Rumor: "Duchene's agent is seriously unhappy with Sakic's foot-dragging on a deal"

[RockLobster]

What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

Do you know how to read? Those Avs fans were balking at trading O'Reilly and the #10 overall pick.

And good job finding one out of many O'Reilly megathreads that had a few posts to back up your line of thinking, but let me tell you something--as a Moderator on the Avs board, I had to deal with a multitude of Sabres fans coming over to our board and telling us that we were "delusional if we thought GM Tim Murray was going to trade future #1 D Nikita Zadorov for pending UFA Ryan O'Reilly". A multitude.

And those same posters would come in to the Trade Forum's thread on Ryan O'Reilly and say the same crap.

Now, I recognize that there are more than a few Avs homers here who are not doing themselves any favors...but that also describes yourself as well.

So guess what, since the Avs have to deal with a former Franchise icon being an idiot at the GM position, that's our problem. If Garth Snow doesn't want to pay the price for Matt Duchene, and if you as an Isles fan don't want him to, that's fine...but you're investing way too much time and energy into these threads when you could just ignore them if you feel that those select Avs fans and Joe Sakic are being unreasonable.

Of course, that would mean that you'd have to drop your obsession with Matt Duchene, so we'll see if that happens.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

'Two year rental' isn't a thing; and Duchene's agent is already out there talking about possible extensions with interested teams. How does Duchene with two years on his current deal & an extension for next summer already hammered out not have term?

And if all we're going to get for him are rental returns, why shouldn't we just wait until he's actually a rental to accept them? Would sure help take pressure off our young players a lot more than jumping the gun for some picks & prospects that our young players will instead end up having to shepherd in themselves.

You can't sign an extension until you only have 1 year left, and no team with half a brain is going to trust an agent and player on a year 2 promise. Too much can change, including the players mind.

 

[CodeE]

So, because Avs fans didn't want to include 10 OA, you think they were rejecting Zadorov? Your brain must be in amazing physical condition with all the mental gymnastics you force it to do.

Avalanche fans have been insistent that Sabres fans laughed off any offer that included Zadorov, yet they got him. Hard evidence has now proven that to be a gross exaggeration - Sabres were willing to deal him (not all Sabres fans mind you, but this is hfboards) and Avalanche fans were saying "no thanks" to Zadorov++ proposals.

But if moving the goalposts helps, dig your cleats into the grass and keep pushing.

 

[BLONG7]

Agent unhappy, can't imagine...

The only time these guys are happy, is the day a big deal is signed by their client...

Agents, are a big part of what's wrong with pro sports today...

Anyhow, if Sakic wants MD gone, it will happen, when it happens...agents have NO say in such matters..................the agents should just stay quiet when these things happen...

 

[Pacman33]

There's not nearly as much coming from other fans as there is from Avs fans around here.

Many Isles fans are willing to give up a Beauvillier, a 1st, and other pieces. Avs fans on the other hand have demanded as much as Barzal, Sorokin/Pulock, a 1st, and a 2nd or one of the top Isles prospects and multiple firsts. None of those are realistic values, but are constantly parroted by Avs fans.

That's not even mentioning the ask from Montreal or other teams which are sometimes worse, i.e. Galchenyuk, Sergachev, and a 1st. It's beyond ridiculous.

I would take pretty much anything said about a duchene deal with a grain of salt. Sakic doesnt leak anything and he also doesnt confirm or deny pretty much anything unless it already happened. Pretty much gives free reign to other teams to leak stuff to the media regardless if its true or not. Im honest in that i have no clue how this will end. Id guess that if he lands with isles, most people will consider it an overpayment. Im not saying they should overpay just think its more likely since sakic is looking for specific pieces and isles dont have those pieces. Theres a good chance sakic would take less in a deal from preds, jackets or canes because they have specific pieces. Not saying if i like them or not but players like murray, fleury or fabbro fit avs better than barzal or beau. Avs are pretty well situated with centers. If we move duchene, we still have mack, jost and compher

 

[Viqsi]

Avalanche fans have been insistent that Sabres fans laughed off any offer that included Zadorov, yet they got him. Hard evidence has now proven that to be a gross exaggeration - Sabres were willing to deal him (not all Sabres fans mind you, but this is hfboards) and Avalanche fans were saying "no thanks" to Zadorov++ proposals.

But if moving the goalposts helps, dig your cleats into the grass and keep pushing.

