Doug Armstrong Question

Gurglesons

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Hello Blues fans,

I’ve always been a fan of St. Louis and think overall Armstrong has made some very good deals, but I have a question. Do Blues fans feel like the last two years have proven that he has no feel for his team?

He has made two gigantic trades at the deadline weakening a squad that seems like they could do damage in the playoffs. The d-core isn’t getting any younger and if he truly is trying to retool why has Allen stuck around and why would you trade assets for Schenn (who has had a great season, but still)

It seems to me that Armstrong has lost the feel for the team, and while he’s done some great work in St. Louis his time is up after the Shattenkirk and Statsny trades.
 
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AjaxManifesto

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You hit on something here: Armstrong at the deadline has been a seller rather than buyer for the last two seasons. As Blues fans we always expect to make the playoffs (no matter how flawed the team is), but upper management by their actions is telling us "we don't think this is the year".

It's a mystery. Armstrong always says he has a now plan, a next year plan, and a five year plan (I paraphrase here and may have the exact years wrong); anyhow, I'd love to hear what those plans are. Obviously the ownership thinks its a winner; hence, his big GM contract extension that was signed this season.
 

tfriede2

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Aug 8, 2010
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Hello Blues fans,

I’ve always been a fan of St. Louis and think overall Armstrong has made some very good deals, but I have a question. Do Blues fans feel like the last two years have proven that he has no feel for his team?

He has made two gigantic trades at the deadline weakening a squad that seems like they could do damage in the playoffs. The d-core isn’t getting any younger and if he truly is trying to retool why has Allen stuck around and why would you trade assets for Schenn (who has had a great season, but still)

It seems to me that Armstrong has lost the feel for the team, and while he’s done some
great work in St. Louis his time is up after the Shattenkirk and Statsny trades.

I don't think you'll find many fans here who think that is remotely true, and that's the exact reason why Armstrong made those deadline trades. His goal is to win a Stanley Cup, not just make the playoffs. However, you are correct in that we need to obtain more assets in order to make the Stanley Cup more realistic, as our core is in their prime and can't be wasted.
 

Dbrownss

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Jan 5, 2014
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Hello Blues fans,

I’ve always been a fan of St. Louis and think overall Armstrong has made some very good deals, but I have a question. Do Blues fans feel like the last two years have proven that he has no feel for his team?

He has made two gigantic trades at the deadline weakening a squad that seems like they could do damage in the playoffs. The d-core isn’t getting any younger and if he truly is trying to retool why has Allen stuck around and why would you trade assets for Schenn (who has had a great season, but still)

It seems to me that Armstrong has lost the feel for the team, and while he’s done some
great work in St. Louis his time is up after the Shattenkirk and Statsny trades.
Kevin Shattenkirk would have been a lost asset. He had zero intentions on staying with the Blues. Parayko was ready to take his minutes and was a superior defenseman. We lost a PP specialist, and it showed how poorly coached the PP is.

As for stastny, it was obvious Armstrong was looking to bring in Hoffman, except Dorian is a clown. So he was looking at what would have been a semi hockey trade depending on who he sent to Ottawa with the Winnipeg pick.

The overall vision hasn't changed since he announced the retool after the 15/16 season. He's looking to make this team faster and more skilled. He brought in Schenn, who turned into a 70pt center....how can anyone even question that move? If Armstrong reverted to bringing in big body 3rd liners I'd question his vision. Over the last couple years, the Blues have been tied to Hall, Drouin, and Hoffman. Couple that with the drafting.....the vision is clear, it's just taking longer then we want to make it happen
 

stl76

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Hello Blues fans,

I’ve always been a fan of St. Louis and think overall Armstrong has made some very good deals, but I have a question. Do Blues fans feel like the last two years have proven that he has no feel for his team?

He has made two gigantic trades at the deadline weakening a squad that seems like they could do damage in the playoffs. The d-core isn’t getting any younger and if he truly is trying to retool why has Allen stuck around and why would you trade assets for Schenn (who has had a great season, but still)

It seems to me that Armstrong has lost the feel for the team, and while he’s done some
great work in St. Louis his time is up after the Shattenkirk and Statsny trades.
The d-core is literally getting younger. Lol.

