East/West Discrepancy

Savard18

Registered User
Feb 10, 2015
4,264
3,386
Flint, MI
Flint was due to pick 3rd and they also had the 5th overall pick due to declaring McLeod defective. Their 1st round pick (#3 overall) was taken away. Good thing too, because think of the huge advantage they gained from the owners shenanigans :shakehead. My kid just re figured out the East-West head to head for this year. The numbers were slanting even more in the West's favor from when she did them earlier in the year. I'll get them from her and post them if this thread sees any renewed interest.
 

HamiltonOHL

BulldogsFan00
Jun 30, 2005
4,375
27
Hamilton, Ontario
Not sure what you don't understand. I think Flint lost 2 spots because of penalty. Windsor didn't get a pick because of sanction. Barrie got a comp pick because Tortora didn't show and they traded his rights. Non play off teams pick before playoff teams. It's straightforward unless you're conspiracy hunting.

Pick
1 Guelph 32 points non playoff
2 Sudbury 38 points non playoff
3 Hamilton 58 points non playoff
4 Saginaw 56 points
5 Flint 46 points non playoff penalty
6 Oshawa 62 points
7 Mississauga 71 points
8 Peterborough 73 points
9 SSM 74 points
10 Owen Sound 75 points
11 Ottawa 75 points
12 Niagara 77 points
13 North Bay 80
14 Barrie 89
15 Sarnia 91
16 Kitchener 95
17 Kingston 97
18 London 105
19 Erie 105
20 Barrie comp pick Tortora

so its based on standings not where u finish in the playoffs?
 

twinsdad

Registered User
Dec 1, 2014
121
49
Grand Rapids
I figured I would bring this topic back to life. Looks like the West has dominated this season. There are 5 Western teams with more points than the top East team and 5 Eastern teams with less points than the #9 West team. Are we supposed to be okay with this?
 
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knowescape

Made you look
Jan 26, 2016
419
39
Ontario
I figured I would bring this topic back to life. Looks like the West has dominated this season. There are 5 Western teams with more points than the top East team and 5 Eastern teams with less points that the #9 West team. Are we supposed to be okay with this?

Hell no, let's hold our breath until Branch fixes the problem. Most teams rise and fall in a cycle, this will correct itself in time except for a few who are immune and a few who will fail.
 

NV

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Aug 22, 2003
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0
Petes have taken 4 of 7 vs. ERI/LDN/SSM/OS with one vs. Erie remaining.
 

Fischhaber

Registered User
Sep 3, 2014
3,149
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Petes have taken 4 of 7 vs. ERI/LDN/SSM/OS with one vs. Erie remaining.

Yeah and SSM put up 8 goals in both games vs Oshawa (before they sold). Small samples don't mean very much in my opinion.
 

dirty12

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
9,045
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As long as the schedule is weighted heavily with in division games, the mid-west will have 2 or 3 of the top teams in the league. Teams that are in the rebuild cycle and facing London 6-8 times (and) mid-west teams at the peak of their cycle 6-8 times will end up with a good draft position. (Kitchener 4th or 5th in a 5 team division 3 out 4 last seasons)
As far as the east/west discrepancy goes, the central seemed stronger than the west division 4/6 previous seasons. Next season, I'm fairly certain the east division will be much stronger than the west division. The west has been a 'weaker' division during the much of the past several years, IMO.
 
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Fischhaber

Registered User
Sep 3, 2014
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As long as the schedule is weighted heavily with in division games, the mid-west will have 2 or 3 of the top teams in the league. Teams that are in the rebuild cycle and facing London 6-8 times (and) mid-west teams at the peak of their cycle 6-8 times will end up with a good draft position. (Kitchener 4th or 5th in a 5 team division 3 out 4 last seasons)
As far as the east/west discrepancy goes, the central seemed stronger than the west division 4/6 previous seasons. Next season, I'm fairly certain the east division will be much stronger than the west division. The west has been a 'weaker' division during the much of the past several years, IMO.

