Confirmed with Link: Duchene to OTT in three-team trade

[Ice-Tray]

We didn't overpay for Duchene. We gave up a good player and two unproven 1st round picks for our best forward and a real #1 centre at 26 years old. That is what it costs to get such a player, it's not an overpayment, it's a large payment in order to get the best player in the deal by far with the balance of his NHL career in front of him.

I know it doesn't fit the Dorion is a trade moron, but we did not overpay for Duchene, it was an awesome hockey trade, and the best one we have made since trading Yashin. My opinion of course

Providing we can extend him of course.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Well that's just lovely.

Even if we manage to keep Duchene, I shudder at the money he will get, given his comparables and our desperation to keep him after trading a ton for him.

I imagine he'd get around 8M on a long-term deal. Overpayment for a guy who's averaged around 50-60P the past 4 seasons.

Absolutely. And that's if he stays. Given the couching with "this COULD be a good place" and "IF everything works out," I have my doubts. If we lose EK, we lose Duchene. I think keeping EK could help keep that salary down somewhat, but not within market value. For better or worse, Duchene's name and perceived skill probably have more value than his actual skill (which is good, to be fair. But it's not worth 7.5-8M IMO.)

 

[Senscore]

At this point I'd rather just bite the bullet and attach picks and prospects to get Ryan out of here.

He's not a useless player, but his contract is horrible. That's workable.

Not a lot of teams can accommodate that of course but I think a few that can might be willing.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Absolutely. And that's if he stays. Given the couching with "this COULD be a good place" and "IF everything works out," I have my doubts. If we lose EK, we lose Duchene. I think keeping EK could help keep that salary down somewhat, but not within market value. For better or worse, Duchene's name and perceived skill probably have more value than his actual skill (which is good, to be fair. But it's not worth 7.5-8M IMO.)

I'm worried about him wanting to leave for a playoff team. Dude has played a grand total of 8 playoff games in 9 NHL seasons.

Have to wonder if he'd be willing to re-sign with a rebuilding/re-tooling team and continue to miss the playoffs.

 

[Tuna99]

At this point I'd rather just bite the bullet and attach picks and prospects to get Ryan out of here.

He's not a useless player, but his contract is horrible. That's workable.

Not a lot of teams can accommodate that of course but I think a few that can might be willing.

IMO because Ryan makes $7 million people look for positives in his game. If his name was Pavel Knetunimov and he was making $4 million and floating and producing like Ryan has the last few years we’d all want him out of town.

Ryan’s saving grace is he’s American, overpaid and willing to talk to the media about anything.

If he was a private Russian player tolerance for his game would be zero

 

[Ice-Tray]

IMO because Ryan makes $7 million people look for positives in his game. If his name was Pavel Knetunimov and he was making $4 million and floating and producing like Ryan has the last few years we’d all want him out of town.

Ryan’s saving grace is he’s American, overpaid and willing to talk to the media about anything.

If he was a private Russian player tolerance for his game would be zero

I have to disagree with this post in its entirety.

I looks to be the exact opposite around here actually. Because he makes 7million people are expecting a 7million dollar player and criticize him accordingly.

Bobby Ryan doesn't get any breaks around here BECAUSE of what he makes, and the compliments he has gotten recently have been hard earned and grudgingly given.

His saving grace is that though overpaid and injury prone, when he is playing and healthy he is without question a good top six forward, and we are in need of those, preferable not overpaid but that ship has long since sailed.

This is not a player to try and play the Russian pity party card.

 

[Hale The Villain]

We didn't overpay for Duchene. We gave up a good player and two unproven 1st round picks for our best forward and a real #1 centre at 26 years old. That is what it costs to get such a player, it's not an overpayment, it's a large payment in order to get the best player in the deal by far with the balance of his NHL career in front of him.

I know it doesn't fit the Dorion is a trade moron, but we did not overpay for Duchene, it was an awesome hockey trade, and the best one we have made since trading Yashin. My opinion of course

Providing we can extend him of course.

Turris (Girard, Kamanev, 2nd), Bowers, Top 10 pick, 6-8M in cap space for Duchene.

We basically gave up 4 1st round picks worth of value + 6M in cap space for two years of Duchene and the chance to re-sign him long-term at 7-8M.