Hard evidence has not in fact proven that. You have a small selection of posts from one of many threads. What it is evidence of is that Sabres fans were not in lockstep w/r/t the whole "NEVAR ZADOROV" thing, which is hardly shocking; fanbases do not exactly represent united fronts at all times.

I for one don't doubt that there were a bunch of Sabres fans being obnoxious jerks about the Zadorov thing. We used to get the same thing all the time with a subset of Oil fans who hated our responding to their Johansen proposals with "The price for Ryan Johansen is Jordan Eberle". It's usually a minority, but a very loud and obnoxious and persistent minority.

So while the Avs fans here leaning on "THEY SAID IT WOULD NEVAR HAPPEN LOL" are undoubtedly leaning on something that has more effect on their own sense of catharsis and vindication rather than objective market reality, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


EDIT: alternatively, "Girls! Girls! You're both ugly."

 

[Ivan13]

You know, I actually found the "Ryan O'Reilly" megathread and did a little search for the name "Zadorov" to see what pops up. Funny to see Sabres fans post things like:



or



But here's my favorite, a Sabres fan proposes the following (and here's the link to follow along):

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104156849&highlight=zadorov#post104156849



Subtract #10 and #21 and this is pretty much the exact trade that went down, right? How did Avalanche fans respond to this proposal?









What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

Reading is hard.

 

[CodeE]

Do you know how to read? Those Avs fans were balking at trading O'Reilly and the #10 overall pick.

And good job finding one out of many O'Reilly megathreads that had a few posts to back up your line of thinking, but let me tell you something--as a Moderator on the Avs board, I had to deal with a multitude of Sabres fans coming over to our board and telling us that we were "delusional if we thought GM Tim Murray was going to trade future #1 D Nikita Zadorov for pending UFA Ryan O'Reilly". A multitude.

And those same posters would come in to the Trade Forum's thread on Ryan O'Reilly and say the same crap.

Now, I recognize that there are more than a few Avs homers here who are not doing themselves any favors...but that also describes yourself as well.

So guess what, since the Avs have to deal with a former Franchise icon being an idiot at the GM position, that's our problem. If Garth Snow doesn't want to pay the price for Matt Duchene, and if you as an Isles fan don't want him to, that's fine...but you're investing way too much time and energy into these threads when you could just ignore them if you feel that those select Avs fans and Joe Sakic are being unreasonable.

Of course, that would mean that you'd have to drop your obsession with Matt Duchene, so we'll see if that happens.

I figured, I provide hard evidence that you guys are rewriting history and get a "why do you care so much about this you're putting way too much energy into your obsession with Duchene" response back. Figures.

I dealt with Oilers fans saying we'd have to trade Hamonic+1st for Eberle. Yes, there are unreasonable fans who venture over to the Avalanche forum to offer unwelcome opinions, and I scold the Islanders fans who've done this during this ordeal. The point is that you guys have been claiming the ROR trade was similar to the Hamonic/Eberle one - where a gross majority of the Buffalo fanbase said there was no way Zadorov would be included in any ROR return. The reality is that some Sabres fans may have said that, but plenty others were proposing Zadorov++ deals that Avs fans were rejecting.

You guys have absolutely no leverage to use the "they said we wouldn't get Zadorov and we did!" narrative when there's hard evidence of multiple Sabres fans making Zadorov++ offers and Avs fans rejecting them.

 

[falconski]

Avalanche fans have been insistent that Sabres fans laughed off any offer that included Zadorov, yet they got him. Hard evidence has now proven that to be a gross exaggeration - Sabres were willing to deal him (not all Sabres fans mind you, but this is hfboards) and Avalanche fans were saying "no thanks" to Zadorov++ proposals.

But if moving the goalposts helps, dig your cleats into the grass and keep pushing.

And you'd be more than happy to include barzal and a couple late picks for a package of duchene and makar, but keep comparing apples and lugnuts

 

[Dipietro39]

So over Duchene to NYI and I hope Snow is too.

Isles are poised to have a great season with or without Duchene.

Lee - JT - Eberle
Ladd - Barzal/Bailey/Nelson - JHS
Chimera - " " - Beau
CC - CC - Kuli

Boychuk - Leddy
CDH - Seidenberg
Pulock - Pelech/Hickey

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Avalanche fans have been insistent that Sabres fans laughed off any offer that included Zadorov, yet they got him. Hard evidence has now proven that to be a gross exaggeration - Sabres were willing to deal him (not all Sabres fans mind you, but this is hfboards) and Avalanche fans were saying "no thanks" to Zadorov++ proposals.

