Draft and UDFA Thread 2017-18

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ghost of jas

Unsatisfied
Feb 27, 2002
27,188
13,601
NJ
I was talking about Kovalchuk, but okay....

We're going to differ in opinions on Zucc. Can see that coming now. No, it is not emotional. Thinking logically. I think he is better suited for the Rangers next season because he is the only one that puts up consistent points on the team every year.

Leave the rest for the roster building thread....

Fair enough. I’ll end it on this point. Much like the case with McDonagh, it appears Gorton is not looking to keep Zuccarello long term. While having a winger to play with Kovalchuk in the manner you suggests make sense for contending team, I think Kovalchuk is being brought in more for the influence he’ll have with the young Russians, most notably Buchnevich, who I see likely to fill the role you’re describing for Zuccarello.

Besides, Zucc to Dallas, LA or Florida likely means another 1st rounder to discuss...or more ammunition to add another top ten pick.

:naughty:
 
  • Like
Reactions: N9Y4R

Trxjw

Retired.
May 8, 2007
28,334
11,204
Land of no calls..
Another guy to go into the "Rangers probably saw him quite a bit" ring: Milos Roman. I could see him sneaking into that late 1st grouping and playing on Giants with Ronning may have earned him a couple extra visits from our scouts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mac n Gs

eco's bones

Registered User
Jul 21, 2005
25,988
12,224
Elmira NY
Kovalchuk is a shooter and Zuccarello is a playmaker. I don't see why Kovalchuk being signed would necessarily mean Zuccarello gets traded and I'd be interested to see how they might work with each other. Going forward with Zucc--if he wants to stay with the Rangers bad enough--and I think he does he'll be willing to take a short term (2-3) year contract. Pay him what he's making now or give him a small raise---I think that's fair for his production. Those two together on the powerplay should be really good. Kovalchuk has a tremendous shot and Zuccarello is a great passer. They seem tailor made for each other to me.
 

broadwayblue

Registered User
Mar 4, 2004
20,019
1,804
NYC
I think a lot of us love Zucc. But he is at his peak or on his way down, while still on a value contract for another year. I wouldn't move him for a crappy return, but if I can get a mid to late 1st he's being dealt. It's all about asset management.
 

Edge

Kris King's Ghost
Mar 1, 2002
34,749
42,578
Amish Paradise
Firstly, I don't believe in rankings. Find most lists to be fodder for subscription likes, follow back and what have you. I think that teams have their lists that they value per their own scouting department. I, more so, value players via their own talent and make a range on where I think they should be picked. For example, I think Dahlin is a top 5 talent (even though he'll most likely go No. 1 on draft day). I also think Svechnikov is a top 5 talent (and I also think he could No. 1 on draft day). Zadina is also a top 5 talent, IMO, but on-the-other-hand, isn't on the same level as the aforementioned two players (which then I'd say he could be picked up No. 3-5, but no lower). I hope I made sense of that. I feel it makes more sense to fairly evaluate and assume where a player could end up come draft day.

Anyways, I also think there are higher talented guys available at No. 8, but seeing that Veleno already possesses great edge work and good offensive (and defensive) IQ, how couldn't he have high end offense in his post draft season? I could see him having better offensive numbers than, say, Tkachuk in their first NHL seasons.

What I guess I'm trying to ask is how can a guy pegged as "safe" have more to prove via the way they play? I think this question can be slated for Sean Day, as well, but Veleno and Day are obviously two different players. I just find it interesting that most say they're concerned about his scoring in the pros, when he does all the things right to, indeed, score or create scoring chances right now. If the player does have this high IQ, they would work on those things in the offseason so that it becomes more of a prominent component of their game, right?

I'll use Howden as an example. I think most can say that in his draft year, he showed underwhelming numbers. But, with his IQ, learned to evaluate the rights and wrongs and became a better prospect in the post draft seasons he accumulated.