Trading Shattenkirk and (hopefully) Stastny was done to get ammo to improve the roster for next season. The Shattenkirk pick enabled us to get Schenn, and it’s pretty widely reported/believed that the pick we got for Stastny is going to be used in a trade for top 6 help. We also had an internal and frankly superior replacement for Shattenkirk in Parayko. If your logic for claiming that Armstrong “has no feel for his team” is based on selling at the past 2 deadlines, then I would argue the exact opposite is true.

Seems like you’re confusing a retool with a rebuild.

If you want to criticize Armstrong, then I’d suggest starting with some of his recent contract signings. Selling at the deadline may look bad from the outside, but ask anyone who follows the team closesly and 99% will say he made the right move selling this year and last.
 
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Gurglesons

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I’m a Penguins fan so I’ll put it this way. I have no issue with the Dumo, Maatta and Schultz contracts, but as a whole for the Penguins to be spending what they are on the D, the contracts seem like someone missing something about the team dynamic.

Armstrong’s decisions seem to run the same way. The Schenn, Statsny and Shattenkirk trades all make sense in a vacuum, but if you’re selling off assets while having a somewhat successful team, why aren’t you going full retool?

It seems like Armstrong is just shuffling chairs for continued mediocrity. He’s a great GM, but ultimately fresh eyes and a GM not attached to these players may help. Or maybe they’re the next Jets.

But, from what I’m gathering this is incorrect.
 
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stl76

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I’m a Penguins fan so I’ll put it this way. I have no issue with the Dumo, Maatta and Schultz contracts, but as a whole for the Penguins to be spending what they are on the D, the contracts seem like someone missing something about the team dynamic.

Armstrong’s decisions seem to run the same way. The Schenn, Statsny and Shattenkirk trades all make sense in a vacuum, but if you’re selling off assets while having a somewhat successful team, why aren’t you going full retool?

It seems like Armstrong is just shuffling chairs for continued mediocrity. He’s a great GM, but ultimately fresh eyes and a GM not attached to these players may help. Or maybe they’re the next Jets.

But, from what I’m gathering this is incorrect.
Again, I think you’re confusing “retool” with “rebuild.”
 

Dbrownss

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I’m a Penguins fan so I’ll put it this way. I have no issue with the Dumo, Maatta and Schultz contracts, but as a whole for the Penguins to be spending what they are on the D, the contracts seem like someone missing something about the team dynamic.

Armstrong’s decisions seem to run the same way. The Schenn, Statsny and Shattenkirk trades all make sense in a vacuum, but if you’re selling off assets while having a somewhat successful team, why aren’t you going full retool?

It seems like Armstrong is just shuffling chairs for continued mediocrity. He’s a great GM, but ultimately fresh eyes and a GM not attached to these players may help. Or maybe they’re the next Jets.

But, from what I’m gathering this is incorrect.
The only questionable trade was Stastny. The rest had a purpose. We won't know the ripples of the Stastny trade for some time
 

TerminatorBlue

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I’m a Penguins fan so I’ll put it this way. I have no issue with the Dumo, Maatta and Schultz contracts, but as a whole for the Penguins to be spending what they are on the D, the contracts seem like someone missing something about the team dynamic.

Armstrong’s decisions seem to run the same way. The Schenn, Statsny and Shattenkirk trades all make sense in a vacuum, but if you’re selling off assets while having a somewhat successful team, why aren’t you going full retool?

It seems like Armstrong is just shuffling chairs for continued mediocrity. He’s a great GM, but ultimately fresh eyes and a GM not attached to these players may help. Or maybe they’re the next Jets.

But, from what I’m gathering this is incorrect.

Haha shuffling chairs on the Titanic. We need to clean house, we could argue about some of his trades but at the end of the day we are a worse team now then in the last previous years. Doug Armstrong is the one who hired Yeo then fired Hitchcock after the team was under performing Now it is his turn to face the music.
 

Note Worthy

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I’m not, I just think the forward group is a complete mess and I see Schenn for Statsny as a complete lateral move.

