Earliest legitimate impasse declaration?

[OilerFan4Life]

When would be the earliest time that the NHL could actually declare an impasse and have a chance at "winning"? Im thinking anything earlier then 18 months, and the NHL will not be granted an impasse.


Thoughts

Click to read more...

 

[txomisc]

When would be the earliest time that the NHL could actually declare an impasse and have a chance at "winning"? Im thinking anything earlier then 18 months, and the NHL will not be granted an impasse.


Thoughts

If the NHL is planning on declaring an Impasse they might as well do it this weekend. Don't see how it would have any better chance to work out next year than it would right now.

 

[OilerFan4Life]

If the NHL is planning on declaring an Impasse they might as well do it this weekend. Don't see how it would have any better chance to work out next year than it would right now.

Really? Wow, I find it hard to beleive that the NHL would actually get their impasse this early. If they do it now and don't get an impasse then their pretty much screwed, no?

 

[AM]

My gut says

Successfull application for the opening of training camp.

(bread and circus's people....)

 

[SENSible1*]

Prior to the June draft.

Clears up that issue and allows the teams time to sign the players who were covered by previous drafts but have not yet signed. (Carter, Richards etc. )

 

[OilerFan4Life]

Prior to the June draft.

Clears up that issue and allows the teams time to sign the players who were covered by previous drafts but have not yet signed. (Carter, Richards etc. )

ummm....with all the legal processes it could take a very long time to get an impasse. Not likely to happen before the draft IMO.

 

[ladybugblue]

Actually how it works is that the NHL declares an impasse and implements their CBA. Then the players union would have to file a grievence to the Labour board. Now this is the part that could take a long time as I have heard there is a long wait. Today on the Fan 590 someone had indicated that they are already at an impasse. Now I don't know how it works in terms of what happens in the meantime...can the NHL continue with business until the case is heard? Not sure about this.

 

[snakepliskin]

yes they can i believe-but the union would then go on strike--therre are some real experts on this subject on these boards--i don't think the impase is the proble it is the work visa's--anyhow going thru the impasse procedures got to be easier than these 2 trying to make a new CBA

 

[Crazy Lunatic]

When would be the earliest time that the NHL could actually declare an impasse and have a chance at "winning"? Im thinking anything earlier then 18 months, and the NHL will not be granted an impasse.


Thoughts

One full year is plenty of time, they should go for it within the next few months. Daly made the argument that they have been negotiating for 6 years.

 

[Mess]

Prior to the June draft.

Clears up that issue and allows the teams time to sign the players who were covered by previous drafts but have not yet signed. (Carter, Richards etc. )

Thats wishful thinking from a Philly fan .. IMO

Bill Daley said today that Impasse is an option to the NHL but not even a serious consideration at this time .. and is very complicated due to different labour laws in Canada and the US ..

That lack of progress will underscore whatever comes next.


Soon after Bettman formally announces the season is canceled, the focus will shift to the legal wrangling expected to precede the league's declaration of an impasse, the implimentation of their last offer and the introduction of replacement players. Daly said it's not a certainty owners will try and use this option and replacement players, "but we will look at all alternatives."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=1988864

 

[codswallop]

I'd wait for a more experienced opinion. I know that at least one of the mods here is a labor lawyer, Buffaloed. Get the feeling that DFA also knows more than his share about the law, but he posts so rarely that it's hard to know for sure.

There may well be others that could provide an objective take on this, don't really know. I guess we'll see if things don't go well this weekend.

 

[Steve L*]

Prior to the June draft.

Clears up that issue and allows the teams time to sign the players who were covered by previous drafts but have not yet signed. (Carter, Richards etc. )

They dont have to, the rights expire after 2 drafts and not 2 years.

Since there cant be a draft without a CBA, their rights cannot expire unless there is a new CBA and the Flyers choose not to resign them.

 

[Mess]

I'd wait for a more experienced opinion. I know that at least one of the mods here is a labor lawyer, Buffaloed. Get the feeling that DFA also knows more than his share about the law, but he posts so rarely that it's hard to know for sure.

There may well be others that could provide an objective take on this, don't really know. I guess we'll see if things don't go well this weekend.

This is an interesting read

NHL impasse full of legal challenges
Canadian Press
2/2/2005
TORONTO (CP) - Fans are crying in their beer and players are throwing up their arms in frustration. But lawyers are rubbing their hands with glee.

The legal route is fraught with challenges - allegations of unfair labour practices, multiple jurisdictions with varying labour laws, and potentially antitrust litigation.

Read on: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=113552

 

[Mess]

They dont have to, the rights expire after 2 drafts and not 2 years.

Since there cant be a draft without a CBA, their rights cannot expire unless there is a new CBA and the Flyers choose not to resign them.