I can only speak as a Hounds fan, but going to Sudbury or Mississauga has been like playing against NOJHL teams for as long as I can remember. Teams in the West have presented a far greater challenge.

SAG
16/17: 4-5
15/16: 2-8
14/15: 5-5
13/14: 6-4
12/13: 6-4

SSM
16/17: 10-5
15/16: 10-6
14/15: 13-3
13/14: 10-6
12/13: 8-6

FLNT/PLY
16/17: 5-5
15/16: 2-8
14/15: 6-4
13/14: 6-4
12/13: 7-3

WSR
16/17: 8-1
15/16: 5-5
14/15: 6-4
13/14: 7-3
12/13: 3-7

SAR
16/17: 6-3
15/16: 8-2
14/15: 6-4
13/14: 1-9
12/13: 6-4

As you can see, the West has been far better with an overall 156-118 record. I didn't include overtime losses, so that is even more lopsided than it appears.

I didn't look at 4 of the past 6 seasons or whatever, but 5 consecutive seasons where the West Division has dominated the East Division should be sufficient proof.

Considering the work I put in, perhaps you could for once admit that you have it wrong instead of coming up with some convoluted excuse. Perhaps that is asking too much.
 

dirty12

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
9,045
3,708
Your memory as a hounds fan must be a little short. If I recall correctly, the hounds missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons just four seasons ago; and have been a top 25% OHL team one time in the last eight years. It seems a normal year in that several teams (Erie, London, Miss, Petes, OS, Windsor) are all as good or better than the hounds going into the playoffs.
One of those NOJHL like teams has a winning record in five games vs the hounds this season. The other is simply a better team presently, IMO. I can at least remember as far back as the present.
 

Fischhaber

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Sep 3, 2014
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Your memory as a hounds fan must be a little short. If I recall correctly, the hounds missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons just four seasons ago; and have been a top 25% OHL team one time in the last eight years. It seems a normal year in that several teams (Erie, London, Miss, Petes, OS, Windsor) are all as good or better than the hounds going into the playoffs.
One of those NOJHL like teams has a winning record in five games vs the hounds this season. The other is simply a better team presently, IMO. I can at least remember as far back as the present.

Can we stay away from semantics and your incessant Greyhounds hatred to return to the original point? The fact that they were in a rebuild 7 years ago doesn't mean that the teams in the East were good.

You stated that the East Division has been better than the West Division in 4 of the past 6 seasons.

The head to head records show that the West has been much better for the past 5 consecutive years.

How do you reconcile these statements? It's quite clear that everything you said is total BS. The facts speak for themselves.
 

ScoresFromCentre

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Jan 29, 2016
553
185
Your memory as a hounds fan must be a little short. If I recall correctly, the hounds missed the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons just four seasons ago; and have been a top 25% OHL team one time in the last eight years. It seems a normal year in that several teams (Erie, London, Miss, Petes, OS, Windsor) are all as good or better than the hounds going into the playoffs.
One of those NOJHL like teams has a winning record in five games vs the hounds this season. The other is simply a better team presently, IMO. I can at least remember as far back as the present.

What does SSM's record have to do with anything? They're one team in a ten-team conference (or a five-team division).

I think the argument that either Sudbury (53 points, -48 goal differential) or Mississauga (69 pts, +12 GD) is a better team than SSM (88 pts, +64 GD, playing a much tougher schedule) is extremely difficult to make. Maybe you can argue that SSM is overachieving and Missy is underachieving, or that Missy is a different team now than they were in the first few months of the season, but if a team overachieves or underachieves for long enough, at some point you have to adjust your baseline expectations. Moreover, you've got to overcome a fair bit of data that suggests SSM is the stronger team.