But, like I said I think Armstrong is one of the better GMs in the league. Obviously, the fans still have faith in him. So, I’m likely reading the situation wrong.

Schenn for Stastny is not a lateral move. Schenn is younger and put up more points.
 
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Novacain

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I’m not, I just think the forward group is a complete mess and I see Schenn for Statsny as a complete lateral move.

But, like I said I think Armstrong is one of the better GMs in the league. Obviously, the fans still have faith in him. So,
I’m likely reading the situation wrong.

First of all, Schenn put up a 70 point season, leading the team in points. Stastny hasn't put up a season with more then 60 points since 09-10. Schenn was a solid 1st line Center, Stastny hasn't had a real claim at that in almost a decade. Also, Stastny is 6 years older then Schenn. That's not a lateral move.

As for the forward group being a mess? I mostly agree. The Sobotka signing has gone awfully, which has really screwed us up a it. Also, the Fabbri injury really screwed us over too.

But the Blues do have some great prospects coming that might address their main weaknesses (Center Depth, lack of Right Handed Shots) in Thomas and Kyrou.

I'm not as low on Armstrong as a lot. He has made some crew ups, but he's also made some great moves too.
 

Alklha

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Ummm... okay.

First thing is that it is probably best to get rid of the idea that the Blues were "sellers" at the last 2 deadlines.

With Shattenkirk we'd been working on trading him for almost 2 years at that point. It all became very public. We weren't going to be extending him, we had just lost Fabbri for the season and we had Parayko and Pietrangelo. We were already weaker than the prior season with the loss of Backes and Brouwer. It made sense to move Shattenkirk.

Trading Stastny was an attempt to get currency to make another trade to bring in a top-6 player. We clearly felt getting a first would push that other trade through, but apparently not. Armstrong was pretty open with his disappointment in how things played out after the window closed. Again though... we weren't contenders this year.

If you have an elite goalie then you can go into any postseason with the belief that you can win, even as a low seed. If you don't have a top goalie, you aren't winning with a flawed roster. We've been realistic about where we are and made logical moves on that basis.

Our defensive group isn't old at all. Top defensemen will typically age well, and our top-4 going forward are all 28 or younger.

The issue of Schwartz, Tarasenko and Schenn all being in their primes is a concern though. It doesn't mean we should be throwing futures at mediocre rentals to try and get in playoffs where we aren't going to succeed. That's how you end up like Detroit.
 
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Gurglesons

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Ummm... okay.

First thing is that it is probably best to get rid of the idea that the Blues were "sellers" at the last 2 deadlines.

With Shattenkirk we'd been working on trading him for almost 2 years at that point. It all became very public. We weren't going to be extending him, we had just lost Fabbri for the season and we had Parayko and Pietrangelo. We were already weaker than the prior season with the loss of Backes and Brouwer. It made sense to move Shattenkirk.

Trading Stastny was an attempt to get currency to make another trade to bring in a top-6 player. We clearly felt getting a first would push that other trade through, but apparently not. Armstrong was pretty open with his disappointment in how things played out after the window closed. Again though... we weren't contenders this year.

If you have an elite goalie then you can go into any postseason with the belief that you can win, even as a low seed. If you don't have a top goalie, you aren't winning with a flawed roster. We've been realistic about where we are and made logical moves on that basis.

Our defensive group isn't old at all. Top defensemen will typically age well, and our top-4 going forward are all 28 or younger.

The issue of Schwartz, Tarasenko and Schenn all being in their primes is a concern though. It doesn't mean we should be throwing futures at mediocre rentals to try and get in playoffs where we aren't going to succeed. That's how you end up like Detroit.

I agree, but how do you factor the Blues window with their current core?

Likely four years?

If you’re knowing you are moving Shattenkirk why not move out Statsny, Bouwmeester and look for a solution in goal last year?

It seems like Armstrong isn’t willing to commit. And while Schenn is obviously a great player (I was astounded Philly dealt him for what they did), isn’t he ultimately just switching Statsny out for Schenn at this point?

Obviously, the elephant in the room is Allen.

