dunk in someones face. You see one or two guys on each team able to dominate. If you don't see it, you are sure to hear about it from them. Hockey doesn't have this.
Players generally need alot more teamwork to score. Goals scored usually result in a group of players giving eachother a pat on the back rather than one guy jumping up and down and screaming.
Football and baseball also have this advantage over hockey. A guy scores a touchdown and does a wild dance. Sammy Sosa takes one deep and does his world famous homer hop. These things just tend to put more emphasis on an individual. Its the flash, the razzle dazzle that seems to impress the U.S. consumer much moreso than the hardworking, quiet, team oriented play of NHL hockey.
 

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txomisc said:
Football and baseball also have this advantage over hockey. A guy scores a touchdown and does a wild dance. Sammy Sosa takes one deep and does his world famous homer hop. These things just tend to put more emphasis on an individual. Its the flash, the razzle dazzle that seems to impress the U.S. consumer much moreso than the hardworking, quiet, team oriented play of NHL hockey.

I agree with you. But then, when a guy like Kovalchuk celebrates a goal, he is accused of lacking class. Go figure.
 

Greschner4

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txomisc said:
One thing that serves to make Sterns job of promoting easier is the huge growth of Rap/Hiphop. Its so mainstream these days and very ingrained into the NBA culture. Many NBA players actually release rap albums themselves. Alot of fans identify with this. They see NBA players as being just like themselves.

Basketball is also alot more individual than Hockey. Its much easier to see a guy one on one dunk in someones face. You see one or two guys on each team able to dominate. If you don't see it, you are sure to hear about it from them. Hockey doesn't have this.
Players generally need alot more teamwork to score. Goals scored usually result in a group of players giving eachother a pat on the back rather than one guy jumping up and down and screaming.
Football and baseball also have this advantage over hockey. A guy scores a touchdown and does a wild dance. Sammy Sosa takes one deep and does his world famous homer hop. These things just tend to put more emphasis on an individual. Its the flash, the razzle dazzle that seems to impress the U.S. consumer much moreso than the hardworking, quiet, team oriented play of NHL hockey.

All these hit the nail right on the head. Hockey just doesn't lend itself to the cheap thrills of the other sports -- the "look at me" highlights and the go-it-alone personalities are alien to the hockey culture, with it's teamwork and all-for-one ethos which Americans always say they favor, but really don't. Simply watching a game for the sport of it and the competition, with the possibility of not seeing a single "highlight reel" play, or a "personality" make a jackarse of himself -- which hockey asks you to do much more than any of the other sports -- doesn't appeal to Americans to anywhere near the degree it should.

Add to this the fact that the rules are "hard to understand" (even though they aren't) and the "puck's too hard to see on TV" (even though it's not) and you've taken it another degree of refinement beyond the attention-deficient American masses.
 

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Goldthorpe said:
I agree with you. But then, when a guy like Kovalchuk celebrates a goal, he is accused of lacking class. Go figure.
I think it really depends on the type of celebration. Personally I can't stand choreographed celebrations. They actually disgust me. Genuine shows of excitement and joy however are much more acceptable. Players pumping their fists in triumph is fine. A few years back I believe Milan Hejduk scored a goal against the Dallas Stars. He proceed to dive upon the ice and do a swimming motion. That is the kind of stuff that I think borders of poor sportsmanship. It's also the same kind of thing which follows probably 90% of touchdowns in the NFL. Anyway, it seems to be part of the problem in marketing Hockey players. I would not, however, likes to see NHL players act out in order to grow the popularity of the sport.
 

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Greschner4 said:
Add to this the fact that the rules are "hard to understand" (even though they aren't) and the "puck's too hard to see on TV" (even though it's not) and you've taken it another degree of refinement beyond the attention-deficient American masses.

The puck IS hard to see. You and I are used to it, but for non fans it sure can be confusing. Many peoples believe HDTV will really help hockey more than any other sports, simply because it will be way easier for the average joe to see the puck and "feel in the game".
 

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txomisc said:
I think it really depends on the type of celebration. Personally I can't stand choreographed celebrations. They actually disgust me. Genuine shows of excitement and joy however are much more acceptable. Players pumping their fists in triumph is fine. A few years back I believe Milan Hejduk scored a goal against the Dallas Stars. He proceed to dive upon the ice and do a swimming motion. That is the kind of stuff that I think borders of poor sportsmanship. It's also the same kind of thing which follows probably 90% of touchdowns in the NFL. Anyway, it seems to be part of the problem in marketing Hockey players. I would not, however, likes to see NHL players act out in order to grow the popularity of the sport.

I follow you 100%. Can't stand the NFL because of that.

I think we should go the WWF way: before each game, they should present a 5 minutes scene of players pumping for the match and screaming obscenities at each others.
 

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Greschner4 said:
All these hit the nail right on the head. Hockey just doesn't lend itself to the cheap thrills of the other sports -- the "look at me" highlights and the go-it-alone personalities are alien to the hockey culture, with it's teamwork and all-for-one ethos which Americans always say they favor, but really don't. Simply watching a game for the sport of it and the competition, with the possibility of not seeing a single "highlight reel" play, or a "personality" make a jackarse of himself -- which hockey asks you to do much more than any of the other sports -- doesn't appeal to Americans to anywhere near the degree it should.