Nope

Here is the actual CBA link and report .. Date is June to June .. NO year or Draft mentioned

1. A player who, having been selected by a Club and having been placed on its Reserve List as an "unsigned draft choice," enters into an agreement with any person or organization, other than a Club of the League or a member club of an affiliated professional league, which agreement includes the obligation by the player to provide his services as a hockey player, may be retained on the Reserve List of the claiming club as a "defected" player for so long as said agreement to provide his services as a hockey player or any renewal or extension thereof remains in effect. Such player shall be subject to the provisions of Section 10.2(b).
   
   If, on or before June 1 of the calendar year next succeeding the draft, the claiming Club makes a Bona Fide Offer (as defined below) to its claimed player of a contract, the Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for the services of such player up to and including the second June 1 following the date of his selection.
   
   A "Bona Fide Offer" is one which is for a period corresponding to the player's age as required under Section 9.1(b) commencing at the start of the next League Year, offers at least the NHL Minimum Compensation for each year covered by such offer and remains open to the player for at least thirty days after receipt of the offer by the player. A Bona Fide Offer may be conditioned upon acceptance by the player within thirty days and carries no right to salary arbitration.
2. Except as otherwise provided in this Section, a claimed player unsigned on June 2 next succeeding his draft shall be removed from the Reserve List of the Club that claimed him.

Here is the link the NHL.com has the entrie CBA and each and every issue for those interested .. http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article8.html​

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Really? Wow, I find it hard to beleive that the NHL would actually get their impasse this early. If they do it now and don't get an impasse then their pretty much screwed, no?

the NHL doesnt "get" an impasse, they are free to declare an impasse whenever they want.

however, if they havent played their cards perfectly, they could be in a world of hurt once all the court proceedings are done.

regardless, once they declare their impasse, they still need players. thats when they need to tackle immigration issues revolving around using foreigners as replacement workers.

thats the tough part, not declaring impasse.

dr

 

[Mess]

the NHL doesnt "get" an impasse, they are free to declare an impasse whenever they want.

however, if they havent played their cards perfectly, they could be in a world of hurt once all the court proceedings are done.

regardless, once they declare their impasse, they still need players. thats when they need to tackle immigration issues revolving around using foreigners as replacement workers.

thats the tough part, not declaring impasse.

dr

Biggest factor in the Impasse process is that Replacement players can not cross Country borders so the US teams can only us USA born replacement players in a IMPASSE with replacement players .. That would take 500 USA players for the US teams ..

 

[codswallop]

This is an interesting read

NHL impasse full of legal challenges
Canadian Press
2/2/2005
TORONTO (CP) - Fans are crying in their beer and players are throwing up their arms in frustration. But lawyers are rubbing their hands with glee.

The legal route is fraught with challenges - allegations of unfair labour practices, multiple jurisdictions with varying labour laws, and potentially antitrust litigation.

Read on: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=113552

I won't even pretend to know which way this could turn if it comes to impasse. My knowledge of law is limited, and pretty much non-existant in such a complicated issue as this.

I can read and understand case law up to a certain extent, but I'll still have no clue how this may turn out in the end. The limit of my hubris is to say that even the experienced in this field will have a difficult and arduous task in predicting what may come of this legal battle.

 

[Mess]

I won't even pretend to know which way this could turn if it comes to impasse. My knowledge of law is limited, and pretty much non-existant in such a complicated issue as this.

I can read and understand case law up to a certain extent, but I'll still have no clue how this may turn out in the end. The limit of my hubris is to say that even the experienced in this field will have a difficult and arduous task in predicting what may come of this legal battle.

The article agrees with you

In response, the union would likely file an unfair labour practice charge with the U.S. National Labor Relations Board, an independent agency which polices unfair labour acts. NLRB staff would investigate whether the parties are truly at an impasse, and review whether the league has bargained in good faith.

Essentially, the NHLPA would seek an injunction preventing owners from implementing the last contract they proposed. That offer called for steep salary clawbacks and a salary cap linking player costs to revenue.

The NLRB review process is a long and arduous one, says Jeff Citron, a one-time NHLPA lawyer.

 

[codswallop]

The article agrees with you

In response, the union would likely file an unfair labour practice charge with the U.S. National Labor Relations Board, an independent agency which polices unfair labour acts. NLRB staff would investigate whether the parties are truly at an impasse, and review whether the league has bargained in good faith.

Essentially, the NHLPA would seek an injunction preventing owners from implementing the last contract they proposed. That offer called for steep salary clawbacks and a salary cap linking player costs to revenue.

The NLRB review process is a long and arduous one, says Jeff Citron, a one-time NHLPA lawyer.

I do know that polictics, at least in the US, could play a role in this potential dispute.