I don’t know, I get part of it is the conference the Blues play in, but I ultimately feel they are a little rudderless.
 

AjaxManifesto

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Ummm... okay.

First thing is that it is probably best to get rid of the idea that the Blues were "sellers" at the last 2 deadlines.

Uhhhh...if we weren't "sellers" at the TDL these last two years what were we? Certainly not "buyers".

BTW, I agree on the strategic reasons for sending Shatty and Staz elsewhere. In my view we are "sellers", albeit not cleaning the house sellers, these last two seasons. Call us "rental sellers" at the TDL.
 
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It seems like Armstrong isn’t willing to commit. And while Schenn is obviously a great player (I was astounded Philly dealt him for what they did), isn’t he ultimately just switching Statsny out for Schenn at this point?

We didn’t bring Schenn in to replace Stastny though. He was added as an additional top six center. Armstrong himself came out and admitted that his original plan was not to trade Stastny. It was only when we took a big fat dump leading into the deadline that he decided to make the trade wiring winnipeg.
 

Stealth JD

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I agree, but how do you factor the Blues window with their current core?

Likely four years?

If you’re knowing you are moving Shattenkirk why not move out Statsny, Bouwmeester and look for a solution in goal last year?

It seems like Armstrong isn’t willing to commit. And while Schenn is obviously a great player (I was astounded Philly dealt him for what they did), isn’t he ultimately just switching Statsny out for Schenn at this point?

Obviously, the elephant in the room is Allen.

I don’t know, I get part of it is the conference the Blues play in, but I ultimately feel they are a little rudderless.

it seems like your judging a collection of moves without knowledge of any context behind the moves, such as timing, payroll & system depth. The Blues couldn't move out Stastny, Bouw & find a new goalie last year...because last year the Blues were in a different spot then they find themselves today. You're suggesting trading your #1C (Stastny), #1LHD (Bouw), #1G (Allen) and #2RHD (Shatty)...while in the midst of a playoff run. What sense does that make?

You've got to look chronologically at the deals and consider the salary cap at that time, and system depth. Without that you'll end up saying some silly things like "Schenn for Stastny seems lateral or rudderless", instead of realizing that dumping the worst contract on the team (Lehtera) and bringing in Schenn was a stroke of genious. He essentially replaced a fraud top-6C, with an All-Star paying only futures, which allowed the team to have the best C-depth they've had in years, with Stastny anchoring the 2nd line. Unfortunately what Armstrong couldn't anticipate happening was Stastny losing his promising young line-mate (Fabbri) in training camp, Allen taking 3 steps back after an amazing playoff run last year, the forward depth providing nearly no offense, and the lineup being ravaged by injuries all season. It was at that point the club decided what was the smartest thing to do with their pending-UFA Center, Stastny. The fact that the club had just lost 5 in a row heading into the deadline should also be considered, as should their position in the standings, the pipeline, etc. As someone else pointed out, most people understanding of the context were fine with the moves and the direction. Unfortunately, some of the moves didn't turn out as had hoped...but that doesn't make the GM's moves aimless.
 

Alklha

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Uhhhh...if we weren't "sellers" at the TDL these last two years what were we? Certainly not "buyers".

BTW, I agree on the strategic reasons for sending Shatty and Staz elsewhere. In my view we are "sellers", albeit not cleaning the house sellers, these last two seasons. Call us "rental sellers" at the TDL.
I can understand calling us a seller on Shattenkirk. With Stastny we were attempting to get currency to make another move. Armstrong expected that day to end with adding another top-6 player. It didn't work out, but we didn't go in with the ideas of being sellers.
I agree, but how do you factor the Blues window with their current core?

Likely four years?
Talking about windows is difficult to do.

Our defence could be excellent for another decade.

The window with our current forwards as the spearheads? 4 years is probably about right.

In 2011/12, when Hitch first took over, our forwards were Backes, McDonald, Oshie, Perron, Stewart, Steen and Berglund. We've seen that change over the past 6 years.

We have Thomas, Kyrou, Kostin and Thompson now, who knows what we'll be saying in 2 years.
If you’re knowing you are moving Shattenkirk why not move out Statsny, Bouwmeester and look for a solution in goal last year?