But if moving the goalposts helps, dig your cleats into the grass and keep pushing.

There are always outliers in any statistical group. For some illogical reason, you're trying to use them to disprove a claim that is supported by the vast majority of the available evidence. You might as well bring a snowball into Congress to disprove climate change.

 

[Konk]

I would take pretty much anything said about a duchene deal with a grain of salt. Sakic doesnt leak anything and he also doesnt confirm or deny pretty much anything unless it already happened. Pretty much gives free reign to other teams to leak stuff to the media regardless if its true or not. Im honest in that i have no clue how this will end. Id guess that if he lands with isles, most people will consider it an overpayment. Im not saying they should overpay just think its more likely since sakic is looking for specific pieces and isles dont have those pieces. Theres a good chance sakic would take less in a deal from preds, jackets or canes because they have specific pieces. Not saying if i like them or not but players like murray, fleury or fabbro fit avs better than barzal or beau. Avs are pretty well situated with centers. If we move duchene, we still have mack, jost and compher

I wasn't referring to rumored deals, as I consider all of that pure BS. I was referencing the actual asks from previous Avs fans on these boards. Joem is an example.

As far as where he will land, I do not believe it will be the Islanders. Doesn't look like Sakic is going to back down and Snow is not going to back down, that's for sure. He's always held on to top young talent until they've shown they aren't living up to expectation, i.e. Reinhart and Strome. Niederreiter is the only exception to this, but that was due to his attitude issues at the time and his agent.

Now that Hamonic has been moved, Pulock certainly isn't going anywhere and neither is de Haan. Barzal, Ho-Sang, and the goalie prospects aren't going anywhere either. I see Beauvillier, Pelech, Toews, Dal Colle, Wotherspoon, and the 1sts being potentially available. Those pieces aren't dissimilar from the Ryan and Yandle returns, which fetched guys like Duclair, John Moore, Silfverberg, Noesen, and picks.

 

[Ivan13]

I figured, I provide hard evidence that you guys are rewriting history and get a "why do you care so much about this you're putting way too much energy into your obsession with Duchene" response back. Figures.

I dealt with Oilers fans saying we'd have to trade Hamonic+1st for Eberle. Yes, there are unreasonable fans who venture over to the Avalanche forum to offer unwelcome opinions, and I scold the Islanders fans who've done this during this ordeal. The point is that you guys have been claiming the ROR trade was similar to the Hamonic/Eberle one - where a gross majority of the Buffalo fanbase said there was no way Zadorov would be included in any ROR return. The reality is that some Sabres fans may have said that, but plenty others were proposing Zadorov++ deals that Avs fans were rejecting.

You guys have absolutely no leverage to use the "they said we wouldn't get Zadorov and we did!" narrative when there's hard evidence of multiple Sabres fans making Zadorov++ offers and Avs fans rejecting them.

Multiple offers for ROR and and #10, is this really so hard to comprehend? Dear God almighty this is something else.

 

[RockLobster]

You guys have absolutely no leverage to use the "they said we wouldn't get Zadorov and we did!" narrative when there's hard evidence of multiple Sabres fans making Zadorov++ offers and Avs fans rejecting them.

Again. You apparently can't read. Those Avs fans you're citing were balking at giving up ROR AND #10 overall (maybe the combination of capitalization + bold + underline + bigger font will help you see it?)

But hey man, you're the one with the obsession in this matter, so keep on keeping on. I know being shown that what you're saying isn't exactly true won't matter, I can come back into this thread in another few days and see you pushing the same false narrative.

 

[CodeE]

Hard evidence has not in fact proven that. You have a small selection of posts from one of many threads. What it is evidence of is that Sabres fans were not in lockstep w/r/t the whole "NEVAR ZADOROV" thing, which is hardly shocking; fanbases do not exactly represent united fronts at all times.

I for one don't doubt that there were a bunch of Sabres fans being obnoxious jerks about the Zadorov thing. We used to get the same thing all the time with a subset of Oil fans who hated our responding to their Johansen proposals with "The price for Ryan Johansen is Jordan Eberle". It's usually a minority, but a very loud and obnoxious and persistent minority.

