Draft, Muckler says BOG favour 30 balls in a bin

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HockeyCritter

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Goodness, no need to shout quite so loudly . . . . <<smile>>

And sure, it might be one draft . . . . but it is a really, really bad precedence.
 

Epsilon

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Jaded-Fan said:
I use analogies to make my point. The point everyone seems to be reluctant to address by the way. Slight amounts of sarcasm at times too. Whining? Please.

You are starting to sound like eye: accusing people of inventing things and/or misrepresenting themselves just because you don't like what they are saying.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Epsilon said:
You are starting to sound like eye: accusing people of inventing things and/or misrepresenting themselves just because you don't like what they are saying.

No, I actually said that someone has to not be telling the truth. I have no clue who. But now that we have that out of the way I can use logic to determine where the truth most likely lies. Either Muckler is BS'ing or these guys, more likely that not. If that were actually a true rumor there would be some link to it by now wouldn't there? It makes no sense when there are leaks all over saying the opposite of this rumor.

I think that some fans so strongly want to believe that their team is going to get a 1 in 30 chance that they will latch onto anything. Wanting it to be so does not make it so though. In this case based on the mere whisper of what someone supposedly said. Show me a link and then we can talk.
 

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See, what is really pathetic about this debate is that if Sydney Crosby were not up for grabs we would not be hearing a damn word about this. The big markets would be completely unworried about the selection of players that are likely three to five years from playing in the NHL and longer from producing at the levels people project. Unfortunately you have the wunderkind up for grabs and the big markets would do anything to get a shot at him. I understand that if you do a search, that both John Muckler and John Ferguson Jr. have their mothers for sale on e-bay in efforts to raise the money to greae the appropriate palms. All for the chance to get a shot at Crosby, who wasn't even the best player at the WJC. Makes you wonder?
 

bleedgreen

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it means eveything when your team sucks and has a chance to land a top 10 talent. for my team (canes), if they could add another quality prospect to go with ladd, staal, and ward the future wouldnt look so bad. every year counts when your team is rebuilding.
 

Mess

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Jaded-Fan said:
Then why can no one provide me with a single link, credible or not, that says what Muckler supposedly said? Every link out there says the opposite. Hell, every little rumor has been leaked to hell and back since this started and found itself in papers and in writings of columnists. Why not this one if it is the gospel?

I freely admit that some of these rumors pan out some are total bullcrap. In the end they may go 30 balls no weighting, I will not know for sure until they start pulling balls out. But absent a link to this one, and the myriad of links of leaks that have said the oposite, and very definitively so, forgive me for feeling pretty comfortable about the chances of this not happening.

ps: I heard on the radio that they were dispersing the pick of prospects from Colorado, Toronto, Detroit and Philly to the bottom teams in the standings 2003-4 to make up for their outspending evryone the past couple of decades. Honest. On FAN BS100. Hold on while I create another name to confirm that they heard it too.

From the TSN Article..
So far, it appears some form of lottery system among the teams will decide the 2005 draft order.

''It is important to the league to determine the fairest way to allocate draft picks,'' said Daly. ''Is everyone going to love it? No, but in the end, I hope everybody says it is fair.''

''It has the potential to be a difficult issue. Our clubs all have individual interests in this, but for the most part, they have been good at keeping their eye on the bigger issue, which is the CBA.''

More talk on the draft may come at a league executive committee meeting next week and a board of governors' meeting on April 20.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120852&hubName=nhl

So no final decisions have been made yet, so all this is Speculation until BOG makes the final decision ..
 

Tawnos

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LaBomba said:
Should the NHL reward teams that draft poorly (ie. Rangers) and make horrible free agent signings? Rangers already were 'rewarded' for a miserable year in the 2004 draft. I can appreciate newer teams that are still building getting dibs, but I don't think incompetence should be rewarded :teach:

I swear to god, this is the stupidest arguement I have ever seen on these boards.

Glen Sather and James Dolan would rather make the playoffs all those years than have Sidney Crosby. Any GM and owner would rather make the playoffs than have a shot at Crosby.

It's not a reward for anything, the first overall pick. It's compensation for poor on-ice performance. It doesn't matter what your draft record is or you management record is. This is compensation, not reward. There's a huge difference.
 

Steve L*

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Put 30 balls in a bin and do the draw live on national TV, this will help focus interest on the new season.

Every round of the FA Cup is decided that way as well as numerous national lotteries. Noone is going to question (well except whiny small market fans) if the lottery is fixed if he goes to Phi, Col or Det.
 

Jaded-Fan

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The Messenger said:
From the TSN Article..
So far, it appears some form of lottery system among the teams will decide the 2005 draft order.

''It is important to the league to determine the fairest way to allocate draft picks,'' said Daly. ''Is everyone going to love it? No, but in the end, I hope everybody says it is fair.''

''It has the potential to be a difficult issue. Our clubs all have individual interests in this, but for the most part, they have been good at keeping their eye on the bigger issue, which is the CBA.''