I wouldn't think Veleno is that much of a concern than compared to others slotted in the 1st round, IMO. I could easily see somebody taking him in the top 10, especially with the lack of forwards projected to go in the top 10, to boot.

For me, the rankings are more to give some sense of order to things, but they aren’t the end all be all. For example, the difference between 4 and 10 could be fairly small, or a matter of preference. Meanwhile, the difference between 11 and 13 could be significant. I merely used it because people like to see where I have players in relation to one another.

With regards to Veleno, I think he’s an interesting case because of how many times we’ve had a chance to see him over the years. This isn’t a kid with a single junior season under his belt. In this case he has 216 some odd junior games under his belt and 191 points, in the Q no less. So we have a lot more mileage under the hood, in some cases two or even three times as many games as some of the other options. For me, thus far, a very clear picture has emerged. He’s a smart player, but not necessarily a dynamic offensive player.

The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, high scoring NHL centers who have produced at the same pace through 200 junior games. I can’t really think of any off the top of my head, and if we did manage to it together a list, the names would be few and far between.

That’s not meant as an insult toward Veleno, I’ve just seen enough kids over the last 25 years that I feel the odds of him suddenly turning into higher end scorer at the NHL level is pretty slim. If anything, I’ve seen far more examples of projections over-favoring kids who are good at multiple areas other than top end offense. People tend to like those players, they’re easy to root. There’s a lot to like in the overall game, so we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt on offense.

You cited Howden as an example, but I think there are some key differences to note. For example, people didn’t really debate Howden as a top 10 pick. Most observers had him slated for the 24-30 range.

Second, Howden has played roughly the equivalent of an entire season less before he was drafted. I’d also argue that his offense progress was more pronounced, though certainly not spectacular.

But Howden has also shown a knack for being a guy who lifts his linemates and teams in a variety of situations. So his rise is about more than what he’s shown in Moose Jaw.

So that begs the question, could Veleno get to that point? Maybe. Would I want to bank on that over some of the other guys in the top of the draft? No, not particularly. But that doesn’t mean I think he’s incapable of bringing some good production. I just think there are a dozen or so guys whose combination would be more appealing if they were sitting on the board along with Veleno.
 

Joey Bones

***** 2k16
Jul 27, 2012
10,663
4,409
Nowhere
Fair enough. I’ll end it on this point. Much like the case with McDonagh, it appears Gorton is not looking to keep Zuccarello long term. While having a winger to play with Kovalchuk in the manner you suggests make sense for contending team, I think Kovalchuk is being brought in more for the influence he’ll have with the young Russians, most notably Buchnevich, who I see likely to fill the role you’re describing for Zuccarello.

Besides, Zucc to Dallas, LA or Florida likely means another 1st rounder to discuss...or more ammunition to add another top ten pick.

:naughty:

All hypothetical until then. Both of our opinions.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,228
23,101
New York
Honestly, I can see it.

There are a lot of risers that may jump over him. A lot of teams in the 10 to 20 range may look to get a safer player like Hayton, Lundestrom, Veleno, Smith, or McLeod.

Wilde's ability is not being questioned. The likelihood of him putting it all together and being an NHL'er is lower than those aforementioned safer picks. His ceiling is higher, but his floor is much lower.

Is it? A lot of players in the first round will bust.

Lets say he busts, which I don't think he will, but he could. There will also be "safe" picks who bust, if you go by what usually happens with the draft.
 

Joey Bones

***** 2k16
Jul 27, 2012
10,663
4,409
Nowhere
For me, the rankings are more to give some sense of order to things, but they aren’t the end all be all. For example, the difference between 4 and 10 could be fairly small, or a matter of preference. Meanwhile, the difference between 11 and 13 could be significant. I merely used it because people like to see where I have players in relation to one another.