So while the Avs fans here leaning on "THEY SAID IT WOULD NEVAR HAPPEN LOL" are undoubtedly leaning on something that has more effect on their own sense of catharsis and vindication rather than objective market reality, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


EDIT: alternatively, "Girls! Girls! You're both ugly."

Agreed. I don't for a second believe that there were Sabres fans who said they wouldn't move Zadorov. It's similar to the Islanders agreeing to trade Beauvillier - some of us are saying fine, others are saying hell no. Not this 100% unified "NEVER ZADOROV" movement that left Sabres fans questioning how they managed to value their guy so highly.

The "we got what we wanted for ROR despite everyone else telling us we wouldn't, now we'll get what we want for Duchene as well" argument was stupid to begin with. Different trades get different results and you can't declare yourselves the winner of a trade that hasn't happened yet, especially when your rationale is "but the ROR trade!"

If that ROR return was exactly what Avs fans were looking for, they could have responded to that proposal with "take out #10 and #21 and it's close". Instead it was "no thanks", "no way", "we don't need Grigorenko", "absolutely no chance". Much like how they respond to any offer from the Isles that isn't a gross overpayment.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Agreed. I don't for a second believe that there were Sabres fans who said they wouldn't move Zadorov. It's similar to the Islanders agreeing to trade Beauvillier - some of us are saying fine, others are saying hell no. Not this 100% unified "NEVER ZADOROV" movement that left Sabres fans questioning how they managed to value their guy so highly.

The "we got what we wanted for ROR despite everyone else telling us we wouldn't, now we'll get what we want for Duchene as well" argument was stupid to begin with. Different trades get different results and you can't declare yourselves the winner of a trade that hasn't happened yet, especially when your rationale is "but the ROR trade!"

If that ROR return was exactly what Avs fans were looking for, they could have responded to that proposal with "take out #10 and #21 and it's close". Instead it was "no thanks", "no way", "we don't need Grigorenko", "absolutely no chance". Much like how they respond to any offer from the Isles that isn't a gross overpayment.

If we can't declare ourselves the winner of a trade that hasn't happened yet, doesn't that also mean that you can't declare that we lost a trade that hasn't happened yet?

But, instead of focusing on things like basic logic, let's nitpick about the fact that people didn't communicate in the most perfect manner. I'm sure that will convince people that you're right.

 

[Linds]

So over Duchene to NYI and I hope Snow is too.

Isles are poised to have a great season with or without Duchene.

Lee - JT - Eberle
Ladd - Barzal/Bailey/Nelson - JHS
Chimera - " " - Beau
CC - CC - Kuli

Boychuk - Leddy
CDH - Seidenberg
Pulock - Pelech/Hickey

That top 6 looks really old and slow

 

[Ivan13]

This just in, #10 pick in the draft is interchangeable with #21.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Agents, are a big part of what's wrong with pro sports today...

Amen

 

[Avs44]

You know, I actually found the "Ryan O'Reilly" megathread and did a little search for the name "Zadorov" to see what pops up. Funny to see Sabres fans post things like:



or



But here's my favorite, a Sabres fan proposes the following (and here's the link to follow along):

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104156849&highlight=zadorov#post104156849



Subtract #10 and #21 and this is pretty much the exact trade that went down, right? How did Avalanche fans respond to this proposal?


What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

That's really cute champ. Blithely including the 10th overall pick, which turned into Rantanen, completely changes the scope of everything, as those responses indicated. If you had actually bothered to be honest about this, you'd have seen some of those responses from Avs fans rejecting that proposal, on that same page, were also saying things like this:

no way

ROR for Zadorov, 21 and 51

As you should have been able to figure out, the issue was the inclusion of the 10th overall pick. Including a top 10 pick somewhat changes, things, who'd have guessed? Any deal that included 10th overall was no longer really Zadorov+ for ROR. What a absolutely pathetic spin job on your part.


Here's one of our trade threads from the Avs board at that time. Want to know what the title of that is, made by RL, the mod you're talking to? "Zadorov or we riot." Yeah, sure sounds like a guy and fanbase not OK with Zads+ for O'Reilly, huh? If you want to read a thread about what people actually thought of Zads+ for ROR, go here. That one's worth a look. Please go find the Sabres fans OK with Zads for ROR there. I'll find 10 Sabres fans and non-Sabres fans saying "lol no" for every Sabres fan you find saying yes.