This is such an interesting topic, and it's a shame it's descended to provincialism and bickering.
 

dirty12

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
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If you could have read my post without taking offence as a hounds fan, you would have read that the mid-west will always be the best division with the season schedule as it is. The other three divisions can be second best any given year. The central with NB, Barrie, & Niagara leading the way had been that division over most of the previous five seasons.
As much as I wish the hounds be strong for the many I know and work with from SSM, I hope your team is eliminated by Flint in round one and followed by a painful 're-tooling' period.
 

dirty12

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Mar 6, 2015
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You stated that the East Division has been better than the West Division in 4 of the past 6 seasons


No.
I stated that I am fairly certain that the east division will be stronger than the west division next season.
I also wrote that the west was a 'weaker' division 4/6 previous years.
A hounds fan took offence to that. Check my post where I state the mid-west will always be strong. You 'should' notice no reference to the hounds or any team not in the mid-west
 

dirty12

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
9,045
3,708
As long as the schedule is weighted heavily with in division games, the mid-west will have 2 or 3 of the top teams in the league. Teams that are in the rebuild cycle and facing London 6-8 times (and) mid-west teams at the peak of their cycle 6-8 times will end up with a good draft position. (Kitchener 4th or 5th in a 5 team division 3 out 4 last seasons)
As far as the east/west discrepancy goes, the central seemed stronger than the west division 4/6 previous seasons. Next season, I'm fairly certain the east division will be much stronger than the west division. The west has been a 'weaker' division during the much of the past several years, IMO.

I don't see the reference to the hounds; or, anything suggesting the east division being stronger than the west division four out of the last six season.
 

ScoresFromCentre

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Jan 29, 2016
553
185
I decided to look into the goal differential between the two conferences, as GD is considered a better indicator of team strength than record and the data is a bit more accessible, without shootouts and 3-on-3 overtime muddying the waters. It turns out that the Western Conference outscored the Eastern Conference by 299 goals in 216 games this year. (Most teams play twenty inter-conference games each year, a home-and-home with the ten teams in the other conference; a few geographical rivalries account for the additional sixteen games.)

This is a massive disparity. If we adjust that goal differential to a standard 68-game OHL season, we discover that the average Western Conference team this year would be a +94 goal differential team if it only played Eastern Conference opponents. For comparison's sake, last year's 105-point, Hamilton Spectator-winning Erie Otters club had a goal differential of +86. This year's Knights team finished at +95. These stats are skewed slightly by the performance of the top teams, as one might imagine. But consider Kitchener, who finished sixth in the west. Kitchener had a -7 goal differential on the season, but their GD against the Eastern Conference was a robust +22 in 20 games. That pro-rates to a +75 GD over a 68-game season. Not quite the '15-'16 Otters, but still excellent. This year's Greyhounds team finished with a +79 GD, by comparison. (For anyone skeptical of this methodology, Kitchener did go 16-3-1 against the Eastern Conference this year.)

So, yes, the Eastern Conference has been putrid versus the Western Conference this year. But how about further back? Well, I ran the goal differential numbers going back to '98-'99 (the beginning of the twenty-team, two-conference OHL), and while this year's results are truly a historic outlier, the past few years haven't been much better:

Eastern Conference Goal Differential vs. Western Conference

'16-'17 :: -299
'15-'16 :: -85
'14-'15 :: -86
'13-'14 :: -200
'12-'13 :: -141
'11-'12 :: +26
'10-'11 :: -111
'09-'10 :: -140
'08-'09 :: -79
'07-'08 :: -112
'06-'07 :: -131
'05-'06 :: -44
'04-'05 :: -52
'03-'04 :: -181
'02-'03 :: -19
'01-'02 :: -120
'00-'01 :: -110
'99-'00 :: +43
'98-'99 :: -27

