Do You Consider Ovechkin Generational?

[sr edler]

By that logic, if Rocket is not a major trophy, then Conn Smythe and especially Stanley Cup are not major trophies as well. There are tons of names worse than Bondra on either one.
And also, what are we going to do with Hart (won by Theodore) and Art Ross (won by Benn)?
And Lindsay/Pearson once went to Liut (over young Gretzky) and Ratelle.

Also, you can check out the Hart votes to see that Crosby was way, way behind OV (and Malkin/Datsyuk for that matter) in 2007-2010.

All awards needs to be evaluated within context, of course. Not every Conn Smythe or Hart or Rocket or whatever is the same, performance wise. Non-contextual award counting is just dumb. Nieuwendyk has 1 Conn Smythe while Kopitar has 0. Does that mean Nieuwendyk’s run in 99 must be better than Kopitar’s, or that he was a better playoff performer?

 

[VoluntaryDom]

debatable. i'll say yes. weird, 2 generational players that generation.

 

[end]

Ovechkin to the cap era is what Bobby Hull was to the 1960s or Phil Esposito was to the 1970s. If time ran backwards Ovechkin would be the historical Maurice Richard and the Rocket would be considered the modern Ovechkin.

Bobby Hull led the league in goals 7 times, Phil Esposito led 6 times and Ovechkin led the league 6 times. Richard, Howe and Gretzky only managed 5 times. Ovie has a shot to tie what I think is an extremely important record; it shows both dominance and consistency/longevity.

For people getting hung up on the generational thing, was there no generational player in the 50s? I think there was two. I think there was two generational players from 85-97. Were there no generational players in the 60s? Were Mikita, Beliveau, Hull, Mahovlich minor powers a la the early oughts?

 

[Jumptheshark]

debatable. i'll say yes. weird, 2 generational players that generation.

well based on previous threads in the last 15 years we have had about 7

starting to hate that term

 

[VoluntaryDom]

well based on previous threads in the last 15 years we have had about 7

starting to hate that term

Crosby and ovechkin are generational that's it

 

[Jumptheshark]

Crosby and ovechkin are generational that's it

like I said

based upon previous threads calling player X generational over the past 15 years

 

[VoluntaryDom]

like I said

based upon previous threads calling player X generational over the past 15 years

ya

 

[3rdLiner]

Yeah Ovechkin is definitely generational. I'd say at any point in the NHL you probably have between 2-5 generational players. This includes those on the rise to generational (McDavid) those in the prime of generational (Ovy/Crosby) and those on the decline/retiring generational (Lundqvist, Chara, Thornton).

You can still be a "generational" player before/in/out of your prime.

 

[daver]

Yes, players on the teams that do not make playoffs are often snubbed in Hart voting. Hart votes are funny that way. (A good recent example would be Jamie Benn in 14/15 - Art Ross, Lindsay nomination, but only 12th in Hart voting).

However, Crosby does not get to use this excuse to explain the yawning gap between his and OV's Hart votes in 2007-2010.

Just pointing out that counting a Richard as a "major" trophy and ignoring Hart nominations creates a misleading picture.

Crosby has a better a Hart record than OV despite missing three opportunities to win or garner a nomination.

That being said, yes, if one looks exclusively at 07 to 10, OV had the better regular season resume.

 

[daver]

Fun fact, Ovechkin actually WON the Hart in 13/14.

And to the OP's question: You don't?

When Ovechkin is gone and you're left with "generational" talents Connor McDavid and Auston Matthews and their 30-40 goals per season, maybe then you will understand what you have witnessed the last 12 plus seasons.

Fun fact: you are wrong.

But seriously, if you want to apply the generational label to OV it is as a goalscorer, and noone should have an issue with that. He is among a shortlist of 5 other players who are at the top tier of the "best goalscorers of all-time".

 

[LeafGrief]

Best goal scorer of all time? Sure

Best player of his era/generational? No. That's Crosby.

 

[discobob]

I've been away from these boards for a while, and this is the first thread I've read in 2ish years... and now I remember why I got sick of reading!

This is the same stupid argument that has been retread for years.

And yes, OV is a generational talent! ...no need explanation needed...

 

[Sam Spade]

Fun fact: you are wrong.

But seriously, if you want to apply the generational label to OV it is as a goalscorer, and noone should have an issue with that. He is among a shortlist of 5 other players who are at the top tier of the "best goalscorers of all-time".

I corrected it but you are too quick for me.

And I can't believe you are willing to even give Ovechkin this much. We are both growing as hockey fans daver, and making real progress.

 

[amnesiac]

Yes the greatest goal scorer of all-time is generational.