It's an overpayment no question. If we had finished top 10 in the league and the pick turned into a late 1st, it wouldn't be as bad, but giving up a top 10 pick this year or next, on top of all that youth, is an extremely high price to pay for any player, let alone a streaky player that has averaged 40-60P the past 4YRs.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Turris (Girard, Kamanev, 2nd), Bowers, Top 10 pick, 6-8M in cap space for Duchene.

We basically gave up 4 1st round picks worth of value + 6M in cap space for two years of Duchene and the chance to re-sign him long-term at 7-8M.

It's an overpayment no question. If we had finished top 10 in the league and the pick turned into a late 1st, it wouldn't be as bad, but giving up a top 10 pick this year or next, on top of all that youth, is an extremely high price to pay for any player, let alone a streaky player that has averaged 40-60P the past 4YRs.

Hey now, don't actively tilt things your way with the silly "top 10 pick" remark. We have no idea what it will end up being. You're making it seem worse than it might be.

And "40-60 pts" is misleading too. He has averaged 56 pts/season over the last 4 complete seasons. 54.8 if you include this incomplete one.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Turris (Girard, Kamanev, 2nd), Bowers, Top 10 pick, 6-8M in cap space for Duchene.

We basically gave up 4 1st round picks worth of value + 6M in cap space for two years of Duchene and the chance to re-sign him long-term at 7-8M.

It's an overpayment no question. If we had finished top 10 in the league and the pick turned into a late 1st, it wouldn't be as bad, but giving up a top 10 pick this year or next, on top of all that youth, is an extremely high price to pay for any player, let alone a streaky player that has averaged 40-60P the past 4YRs.

okay why are you calling 6-7 million a "first round pick"

 

[Hale The Villain]

Hey now, don't actively tilt things your way with the silly "top 10 pick" remark. We have no idea what it will end up being. You're making it worse than it might be to further your agenda.

And "40-60 pts" is misleading too. He has averaged 56 pts/season over the last 4 complete seasons. 54.8 if you include this incomplete one.

Silly? We are 4th worst team in the league this year and we are about to trade our best player - who happens to be the best defenseman in the league. I'd put the chances of the Karlsson-less Sens finishing bottom 5 as higher than them finishing outside of the bottom 10.

We trade EK and this is going to be our D next season:

Trade? - UFA?
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Harpur
Wideman?

Defense is missing a top pair. Imagine that D playing in front of Andy/Condon.

We trade EK and we are going to suck next season. Pure and simple.

 

[Hale The Villain]

okay why are you calling 6-7 million a "first round pick"

I wasn't.

Girard = 1st
Kamenev+2nd = 1st
Bowers = 1st
1st = 1st

 

[Pancakes Pancakes]

I wasn't.

Girard = 1st
Kamenev+2nd = 1st
Bowers = 1st
1st = 1st

Sens didn't give that up though. We gave up Bowers, 1st and Turris, who by all accounts, wouldn't have re-signed here anyways. Why is this always overlooked? In this case, his value to the Sens was quite low and he was a great piece to use to get this deal done.

 

[Micklebot]

Sens didn't give that up though. We gave up Bowers, 1st and Turris, who by all accounts, wouldn't have re-signed here anyways. Why is this always overlooked? In this case, his value to the Sens was quite low and he was a great piece to use to get this deal done.

Ok, but if Turris wasn't going to re-sign here (debatable, he seemed to indicate he wanted to when he talked about how he felt management wanted him but ownership didn't) it still doesn't make him less valuable. We could have traded him to Nsh for that package, no?

 

[Tuna99]

I have to disagree with this post in its entirety.

I looks to be the exact opposite around here actually. Because he makes 7million people are expecting a 7million dollar player and criticize him accordingly.

Bobby Ryan doesn't get any breaks around here BECAUSE of what he makes, and the compliments he has gotten recently have been hard earned and grudgingly given.

His saving grace is that though overpaid and injury prone, when he is playing and healthy he is without question a good top six forward, and we are in need of those, preferable not overpaid but that ship has long since sailed.

This is not a player to try and play the Russian pity party card.