I hate to agree with you here, but it is impossible not to. Your point is, sadly, 100% spot on, though it certainly doesn't apply to all American sports viewers, thankfully.

And not to get too "Sociology 101" here :joker: , but the viewing public has come to expect and love "the self-indulgent individual" in sports because the media has fed it too them that way for years. It started with Roone Arlidge's (sp?) focus on the "personalities" involved in sports, their off the field life, in an effort (very successful) to being more viewers (including females) to the Olympics and Monday Night Football. An understandable tactic, IMO. Unfortunately, over the decades, that has morphed into highlighting the jackass on the field. The loudest, most self-centered child. His play? That's secondary.

What makes hockey great is that the sport just does not lend itself to such grandstanding. There are great individuals on and off the ice. But it is a sport in which team is still paramount.

The only thing sadder than the point you correctly raise is that some "fans" of the NHL would readily sell out to the aforementioned theatrics, etc., simply to make the sport more popular. Please.
 

David Puddy

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John Flyers Fan said:
If Bettman needs to learn anything from Stern it would be MARKETING.
John Flyers Fan said:
The NBA marketed the hell out of the Celtics, Lakers, Magic, Bird, Jordan, the Bad Boys, the Dream Team, Shaq, Kobe etc. etc.

Who or what teams does the NHL market, other than ESPN televising the Red Wings any chance they get ???
ESPN shows the Flyers quite a bit as well here in Northern New Jersey, John. As for marketting of individual players, I came across this earlier today, "Gary Bettman: Is he the man who killed the NHL?,"
It might not all be Bettman's fault. Hockey traditionalists such as New Jersey Devils general manager Lou Lamoriello and Philadelphia Flyers general manager Bob Clarke usurped Bettman's authority, sabotaging the league's efforts to market and promote individual players, or become more fan and media friendly.
 

txomisc

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Trottier said:
I hate to agree with you here, but it is impossible not to. Your point is, sadly, 100% spot on, though it certainly doesn't apply to all American sports viewers, thankfully.

And not to get too "Sociology 101" here :joker: , but the viewing public has come to expect and love "the self-indulgent individual" in sports because the media has fed it too them that way for years. It started with Roone Arlidge's (sp?) focus on the "personalities" involved in sports, their off the field life, in an effort (very successful) to being more viewers (including females) to the Olympics and Monday Night Football. An understandable tactic, IMO. Unfortunately, over the decades, that has morphed into highlighting the jackass on the field. The loudest, most self-centered child. His play? That's secondary.

What makes hockey great is that the sport just does not lend itself to such grandstanding. There are great individuals on and off the ice. But it is a sport in which team is still paramount.

The only thing sadder than the point you correctly raise is that some "fans" of the NHL would readily sell out to the aforementioned theatrics, etc., simply to make the sport more popular. Please.

That kind of stuff has become "sexy" to many people. They want a microphone attached to a middle linebacker whos friends just happened to kill someone while he was with them. They want to hear as much of the trashtalk as possible. You appropriately used the word sad. That is exactly what it is. Its very sad as to what it takes to get peoples attention. It spills over from things like daytime talkshows. Even sadder is the fact that this is not likely to change anytime soon. This is what hockey is up against and it simply does not look good.
 

John Flyers Fan

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David Puddy said:
ESPN shows the Flyers quite a bit as well here in Northern New Jersey, John. As for marketting of individual players, I came across this earlier today, "Gary Bettman: Is he the man who killed the NHL?,"

It might not all be Bettman's fault. Hockey traditionalists such as New Jersey Devils general manager Lou Lamoriello and Philadelphia Flyers general manager Bob Clarke usurped Bettman's authority, sabotaging the league's efforts to market and promote individual players, or become more fan and media friendly.


I know the Devils are very reserved about granting media access to their players, and IMO that is a problem that th eleague needs to step in and change.

I've never heard of any complaints from the media regarding access to Flyers players. Roenick is the most visible player in the NHL (not always in a positive way), Amonte and Hitchcock are also two of the NHL's more talkative personalities. Even Clarke himself never hesitates to give his opinion and rarely speaks in cliches.
 

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txomisc said:
That kind of stuff has become "sexy" to many people. They want a microphone attached to a middle linebacker whos friends just happened to kill someone while he was with them. They want to hear as much of the trashtalk as possible. You appropriately used the word sad. That is exactly what it is. Its very sad as to what it takes to get peoples attention. It spills over from things like daytime talkshows. Even sadder is the fact that this is not likely to change anytime soon. This is what hockey is up against and it simply does not look good.

IMO having players wear Mic's is a good thing. It's not like they're airing the comments live, they need to be edited for content.

IMO i'd much rather see the NHL try ideas such as greater access to players/teams and lockerooms ... than go to shootouts to try and increase the popularity.
 

txomisc

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John Flyers Fan said:
IMO having players wear Mic's is a good thing. It's not like they're airing the comments live, they need to be edited for content.

IMO i'd much rather see the NHL try ideas such as greater access to players/teams and lockerooms ... than go to shootouts to try and increase the popularity.
The microphone thing is actually a good idea. It's just that what tends to be played is the "we're gonna kill em", "you can't stop me" b.s. trashtalk. It has certainly been tried in Hockey but it has not worked as well. We tend to hear things like "we can do this, boys" and "100% every shift, boys". Not nearly as attractive to your casual fans.
 
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