The Western Conference has outscored the Eastern Conference in 17 of the 19 seasons since the two conferences were formed, and often by a considerable margin. (For the morbidly curious, the Western Conference has outscored the Eastern Conference by 1868 goals in total.) While there have been scattered seasons where the disparity was relatively small, these were almost all clustered in the first half of the data set: five of the six best performances for the East fell in the first eight seasons of the format (through '05-'06), with the only exception being the surprising '11-'12 season, in which the Eastern Conference actually outscored the Western Conference by 26 goals. There's a lot more to be said here, but at the highest level, this data shows quite strongly that a) a trend of Western Conference dominance exists, and b) that trend isn't likely to end anytime soon. While a few seasons of smaller scoring margins can be chalked up to randomness, as we can see in the data, the Western Conference really has been remarkably dominant over the past eleven years, with seven seasons of a +100 inter-conference GD or better. With the London Knights beginning their incredible run of dominance in '03-'04, I think it's reasonable to suggest that the uptick in Western Conference performance since '06-'07 reflects the rest of the West adjusting to the increased competition the Knights presented. But it bears noting, too, that the trend existed, though less strongly, even before the Knights became a powerhouse.

With this in mind, I think it's reasonable for us to expect that while there will continue to be exceptions to the Western Conference's dominance, the overall trend isn't likely to change without a serious shakeup in the OHL competitive order. London will continue to be competitive at least as long as the Hunters own the team, while this year's other major West contenders--Erie, Sault Ste. Marie, and Owen Sound--have all enjoyed considerable success over the past few seasons under strong management teams that seem likely to remain in place. It would take something like a Hunter/Rychel-Boughner-scale revitalization of one or more Eastern teams (something that we may be witnessing now in Oshawa) to prompt a reversal, or even a downturn, in this trend of Western Conference dominance.
 
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Fischhaber

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Sep 3, 2014
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As long as the schedule is weighted heavily with in division games, the mid-west will have 2 or 3 of the top teams in the league. Teams that are in the rebuild cycle and facing London 6-8 times (and) mid-west teams at the peak of their cycle 6-8 times will end up with a good draft position. (Kitchener 4th or 5th in a 5 team division 3 out 4 last seasons)
As far as the east/west discrepancy goes, the central seemed stronger than the west division 4/6 previous seasons. Next season, I'm fairly certain the east division will be much stronger than the west division. The west has been a 'weaker' division during the much of the past several years, IMO.

You're wrong.

The West Division has been better head to head with the Central Division for each of the past 5 seasons by convincing margins, compiling a 156-118 record.

This discrepancy is more than just London and Kitchener. Teams like Sarnia, Flint, and Saginaw that have been rather mediocre in recent years have still had overall success against the Eastern Conference. Continue lying if you wish, but it's clearly a top to bottom discrepancy found in every single team, as shown in the wonderful post above.
 
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Mayday3*

Guest
Mississauga finished 10-9-1 against the West
Oshawa finished 9-11-0 against the West
Peterborough is 7-8-5 against the West


All 3 around .500 vs the West. Not a crazy East/West discrepancy from the 3 best East teams, it's just the other East teams that get killed by the West lol
 

twinsdad

Registered User
Dec 1, 2014
121
49
Grand Rapids
Mississauga finished 10-9-1 against the West
Oshawa finished 9-11-0 against the West
Peterborough is 7-8-5 against the West


All 3 around .500 vs the West. Not a crazy East/West discrepancy from the 3 best East teams, it's just the other East teams that get killed by the West lol

I would have expected the best teams to be better than .500 if there wasn't "a crazy East/West discrepancy", statistically. I think ScoresFromCentre did a great job showing this is not cyclical. :handclap: Not sure why this trend has existed (with one outlier) for twelve years. But for teams like Erie, Soo, and Owen Sound, that have extra games against the East, this could be an advantage. Conversely, Sudbury, Barrie, NB, and Niagara may have a disadvantage playing extra games against the west. I wish I had spreadsheets to filter and see if any data could support or dismiss this thought.

This is just one bit of data, but the Saginaw Spirit were 12-5-2-1 against the East this year, for what it is worth.
 

Fischhaber

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Sep 3, 2014
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I would have expected the best teams to be better than .500 if there wasn't "a crazy East/West discrepancy", statistically. I think ScoresFromCentre did a great job showing this is not cyclical. :handclap: Not sure why this trend has existed (with one outlier) for twelve years. But for teams like Erie, Soo, and Owen Sound, that have extra games against the East, this could be an advantage. Conversely, Sudbury, Barrie, NB, and Niagara may have a disadvantage playing extra games against the west. I wish I had spreadsheets to filter and see if any data could support or dismiss this thought.