I've seen agmes where Ryan gets out-muscled on every single board play and looses every single puck battle he gets into, he doesn't skate hard, and then makes one of his ill conceived man alone rushes and gets the puck taken away from him and turnover the other way and the boards are like "Ryan's rush was pure talent, he's having a great game"

 

[Hale The Villain]

Sens didn't give that up though. We gave up Bowers, 1st and Turris, who by all accounts, wouldn't have re-signed here anyways. Why is this always overlooked? In this case, his value to the Sens was quite low and he was a great piece to use to get this deal done.

If Turris wasn't going to re-sign here, we could have traded him for Girard+Kamenev+2nd, just like Colorado did after we traded Turris, Bowers, 1st, 3rd for Duchene.

In terms of value:

Turris = Girard+Kamenev+2nd = about two 1sts

 

[Micklebot]

Turris (Girard, Kamanev, 2nd), Bowers, Top 10 pick, 6-8M in cap space for Duchene.

We basically gave up 4 1st round picks worth of value + 6M in cap space for two years of Duchene and the chance to re-sign him long-term at 7-8M.

It's an overpayment no question. If we had finished top 10 in the league and the pick turned into a late 1st, it wouldn't be as bad, but giving up a top 10 pick this year or next, on top of all that youth, is an extremely high price to pay for any player, let alone a streaky player that has averaged 40-60P the past 4YRs.

Why do you identify a completely unknown first round pick as a top 10 pick, but a known late pick (Bowers at 28th) as a generic 1st round pick? Is Kamenev and likely late 2nd really worth a 1st? I don't know enough about him tbh, so I'll assume yes.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Why do you identify a completely unknown first round pick as a top 10 pick, but a known late pick (Bowers at 28th) as a generic 1st round pick? Is Kamenev and likely late 2nd really worth a 1st? I don't know enough about him tbh, so I'll assume yes.

I'd value Bowers as a late-1st, where he was drafted. Would have drafted him 2nd round last year, but after his excellent freshman season he's justified his draft position. I'd probably value Kamenev+2nd as a mid-late 1st.

But Girard obviously is more valuable than a generic/mid 1st, and the Sens pick isn't unknown. We are a bottom 10 team this year and all indications are that we are going to trade Karlsson in the summer. Hard to see the team finishing outside of the bottom 10 next season. So likely top 10 pick > generic/mid 1st.

 

[aragorn]

Silly? We are 4th worst team in the league this year and we are about to trade our best player - who happens to be the best defenseman in the league. I'd put the chances of the Karlsson-less Sens finishing bottom 5 as higher than them finishing outside of the bottom 10.

We trade EK and this is going to be our D next season:

Trade? - UFA?
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Harpur
Wideman?

Defense is missing a top pair. Imagine that D playing in front of Andy/Condon.

We trade EK and we are going to suck next season. Pure and simple.

All of those guys have been playing in front of Anderson & Condon all yr anyway, I don't see losing Karlsson as making it worse defensively especially since he has been terrible most of the season defensively anyway. And the goalies have been terrible with Karlsson on the ice anyway as well this season, not sure it would make a difference. Where Ottawa would miss Karlsson would be offensively as a consistent pt producer for this team IMO. I'm also not sure whether they would re-sign Wideman but they might given his yr this yr to try & increase his value for next season & maybe trade him at the deadline for something.

If Ottawa does indeed trade Karlsson then I would hope they would replace him with a veteran right shot like Mike Green RD who is also weak defensively but can put up some pts offensively.

This would be my defence going into next yr:

Chabot - Karlsson or Green
Harpur - Ceci
Boroweicki - Wideman/Claesson

Not great but no worse than what they had this yr with Harpur & Chabot having a yr under their belts & I imagine both could be better next season. I imagine one of Wideman or Claesson gets moved at next yr's deadline or both to make room for Jaros.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Hey now, don't actively tilt things your way with the silly "top 10 pick" remark. We have no idea what it will end up being. You're making it seem worse than it might be.

Its not misleading though. At present, that pick is a top 10 pick. That can change given how the team does down the stretch or how they do next year, but its not wrong at all to call it a top 10 pick. We all know that pick has a way higher chance of being top 10 than not at this point.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I wasn't.