With regards to Veleno, I think he’s an interesting case because of how many times we’ve had a chance to see him over the years. This isn’t a kid with a single junior season under his belt. In this case he has 216 some odd junior games under his belt and 191 points, in the Q no less. So we have a lot more mileage under the hood, in some cases two or even three times as many games as some of the other options. For me, thus far, a very clear picture has emerged. He’s a smart player, but not necessarily a dynamic offensive player.

The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, high scoring NHL centers who have produced at the same pace through 200 junior games. I can’t really think of any off the top of my head, and if we did manage to it together a list, the names would be few and far between.

That’s not meant as an insult toward Veleno, I’ve just seen enough kids over the last 25 years that I feel the odds of him suddenly turning into higher end scorer at the NHL level is pretty slim. If anything, I’ve seen far more examples of projections over-favoring kids who are good at multiple areas other than top end offense. People tend to like those players, they’re easy to root. There’s a lot to like in the overall game, so we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt on offense.

You cited Howden as an example, but I think there are some key differences to note. For example, people didn’t really debate Howden as a top 10 pick. Most observers had him slated for the 24-30 range.

Second, Howden has played roughly the equivalent of an entire season less before he was drafted. I’d also argue that his offense progress was more pronounced, though certainly not spectacular.

But Howden has also shown a knack for being a guy who lifts his linemates and teams in a variety of situations. So his rise is about more than what he’s shown in Moose Jaw.

So that begs the question, could Veleno get to that point? Maybe. Would I want to bank on that over some of the other guys in the top of the draft? No, not particularly. But that doesn’t mean I think he’s incapable of bringing some good production. I just think there are a dozen or so guys whose combination would be more appealing if they were sitting on the board along with Veleno.

Good notes. I'm with with you in regards to other talent that NYR should get before him. But I think he, like Howden, are players that do carry their teams. Howden with Moose Jaw and Veleno with Drummondville. No matter how long he's been in the Q for, he's still freshly 18 years old. He's above PPG in that regard and has shown some grit to his game, which in playoff hockey most would think is essential. People might pass up on a potentially grittier version of Brassard with Veleno. I think he could put the scoring touch together. Time will tell of course. Good debate!
 

Joey Bones

***** 2k16
Jul 27, 2012
10,663
4,409
Nowhere
**** happens in the draft, man. You never know.


200.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miamipuck and Bozle

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Kravtsov is a guy who I would be the least bit shocked to work his way into the top 10, or even as high as fifth to be honest.

Yeah, anyone got a word on his contract situation? He isn't far from being able to play right away.
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Farabee can play in the AHL. The 20yo-rule only applies to Canadian major juniors

Austen Matthews move to Europe certainly didn't hurt him. Really gutsy move BTW. Anyway it doesn't seem to becoming a trend.

The AHL is an OK league, but its far from optimal to develop kids in. A few reasons are:
1. With all NHL teams looking to add more skill and speed, there is right now an overweight of good grinders and defensive players in the AHL.
2. Playing a fast skilled game requires a lot of training and chemistry. There is a heck of a turnover of players on the AHL roster. The AHL coaches just don't get enough time to build on the puck game.
3. Traditionally the AHL is a very very N-S hockey league. It takes time to change traditions. Many coaches are former AHLers, its not a vet heavy league but there is still a sizable core in place of vets used to playing that N-S style. To some extent, its in the walls.
4. The AHL is a very dangerous league compared to today's NHL. The NHL has become very streamlined and isn't at all as physical as it used to be. The AHL can't be compared to the good ol days, but its a heck of a lot more common that you see guys skating around in the AHL looking for scalps than its in the NHL right now. This increases the injury risk, but its maybe not a biggie. BUT, it also disrupts the play a lot and turns the game into more or a N-S style game. The don't get caught with your head down risk is much more real in the AHL than the NHL. The more real that risk is, the less creative a player can be.
5. The schedule and travel is tough in the AHL. Many teams have started to take that into account with kids sitting them one of three games.

From my POV the AHL should be a place were a player -- with a developed game in place -- adopt to the pro hockey and keep working on that game. The AHL is the best in the world for that. But it should -- not -- be a place were you put a kid to find his game, develop his game.