 

[falconski]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1815619

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1863393
For what most threads looked like

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

You just took a bastardized deal where the Avs moved ROR and what became Rantanen for Zadorov, 1st, 2nd, Grigs and prospect. When that trade was more like ROR + McGinn for Zadorov, 1st, Grigs, Compher. But yes... Avs fans rejected that nonsense.

How about the below which were from earlier in the month leading up to the trade?

"Current" ROR will never get the value of a "signed to a long term contract" ROR.

There's really only three options here:

1. They keep ROR and re-sign him
2. They keep ROR and lose him for nothing.
3. They decide to cut their losses and deal him: at the deadline, for a traditional deadline price or earlier for a slightly higher price, but still as a rental. ie. you're looking at a 1st round pick as the main piece, with other picks and/or prospects (of varying quality) included. Not Zadorov or Lazar. Not an established top 4 LHD.

If the Avs prefer to roll the dice on options 1/2 that's fine. I actually hope he stays with you. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that if they do decide to trade him, that it will be on the favorable terms you're hoping for. It really never is.

NO. There is no one who will be available at 10 that I would want over Girgensons. And we aren't trading Zadorov let alone add 21 for a RoR with one year left on his deal.

If the Avs sign ROR there probably not going to trade him. But if they trade him without one, I say there's no way Buffalo trades Zadorov for him. I can just imagine in 2 years Avs fans laughing with there stud top pairing/top 4 D man while ROR plays for the Rangers or something.

Two years later... Sabres fans appear to be the ones laughing.

IIRC it was more like 30 something percent in favor of dealing Zads in a ROR deal and 60 something percent against.

That also includes several Av fans voting in favor..

So around 2/3 of the Sabres fan base voted against moving Zads for ROR?

No Zadorov. Supposedly coach bylsma really likes him and that's also too much to give up for ROR who is a UFA after one year. The possibility of zadorov reaching anything close to his ceiling is too intriguing. Plus we're already very thin on LHD.

 

[Konk]

Agreed. I don't for a second believe that there were Sabres fans who said they wouldn't move Zadorov. It's similar to the Islanders agreeing to trade Beauvillier - some of us are saying fine, others are saying hell no. Not this 100% unified "NEVER ZADOROV" movement that left Sabres fans questioning how they managed to value their guy so highly.

There's also a mix of Avs fans who are saying Beau + the two 2018 1sts, and Islander fans are rejecting that idea. If it's Beau, fine, but not both 1sts as well -- there's no precedent for that level of return for any previous trade in the modern era. But if it goes down as Beau, a single 1st, and some other pieces... some Avs fans will claim those rejections of Beau + the two 1sts as a rejection of the inclusion of Beau altogether. There's a cloudy perception that just because one outrageous proposal with that particular player involved is turned down, doesn't signify that there's rejection of any inclusion of said player in any capacity. Simply those specific proposals.

 

[CodeE]

There are always outliers in any statistical group. For some illogical reason, you're trying to use them to disprove a claim that is supported by the vast majority of the available evidence. You might as well bring a snowball into Congress to disprove climate change.

Any way to see this "vast majority of available evidence"?

Or should we just take your word for it, like we took your word that not a single Sabres fan was willing to give up Zadorov for ROR?

Multiple offers for ROR and and #10, is this really so hard to comprehend? Dear God almighty this is something else.

Again. You apparently can't read. Those Avs fans you're citing were balking at giving up ROR AND #10 overall (maybe the combination of capitalization + bold + underline + bigger font will help you see it?)

But hey man, you're the one with the obsession in this matter, so keep on keeping on. I know being shown that what you're saying isn't exactly true won't matter, I can come back into this thread in another few days and see you pushing the same false narrative.

Again, moving the goalposts.

What was once "Sabres fans said they'd never give up Zadorov but we got him PLUS other assets"

Has now been pushed back into "We didn't want to give up ROR + #10 to get back Zadorov, #21, #31, Grigorenko, and Baptiste/Bailey/Fasching because #10 for #21 and Baptiste/Bailey/Fasching wasn't good value for us!"

But again, keep calling me "obsessed" with "pushing my false narrative" and insulting my character some more to distract from the complete change in argument. What was once about Sabres fans rejecting all offers for Zadorov has now become how the Avalanche didn't want to drop 11 spots in the draft and also get back one of Baptiste/Bailey/Fasching in the deal.

 

[exHornet]

I guess the question worth asking is, who gives a **** what Duchene's agent thinks, anyhow?