More talk on the draft may come at a league executive committee meeting next week and a board of governors' meeting on April 20.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120852&hubName=nhl

So no final decisions have been made yet, so all this is Speculation until BOG makes the final decision ..


That is your link to offset the myriad of articles that reported that there would be a weighted draft based on 3 to 4 years? If it were any thread but this one where a lot of fans got their hopes up, this thread would have been closed by a Mod long ago absent a linked article backing this up and you all know it.


ps:

I remember that article that you quoted, it was posted on April 8th, BEFORE the host of articles came out leaking details of the meeting saying that Bettman took control of the meeting and decreed that there would be a weighted lottery, using several years standings, and that all teams would have 'some' chance, though the teams near the top would have much stronger chances than teams like Detroit.
 
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wazee

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HockeyCritter said:

**There's nothing that says a draft has to be held this summer - - wait until February and base the draft order on standings after 41-games.
So instead of rewarding last year's bottom teams twice, we would reward next year's bottom teams twice?? :dunno:
 

HockeyCritter

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wazee said:
So instead of rewarding last year's bottom teams twice, we would reward next year's bottom teams twice??
How is it any different than teams that finish bottom three or five two or three seasons in a row? It is more likely than not that the teams that finished bottom five to ten will stay bottom five to ten then it is for a top five team to fall all the way to the bottom.

Okay take the 03/04 numbers and divide by two . . . add the 41-game point total and there's your June 2005 draft.

Take the 05/06 full season and there's your June 2006 draft.
 

wazee

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HockeyCritter said:
How is it any different than teams that finish bottom three or five two or three seasons in a row?
It is not any different. That is the point. Either way, a team at the bottom is going to get rewarded by a high draft pick twice.
 

chriss_co

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The draft is held to help teams who sucked the year before... anyone here who thinks ottawa, toronto, philly, detroit, colorado etc deserve to get crosby because they think they would suck if this season had not been cancelled is spewing cow manure left right and center

however, anyone who thinks washington, pittsburgh, columbus, carolina etc would have sucked this year is on target... sure there would have been changes to the order etc and some teams might have fallen but overall draft order does not change dramatically year to year

so the answer? a weighted lottery where everyone gets a shot but the best chances for each pick is heavily favored for the bottom teams of 2003-2004 with their chances increasing with every pick they are not selected... ie.. therefore, if columbus' chance of getting #1 overall is 20% but carolina is selected, then for pick #2 columbus has a 25% chance

etc
 

Jaded-Fan

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chriss_co said:
The draft is held to help teams who sucked the year before... anyone here who thinks ottawa, toronto, philly, detroit, colorado etc deserve to get crosby because they think they would suck if this season had not been cancelled is spewing cow manure left right and center

however, anyone who thinks washington, pittsburgh, columbus, carolina etc would have sucked this year is on target... sure there would have been changes to the order etc and some teams might have fallen but overall draft order does not change dramatically year to year

so the answer? a weighted lottery where everyone gets a shot but the best chances for each pick is heavily favored for the bottom teams of 2003-2004 with their chances increasing with every pick they are not selected... ie.. therefore, if columbus' chance of getting #1 overall is 20% but carolina is selected, then for pick #2 columbus has a 25% chance

etc

.......... ummm, you mean almost exactly like what was reported to be Bettman's decree, here?

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120872&hubName=nhl
 

HF2002

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Jaded-Fan said:
Hold on while I create another name to confirm that they heard it too.
I wondered how long it would take before you said this. I applaud your restraint for lasting this long. Keep up the good work.

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Jaded-Fan

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HF2002 said:
I wondered how long it would take before you said this. I applaud your restraint for lasting this long. Keep up the good work.

* one Account per User: multiple accounts are not permitted. If you have a good reason for needing more than one account, contact an administrator and ask for permission.

*circumvention by using multiple accounts will result in an immediate permanant ban. Banned users registering a new account for ANY reason, including PM, will be viewed as circumventing.


I was actually not being serious but being a bit sarcastic with that. Now, can you humor me and address why there has not been a single link to this rumor in the few days since you first said it? And no, I really am not accusing you of lying here, you may have heard something, maybe even exactly as you reported, but it makes no sense that it would not make the print anywhere if even a mere rumor truly floating out there, does it?
 

HF2002

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Jaded-Fan said:
I was actually not being serious but being a bit sarcastic with that. Now, can you humor me and address why there has not been a single link to this rumor in the few days since you first said it? And no, I really am not accusing you of lying here, you may have heard something, maybe even exactly as you reported, but it makes no sense that it would not make the print anywhere if even a mere rumor truly floating out there, does it?
Because the Team 1200 in Ottawa doesn't archive their broadcasts. If they did, I would have put the link there the minute you decided that *ahem* someone was lying.

Team 1200

For the record, I said it less than 24 hours ago. That's not a few days.

As I've said, I think it should be a weighted system and not a random draw. IMO, the only argument that makes sense for the 1 in 30 chance is that the teams already got their 'reward' for finishing where they did. Having said that, it's not enough of a reason.
 