Not in any way sure about Canadian labor practices and what each province has in regards to a possible impasse. Read quite a few articles (and postings on this board) in regards to the subject. I understand the basics of what has been said previously.

I'm pretty much looking for any info I can get right now. So my question at present is,
"What if any political influence could there be in this situation?".

 

[Mess]

I do know that polictics, at least in the US, could play a role in this potential dispute.

Not in any way sure about Canadian labor practices and what each province has in regards to a possible impasse. Read quite a few articles (and postings on this board) in regards to the subject. I understand the basics of what has been said previously.

I'm pretty much looking for any info I can get right now. So my question at present is,
"What if any political influence could there be in this situation?".

President Bush made a joke about the NHL lockout recently in a speech about getting hockey back on his visit to Canada

http://66.221.49.64/

 

[Chayos]

yes they can i believe-but the union would then go on strike--therre are some real experts on this subject on these boards--i don't think the impase is the proble it is the work visa's--anyhow going thru the impasse procedures got to be easier than these 2 trying to make a new CBA

The replacement player issue is a moot point if more than 50 of the players cross as they are not replacment players and if players under conttract with the team prior to the impasse being declared(ie AHL player) play.

I am willing to bet the NHL would do something really drastic if numbers were an issue like going to 4 on 4 to "improve" teh scoring in the game but in reality it would make it so teh owners would only need to dress 18 players.

 

[Isles72]

if the nhlpa files for unfair labour practice (if impasse / replacement player route is taken)

whats happens if any of the members of the nhlpa crosses over and decides to play under the new nhl ?

does that squash their case v.s the nhl ?

 

[no13matssundin]

the NHL doesnt "get" an impasse, they are free to declare an impasse whenever they want.

however, if they havent played their cards perfectly, they could be in a world of hurt once all the court proceedings are done.

regardless, once they declare their impasse, they still need players. thats when they need to tackle immigration issues revolving around using foreigners as replacement workers.

thats the tough part, not declaring impasse.

dr

I agree. Thats what ppl cant seem to get here: The real chance is that the League is gonna declare impasse when the Cancel the season and implement their own system to start in September... OR they may just implement their own system and open the door asap to replacements, although thats less likely.

But the first option is probably whats going to happen. So screw the PA: the NHL will be back in September... just with replacement players playing under a cap.

 

[SENSible1*]

Thats wishful thinking from a Philly fan .. IMO

Biggest factor in the Impasse process is that Replacement players can not cross Country borders so the US teams can only us USA born replacement players in a IMPASSE with replacement players .. That would take 500 USA players for the US teams ..

This Sens fan isn't engaging in wishful thinking, just looking for ways that the NHL can diffuse pressure points.

Declaring impasse prior to the draft allows the league to hold the draft and give the GM's time to line up players.

I think the assumption being made that the NHL will attempt to operate all 3O franchises under impasse is a faulty one. The clue was dropped by Cal Nichols when he suggested the Oilers might ask the league to "suspend" operations of the Oilers if they didn't get cost certainty.

What is to prevent the NHL from operating only 10 US franchises with the rest temporarily suspended?

Under that scenario the NHL now only needs a couple of hundred US residents (assuming they don't have a plan designed to circmumvent the immigration issue).

Of course this is merely speculation on my part, but I think anyone expecting the NHL to go blindly down the path to impasse is kidding themselves. They will either choose not to go that route or they will have a detailed plan in place should they take the gamble and I'm sure that plan will have some unforseen twists for the PA.

 

[eye]

This Sens fan isn't engaging in wishful thinking, just looking for ways that the NHL can diffuse pressure points.

Declaring impasse prior to the draft allows the league to hold the draft and give the GM's time to line up players.

I think the assumption being made that the NHL will attempt to operate all 3O franchises under impasse is a faulty one. The clue was dropped by Cal Nichols when he suggested the Oilers might ask the league to "suspend" operations of the Oilers if they didn't get cost certainty.

What is to prevent the NHL from operating only 10 US franchises with the rest temporarily suspended?

Under that scenario the NHL now only needs a couple of hundred US residents (assuming they don't have a plan designed to circmumvent the immigration issue).

Of course this is merely speculation on my part, but I think anyone expecting the NHL to go blindly down the path to impasse is kidding themselves. They will either choose not to go that route or they will have a detailed plan in place should they take the gamble and I'm sure that plan will have some unforseen twists for the PA.

Exactly what I heard Thunder. Look for half the league to operate with replacement players while and until striking NHL players cross the line.

I believe Charles Grantham said the NHL need to wait a full year from September 15 2004 until they can legally declare an Impasse. Look for 15 teams to play starting in October 2005 and the 2005 draft to take place in late September or not at all. They may have 2 drafts after a CBA is ratified. One for each year missed.