This is just one bit of data, but the Saginaw Spirit were 12-5-2-1 against the East this year, for what it is worth.

North Bay has struggled against the West this year, but have typically played those teams very tough. I don't think it's a coincidence that they also play a Western Conference style game with a good cycle, physical play, and sound defensive play. I find many of the other East teams to be undisciplined and inconsistent, prone to mistakes.
 

ScoresFromCentre

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Jan 29, 2016
553
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Out of interest, I ran the goal differential for the first six seasons of the current conference format. They're not better than the last thirteen:

'03-'04 :: -181
'02-'03 :: -19
'01-'02 :: -120
'00-'01 :: -110
'99-'00 :: +43
'98-'99 :: -27

That's three seasons of relative parity and three more in which the Western Conference outscored the Eastern Conference pretty substantially. So we have the Eastern Conference outscoring the Western Conference twice in the nineteen-year existence of the two-conference format. It's hard to argue that this is just a London/Kitchener phenomenon.

Here's the full chart, if anyone wants to see all of the data together:

Eastern Conference Goal Differential vs. Western Conference, 1998-2017

'16-'17 :: -284
'15-'16 :: -85
'14-'15 :: -86
'13-'14 :: -200
'12-'13 :: -141
'11-'12 :: +26
'10-'11 :: -111
'09-'10 :: -140
'08-'09 :: -79
'07-'08 :: -112
'06-'07 :: -131
'05-'06 :: -44
'04-'05 :: -52
'03-'04 :: -181
'02-'03 :: -19
'01-'02 :: -120
'00-'01 :: -110
'99-'00 :: +43
'98-'99 :: -27

I didn't update the '16-'17 data with the weekend's results, but I'll be sure to calculate the final tally when the season is over. For the morbidly curious, the Western Conference has outscored the Eastern Conference by 1853 goals since the inception of the format, equivalent to a +33 GD for the average Western Conference team over a 68-game season if it played only Eastern Conference opponents.
 
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bobber

Registered User
Jan 21, 2013
8,481
6,104
Kitchener Ontario
Its interesting to see these differences. Wonder what the factors are influencing this. Higher skilled players sending letters out to say they will only report to certain teams in the west? Not pointing out any particular teams. There has to be a factor somewhere that causes this discrepancy. Its just too black and white for there not to be. They use to say the QMJHL was more offense and no defense which was probably fact at one time but this is a different animal. Owen Sound is a small market team doing well but they are in the west. It really is a phenomenon when you see those stats. You would think the powers that be would be interested as to why this happens.
 

Duke Guy

Registered User
Sep 10, 2013
3,276
134
If you look at the OHL point leaders today, the top 11 all come from the Western Conference. If that isn't a east/west discrepancy than I don't know what is. Holey Moley.
 

Fischhaber

Registered User
Sep 3, 2014
3,149
1,699
Its interesting to see these differences. Wonder what the factors are influencing this. Higher skilled players sending letters out to say they will only report to certain teams in the west? Not pointing out any particular teams. There has to be a factor somewhere that causes this discrepancy. Its just too black and white for there not to be. They use to say the QMJHL was more offense and no defense which was probably fact at one time but this is a different animal. Owen Sound is a small market team doing well but they are in the west. It really is a phenomenon when you see those stats. You would think the powers that be would be interested as to why this happens.

This makes sense on the surface for some teams, but even 9th place Saginaw is 12-5-3 vs the East while last place Guelph is 10-9-1.

I'd venture a guess that not many players demand to go to Saginaw, Owen Sound, Sault Ste. Marie, Flint, or even Sarnia (no disrespect to anybody those teams). There's the odd local guy like Justin Fazio or Blake Speers, but that's true for any team.
 

ScoresFromCentre

Registered User
Jan 29, 2016
553
185
I updated my previous post with the full data set and the final GD tally between the conferences. The East just managed to avoid getting outscored by 300 goals, finishing the season with a -299 GD against the West.