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Yammer

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This draft should be cancelled entirely.

A draft is closely linked to the season immediately preceeding it. Draft order is based on regular season standings, plus or minus a few spots based on the lottery.

If the season is cancelled, then the draft should be too.

Next year will be an extremely deep draft, but what's wrong with that?
 

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bleedgreen said:
odc
it means eveything when your team sucks and has a chance to land a top 10 talent. for my team (canes), if they could add another quality prospect to go with ladd, staal, and ward the future wouldnt look so bad. every year counts when your team is rebuilding.

You don't think the *CANUCKS* (poster boy for HORRIFIC drafts) don't know about bad drafting ?

Tough beans, the draft is a complete crapshoot. You get lucky or you don't. Carolina has had its share top-3 picks and they got busts. That's how the cookie crumbles.

There was NO 04-05 season. So all teams get a 1/30 chance at draft position. That is it, end of story.
 

Jaded-Fan

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HF2002 said:
Because the Team 1200 in Ottawa doesn't archive their broadcasts. If they did, I would have put the link there the minute you decided that *ahem* someone was lying.

Team 1200

For the record, I said it less than 24 hours ago. That's not a few days.


That wasn't what I said. What I said was that if this were a strong credible leak, it would have made its way somewhere where I could read about it by now. If it were the only info out there I might listen though still with a grain of salt. However, since there is a well vetted polar opposite leak out there that has linked stories, several of them, I understandably take this competing rumor with a boatload of a grain of salt until I see something. Is that not understandable?
 

Mess

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Jaded-Fan said:
That is your link to offset the myriad of articles that reported that there would be a weighted draft based on 3 to 4 years? If it were any thread but this one where a lot of fans got their hopes up, this thread would have been closed by a Mod long ago absent a linked article backing this up and you all know it.


ps:

I remember that article that you quoted, it was posted on April 8th, BEFORE the host of articles came out leaking details of the meeting saying that Bettman took control of the meeting and decreed that there would be a weighted lottery, using several years standings, and that all teams would have 'some' chance, though the teams near the top would have much stronger chances than teams like Detroit.
The point I am making is that NO DECISION IS MADE YET ..

Also what you forget to consider is that those article you speak of with links are so called leaks and hearsay .. Bob MacKenzie was not in the room ...

Muckler being a GM as this thread suggests was a part of the discussions as to what really transpired in that GM meeting ...

Someone first hand knowledge certainly should hold more credibility then leaked info .. as you remember the Sportsnet article that said a Deal was done and season saved, and you could find 1000 web links to "Deal in principle and it turn out to be all together false.

The BOG have the final say on what will happen and until then nothing is decided as far as I'm concerned is 50/ 50 and could go either way, and the only thing that we do know is it will be lottery in format and all teams involved and snake from round to round .. Those things are consistent throughout ..

Bettman shutting it down could be taken many ways .. You called a meeting to cover a lot of issues ... If he would have let the GM's continue on it could have taken up the full meeting .. Apparently after the main meeting ended did the draft discussion begin again .. Also these are the GM's they do not get the final say .. So they can't decide anything anyways one way or the other .. The owners and the Board of Governors will determine the FINAL Decision based on what Bettman gets them to vote on and presents ..
 
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Jaded-Fan

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The Messenger said:

The point I am making is that NO DECISION IS MADE YET ..

Also what you forget to consider is that those article you speak of with links are so called leaks and hearsay .. Bob MacKenzie was not in the room ...

Muckler being a GM as this thread suggests was a part of the discussions as to what really transpired in that GM meeting ...

Someone first hand knowledge certainly should hold more credibility then leaked info .. as you remember the Sportsnet article that said a Deal was done and season saved, and you could find 1000 web links to "Deal in principle and it turn out to be all together false.

The BOG have the final say on what will happen and until then nothing is decided as far as I'm concerned is 50/ 50 and could go either way, and the only thing that we do know is it will be lottery in format and all teams involved and snake from round to round .. Those things are consistent throughout ..

Of course I take any of these with a grain of salt. Huge grains of salt. I am not reporting those linked articles as the Gospel, far from it. I am questioning how this competing rumor became as legit though without a single link to it. Show me where Muckler actually said this and I will raise this leak to the level of the prior one in my head. Both with a grain of salt, but both equally possible. Until then, why should I?
 

HF2002

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Jaded-Fan said:
That wasn't what I said. What I said was that if this were a strong credible leak, it would have made its way somewhere where I could read about it by now. If it were the only info out there I might listen though still with a grain of salt. However, since there is a well vetted polar opposite leak out there that has linked stories, several of them, I understandably take this competing rumor with a boatload of a grain of salt until I see something. Is that not understandable?
As would I. But does that mean that I can't point out what Muckler said? Not a chance.

The week the season was cancelled there were posters on here simply repeating something they heard on the radio in order to inform people in other parts of the world. That's all I've done.
 
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