Girard = 1st
Kamenev+2nd = 1st
Bowers = 1st
1st = 1st

Oh. Well I don’t know. We didn’t trade that though. I don’t love the trade but you’re drilling pretty deep here.

 

[DrEasy]

Turris (Girard, Kamanev, 2nd), Bowers, Top 10 pick, 6-8M in cap space for Duchene.

We basically gave up 4 1st round picks worth of value + 6M in cap space for two years of Duchene and the chance to re-sign him long-term at 7-8M.

It's an overpayment no question. If we had finished top 10 in the league and the pick turned into a late 1st, it wouldn't be as bad, but giving up a top 10 pick this year or next, on top of all that youth, is an extremely high price to pay for any player, let alone a streaky player that has averaged 40-60P the past 4YRs.

It's 1 year of Turris + Bowers + 1st round pick for 2 years of Duchene.

Let's also say Hammond and the 3rd round pick cancel out (even though this annoys me).

If we conservatively estimate Turris and Duchene to be similar in value, then one year of Turris and Duchene cancel out, and we basically traded Bowers + 1st round pick for one full year of Duchene. I think it's actually pretty fair, FOR A TEAM IN CONTENTION. Of course if we're not going to compete during the time we have Duchene then we will have wasted a lot of assets.

What makes the deal a good one for Nashville is the fact that they signed Turris to an extension. If we can do the same with Duchene for a reasonable contract, then this remains a fair deal. If Duchene leaves as a free agent, having only played during non contention years, then it's a complete waste of a trade.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Silly? We are 4th worst team in the league this year and we are about to trade our best player - who happens to be the best defenseman in the league. I'd put the chances of the Karlsson-less Sens finishing bottom 5 as higher than them finishing outside of the bottom 10.

We trade EK and this is going to be our D next season:

Trade? - UFA?
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Harpur
Wideman?

Defense is missing a top pair. Imagine that D playing in front of Andy/Condon.

We trade EK and we are going to suck next season. Pure and simple.

Oh I agree. But it hasn't happened yet. You are speaking like it has. I'm well aware that it's a big possibility, but until it does happen, and we finish bottom 10 next year, you can't exactly proclaim an overpayment to the extent that you have.

You feel me?

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Its not misleading though. At present, that pick is a top 10 pick. That can change given how the team does down the stretch or how they do next year, but its not wrong at all to call it a top 10 pick. We all know that pick has a way higher chance of being top 10 than not at this point.

I imagine he meant next year's pick, i.e. we'd keep our bottom 7 or 8 or whatever pick we end up with this year.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yeah, I think folks are working really hard here.

We didn't make a convoluted trade, we traded:

Turris (who we didn't want to pay big money to long term)
lottery protected 1st round pick
Last year's late first round pick (Bowers)

That's the trade, stop trying to mussy thing by making it seem like we traded what Nashville traded for Turris, because we didn't. We waited for Colorado to work out a trade to get rid of the part they didn't want for the trade, that's how it went down.

I guess if folks want to work hard to make the deal worse for us then there is no stopping them, but to me we traded a guy were not going to extend, a late first who is looking like he could make the NHL, and a first in 2019 that will depend on what we do this summer.

Duchene is the best offensive forward on the team, has been our best player this season, and once settled in with the team has played the last few months at a near point a game pace while not looking like he's abnormally hot. He played the game in the offensive zone like you want your best players to (attacks the net, wins board battles, attacks with speed), he's our most skilled forward, and we play our cards right he'll be here a long time.

If everything pans out for the worst this summer, then come back and feed it to us as fact, but for right now we killed that trade and have the opportunity to start the next season with a strong core. Call me naive, but I'm not going to assume EK is traded and Duchene's not extending until I see it happen. Until then I like what I see when I see the roster, and I'd do the trade over and over and over again, maybe throwing in another pick if needed...

Crazy me!

 

[Ice-Tray]

I've seen agmes where Ryan gets out-muscled on every single board play and looses every single puck battle he gets into, he doesn't skate hard, and then makes one of his ill conceived man alone rushes and gets the puck taken away from him and turnover the other way and the boards are like "Ryan's rush was pure talent, he's having a great game"

I must have missed all of those games....