I decided to look into the goal differential between the two conferences, as GD is considered a better indicator of team strength than record and the data is a bit more accessible, without shootouts and 3-on-3 overtime muddying the waters. It turns out that the Western Conference outscored the Eastern Conference by 299 goals in 216 games this year. (Most teams play twenty inter-conference games each year, a home-and-home with the ten teams in the other conference; a few geographical rivalries account for the additional sixteen games.)

This is a massive disparity. If we adjust that goal differential to a standard 68-game OHL season, we discover that the average Western Conference team this year would be a +94 goal differential team if it only played Eastern Conference opponents. For comparison's sake, last year's 105-point, Hamilton Spectator-winning Erie Otters club had a goal differential of +86. This year's Knights team finished at +95. These stats are skewed slightly by the performance of the top teams, as one might imagine. But consider Kitchener, who finished sixth in the west. Kitchener had a -7 goal differential on the season, but their GD against the Eastern Conference was a robust +22 in 20 games. That pro-rates to a +75 GD over a 68-game season. Not quite the '15-'16 Otters, but still excellent. This year's Greyhounds team finished with a +79 GD, by comparison. (For anyone skeptical of this methodology, Kitchener did go 16-3-1 against the Eastern Conference this year.)

So, yes, the Eastern Conference has been putrid versus the Western Conference this year. But how about further back? Well, I ran the goal differential numbers going back to '98-'99 (the beginning of the twenty-team, two-conference OHL), and while this year's results are truly a historic outlier, the past few years haven't been much better:

Eastern Conference Goal Differential vs. Western Conference

'16-'17 :: -299
'15-'16 :: -85
'14-'15 :: -86
'13-'14 :: -200
'12-'13 :: -141
'11-'12 :: +26
'10-'11 :: -111
'09-'10 :: -140
'08-'09 :: -79
'07-'08 :: -112
'06-'07 :: -131
'05-'06 :: -44
'04-'05 :: -52
'03-'04 :: -181
'02-'03 :: -19
'01-'02 :: -120
'00-'01 :: -110
'99-'00 :: +43
'98-'99 :: -27

The Western Conference has outscored the Eastern Conference in 17 of the 19 seasons since the two conferences were formed, and often by a considerable margin. (For the morbidly curious, the Western Conference has outscored the Eastern Conference by 1868 goals in total.) While there have been scattered seasons where the disparity was relatively small, these were almost all clustered in the first half of the data set: five of the six best performances for the East fell in the first eight seasons of the format (through '05-'06), with the only exception being the surprising '11-'12 season, in which the Eastern Conference actually outscored the Western Conference by 26 goals. There's a lot more to be said here, but at the highest level, this data shows quite strongly that a) a trend of Western Conference dominance exists, and b) that trend isn't likely to end anytime soon. While a few seasons of smaller scoring margins can be chalked up to randomness, as we can see in the data, the Western Conference really has been remarkably dominant over the past eleven years, with seven seasons of a +100 inter-conference GD or better. With the London Knights beginning their incredible run of dominance in '03-'04, I think it's reasonable to suggest that the uptick in Western Conference performance since '06-'07 reflects the rest of the West adjusting to the increased competition the Knights presented. But it bears noting, too, that the trend existed, though less strongly, even before the Knights became a powerhouse.

With this in mind, I think it's reasonable for us to expect that while there will continue to be exceptions to the Western Conference's dominance, the overall trend isn't likely to change without a serious shakeup in the OHL competitive order. London will continue to be competitive at least as long as the Hunters own the team, while this year's other major West contenders--Erie, Sault Ste. Marie, and Owen Sound--have all enjoyed considerable success over the past few seasons under strong management teams. It would take something like a Hunter/Rychel-Boughner-scale revitalization of one or more Eastern teams (something that we may be witnessing now in Oshawa) to prompt a reversal, or even a downturn, in this trend of Western Conference dominance.
 

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