It seems like Armstrong isn’t willing to commit. And while Schenn is obviously a great player (I was astounded Philly dealt him for what they did), isn’t he ultimately just switching Statsny out for Schenn at this point?

Obviously, the elephant in the room is Allen.

I don’t know, I get part of it is the conference the Blues play in, but I ultimately feel they are a little rudderless.
Shattenkirk was moved last year because we had Pietrangelo and Parayko.

We didn't have established replacements for Bouwmeester and Stastny.

We came into this season knowing it was a transition year. We still weren't planning on missing the playoffs. That happened because of the amount of injuries we've had, coupled with poor management.

Stastny was then traded because the circumstances changed over the season.

If we trade Bouwmeester, which is unlikely, it's because Dunn has developed into a top-4 defenseman this season.
 

bluetuned

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Seeing Schenn as a lateral replacement for Stastny is missing the current and future context of the moves.

Schenn at the time was a replacement and upgrade of Lehtera, not Stastny. Stastny was and remained one Top 6 center for the Blues. Lehtera was the other, and he had become a disaster. Schenn took over Lehtera's spot and the result was a 50 point swing.

Stastny being traded comes later and isn't really related. That was Armstrong seeing the writing on the wall for this season and moving an expiring contract so he could get something for it. The Blues were toast and even if they backed into the playoffs, they weren't going anywhere. It was just smart asset management.

Who replaces Stastny going forward is a question for this coming offseason. The obvious major target is Tavares, but there are plenty of other lesser options that could be had via trade or free agency. Bozak isn't sexy but seems like a realistic signing the Blues could make if they're priced out of Tavares. There even remains some possibility we could re-sign Stastny, though I doubt that happens.

Even if you want to look at Schenn as a replacement for Stastny, Schenn is 6 years younger and going to be the better player going forward. It still wouldn't be a lateral move.
 
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Zamadoo

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Any disconnect Army has with the team he makes up for with the farm system.

Aging D core is of no concern with our D prospects on the way. Two oldest defenceman are Bouwmeester and Gunnarsson, who are both gone after next season (if not before). Everybody else is 28 or below
 

GoldenSeal

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Hello Blues fans,

I’ve always been a fan of St. Louis and think overall Armstrong has made some very good deals, but I have a question. Do Blues fans feel like the last two years have proven that he has no feel for his team?

He has made two gigantic trades at the deadline weakening a squad that seems like they could do damage in the playoffs. The d-core isn’t getting any younger and if he truly is trying to retool why has Allen stuck around and why would you trade assets for Schenn (who has had a great season, but still)

It seems to me that Armstrong has lost the feel for the team, and while he’s done some great work in St. Louis his time is up after the Shattenkirk and Statsny trades.

The Blues front office, regardless what they say, has no interest in winning it all. They seem to be clinging on to the belief that they can draft all their solutions and ELC them on the cheap or acquire players for cheap that will take the place of top line talent. It is an easier road to train a D Corps than a talented, dynamic Offense, which is why the Blues have more of one than the other. They need to pay for the pieces they're missing and hopefully they can acquire them. Doug Armstrong is good only for a team that rebuilds, nothing more, nothing less. Mike Yeo is the most useless coach this side of useless. There is no such thing as a Year 3 Retool, yet here we are. The front office has proven that they are incapable of solving problems detrimental to the team in a timely fashion. Drafting a solution can take years and when you have a core, you build on it ASAP and make the years count. It's ridiculous beyond words that the Blues spend to the Cap and are where they are at now. With the money spent and the players they have drafted, there is still a large hole at C, even when Stastny was here. The team still suffers from horrible lack of Offense and now has a PP unit that is beyond useless.