Even if someone like Farabee is very responsible and skilled and could help a team at any level in many areas -- I would definitely fear that his game to a too big extent would be about pressuring the puck and supporting his teammates in the AHL, and that he wouldn't get involved enough with the puck and with ice and time. You need to be patient with these kids. I would much rather see Farabee in a little slower league in Europe, like the SHL/SM-liigaa/Swiss league or any of them, playing more of a creative thoughtful puck game. Getting new influences. Not risking being punished for holding on to the puck to the same extent, and getting an opportunity to play with teammates playing that style too. Then after one year in Europe the AHL is probably perfect for him. But the AHL for a kid aged 18 without a really developed offensive game? Nah, not sold on that.
 

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
22,580
12,822
@Steve Kournianos made some great points last night on twitter re: Brady Tkachuk. I’ll post here in a few, but if you don’t follow him yet, you definitely should for prospect clips, analysis, etc.
 

GeorgeKaplan

Registered User
Dec 19, 2011
9,094
8,376
New Jersey
@Steve Kournianos made some great points last night on twitter re: Brady Tkachuk. I’ll post here in a few, but if you don’t follow him yet, you definitely should for prospect clips, analysis, etc.
I guess, I feel like some of the arguments he made for Tkachuk were lacking context and omitting things to make him look better, but that may be my feelings getting in the way
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joey Bones

FireGerardGallant

The Artist Formerly known as FireDavidQuinn
Mar 19, 2016
6,646
7,555


I know a lot is made about Merkley's attitude issues and how he's weak in other areas of his game but those numbers certainly are eye popping. He seems to be worth the risk at one of the later picks
 

Pizza

Registered User
Sep 17, 2005
11,175
563
Assume we don't win a Lottery Pick and we want to add another 1st round pick.

Who are some teams and scenarios where we could do that?

Thanks in advance.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,228
23,101
New York


I know a lot is made about Merkley's attitude issues and how he's weak in other areas of his game but those numbers certainly are eye popping. He seems to be worth the risk at one of the later picks


I don't even necessarily see this as a risk thing. I don't think he's a first round talent. He'll score a lot of points, but give away just as many defensively. And then he has attitude issues. Unless you are Shatty level with the points, not just an OFD who can put up points, you are a marginal NHL'er with that skill-set. Gonna need to be 40+ per season consistently. And the attitude issues make it worse for a player who already has major question marks whether he can be an impact NHL'er.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mac n Gs

FireGerardGallant

The Artist Formerly known as FireDavidQuinn
Mar 19, 2016
6,646
7,555
Assume we don't win a Lottery Pick and we want to add another 1st round pick.

Who are some teams and scenarios where we could do that?

Thanks in advance.
Dallas or Florida could use some depth scoring. Maybe Zuc to one of them for their first
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pizza

Edge

Kris King's Ghost
Mar 1, 2002
34,749
42,578
Amish Paradise


I know a lot is made about Merkley's attitude issues and how he's weak in other areas of his game but those numbers certainly are eye popping. He seems to be worth the risk at one of the later picks


Ironically, the people I've talked to rarely mention the attitude. They do express concerns about the defense. However, I think most teams will find he gets easier to justify towards the back of the first round.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mac n Gs

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
22,580
12,822
I don't even necessarily see this as a risk thing. I don't think he's a first round talent. He'll score a lot of points, but give away just as many defensively. And then he has attitude issues. Unless you are Shatty level with the points, not just an OFD who can put up points, you are a marginal NHL'er with that skill-set. Gonna need to be 40+ per season consistently. And the attitude issues make it worse for a player who already has major question marks whether he can be an impact NHL'er.
I’m still not convinced what he does in the OHL will translate to actual NHL offense. Half this shit he does doesn’t work against better players in rigid systems and he’s so f***ing bad defensively. Ryan Murphy 2.0
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pavel Buchnevich
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->