Every point you have made is spot-on. The fanbase continues to allow for a next year when that nonsense should have stopped a long, long time ago. The front office is allowed to continue this nonsense and the team is getting worse. I am about done with the level of blatant stupidity that the team is handing down to the players, yet expecting them to go out there and give it their all 82 games a year while the Front Office has given up on the team by the TDL, like they did this year. They threw in the towel and didn't even try to help better the team's chances. Whatever they said they did, I flat out don't believe them. I don't see the desire to win in them and I don't see the front office giving them the tools to compete. I've lived long enough to see this team for a good period of time and I'm done with the half-heart, half attempt, not-good enough, mismanaged mess that has become this Franchise's identity. The success of many teams stem from this team's failure and I'm tired of being represented by that.

If nothing happens in this offseason, I'm done with this team. Stillman says he's such a fan, I want to see him prove it and I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it, nor do I think we will see it.
 

AjaxManifesto

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The Blues front office, regardless what they say, has no interest in winning it all. They seem to be clinging on to the belief that they can draft all their solutions and ELC them on the cheap or acquire players for cheap that will take the place of top line talent. It is an easier road to train a D Corps than a talented, dynamic Offense, which is why the Blues have more of one than the other. They need to pay for the pieces they're missing and hopefully they can acquire them. Doug Armstrong is good only for a team that rebuilds, nothing more, nothing less. Mike Yeo is the most useless coach this side of useless. There is no such thing as a Year 3 Retool, yet here we are. The front office has proven that they are incapable of solving problems detrimental to the team in a timely fashion. Drafting a solution can take years and when you have a core, you build on it ASAP and make the years count. It's ridiculous beyond words that the Blues spend to the Cap and are where they are at now. With the money spent and the players they have drafted, there is still a large hole at C, even when Stastny was here. The team still suffers from horrible lack of Offense and now has a PP unit that is beyond useless.

Every point you have made is spot-on. The fanbase continues to allow for a next year when that nonsense should have stopped a long, long time ago. The front office is allowed to continue this nonsense and the team is getting worse. I am about done with the level of blatant stupidity that the team is handing down to the players, yet expecting them to go out there and give it their all 82 games a year while the Front Office has given up on the team by the TDL, like they did this year. They threw in the towel and didn't even try to help better the team's chances. Whatever they said they did, I flat out don't believe them. I don't see the desire to win in them and I don't see the front office giving them the tools to compete. I've lived long enough to see this team for a good period of time and I'm done with the half-heart, half attempt, not-good enough, mismanaged mess that has become this Franchise's identity. The success of many teams stem from this team's failure and I'm tired of being represented by that.

If nothing happens in this offseason, I'm done with this team. Stillman says he's such a fan, I want to see him prove it and I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it, nor do I think we will see it.


Woah...

You post at STLToday? You sound terribly negative.

I think everyone needs a month or two off.
 

carter333167

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I've gone on record saying that I wouldn't trade Kyrou or Thomas for a roster player.........but I think I might part with either of them if we also swapped DA for Yzerman.
 
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GoldenSeal

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I’m a Penguins fan so I’ll put it this way. I have no issue with the Dumo, Maatta and Schultz contracts, but as a whole for the Penguins to be spending what they are on the D, the contracts seem like someone missing something about the team dynamic.

Armstrong’s decisions seem to run the same way. The Schenn, Statsny and Shattenkirk trades all make sense in a vacuum, but if you’re selling off assets while having a somewhat successful team, why aren’t you going full retool?

It seems like Armstrong is just shuffling chairs for continued mediocrity. He’s a great GM, but ultimately fresh eyes and a GM not attached to these players may help. Or maybe they’re the next Jets.

But, from what I’m gathering this is incorrect.

Spot-On
 

GoldenSeal

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Woah...

You post at STLToday? You sound terribly negative.

I think everyone needs a month or two off.

You mean there's been something positive about this team? Some glimmer of promise or hope that they're moving in the right direction or that things will get better? Maybe in a few years when they decide to blow up the team and start over. If Stillman does some major moves in the offseason I won't be shocked, there needs to be an answer to this but Mike Yeo will still be coach and even if he's somehow not, you got a Dog & Pony show for a coaching staff and a team that's looking gutted out with no ready-to-go replacements in sight. That's not how you build a contender and I'm pretty much done with this team at this point. "Maybe Next Year" has become their slogan and I'm not hearing it anymore until I actually see it.
 

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