 

[Murzu]

This is NOT going to be a popular opinion but I think Ovechkin is generational and Crosby is not. In my opinion Ovechkin has a legit chance to be the greatest goal scorer of all time which makes him generational in my opinion.

Of course this all comes down to the question: what do you think generational means? I think it's a label that is used way too loosely.

 

[daver]

This is NOT going to be a popular opinion but I think Ovechkin is generational and Crosby is not. In my opinion Ovechkin has a legit chance to be the greatest goal scorer of all time which makes him generational in my opinion.

Of course this all comes down to the question: what do you think generational means? I think it's a label that is used way too loosely.

Does this means OV is better in your eyes than Crosby or has had a better career?

 

[Murzu]

Does this means OV is better in your eyes than Crosby or has had a better career?

Crosby is currently the better player, no question about it. But Ovechkins career is more.. history shaking. People talk about him being possibly the greatest goal scorer of all time and adjusted numbers back up this claim. Crosby is elite level player, Crosby is franchise talent, and Crosby has been the best player for multiple years during the last ~10 years, but Crosby doesn't change the history pages by being best in anything if we consider the whole history of the NHL. He is "just" a complete package of being excellent in pretty much every aspect of the game. I feel bad writing this as I think I will be misunderstood. I don't want to downplay Crosby, that's not my intention at all.

 

[mrv52]

Crosby is currently the better player, no question about it. But Ovechkins career is more.. history shaking. People talk about him being possibly the greatest goal scorer of all time and adjusted numbers back up this claim. Crosby is elite level player, Crosby is franchise talent, and Crosby has been the best player for multiple years during the last ~10 years, but Crosby doesn't change the history pages by being best in anything if we consider the whole history of the NHL. He is "just" a complete package of being excellent in pretty much every aspect of the game. I feel bad writing this as I think I will be misunderstood. I don't want to downplay Crosby, that's not my intention at all.

This is the way most reasonable people view things, or at least, IMO, should. Unfortunately, there are many around these parts that feel the strong desire to justify Crosby as the bestest best bestest of the best. Its an affliction borne from extreme insecurity, hence the subject again is mentioned in a thread not even about him.

 

[Kamiccolo]

HFboards is what have you done for me lately, so a lot will say no. Everyone else knows of course he is. Generational goal scorer, elite player who in his prime was truly something special with his combo of shooting, offensive IQ, and size and strength.

I honestly expect if Crosby struggles a season or two and he is 36 or 37 this thread will appear with a few saying he isn't.

 

[SotasicA]

I'd say no. He's not the best player of our generation.

I think Gretzky and Orr go down as generational players. It's like a dynasty is for teams. Crosby is the closest we've had in recent times, and we expectt to remember him as such and McDavid is a generational talent though it remains to be seen if he'll live up to being a generational player (eg. Lindros was a generational talent, too, but his career didn't end up the way it was projected).

 

[shtorm2005]

Of course Crosby is better overall, he doesn`t have a choice to play 2-way, he`s a center player. Ovy`s winger, its okay for him to be weaker at defense. He`s a specialist in offensive zone, best goalscorer. So, saying Crosby is better because his better overall its like saying that Jeep is better than Ferrari because u can use it at any road. And btw, Ovy`s backchecking this year pretty well.

 

[Fataldogg]

Neither Crosby nor Ovechkin are generational in my eyes. While Cros has come out ahead in the end run, he hasn't been that much better than OV and was for a period behind him.

For me, generational would describe a player far above his peers. Gretzky, Orr, etc.

So, Jagr winning 4 scoring titles in a row, and 5 out of 6 years, would be generational right?

That is a level of dominance very few have ever achieved. That's why I get confused when people say Jagr wasn't generational.

 

[Fataldogg]

The Rocket Richard isn’t a major trophy, because if it was then Cheechoo would have a trophy and Bondra would have two. Ovi is a generational goal scorer but not a generational overall player. He had a window between 2007–2010 where he played like one but it was only three years and he still wasn’t a better overall player than Crosby.

Bondra was a 500+ goal scorer. What's your point? In reality, he is one of the better goal scorers over the last 25 years.

A Rocket Richard is a major award. I don't see anyone diminish it when Crosby won it [because he is Canadian it counts more?].

I don't get that logic. And in that respect, Ovechkin won 3 Hart trophies, far and away the most prestigious individual award.

 

[Melkor]

Crosby is currently the better player, no question about it. But Ovechkins career is more.. history shaking. People talk about him being possibly the greatest goal scorer of all time and adjusted numbers back up this claim. Crosby is elite level player, Crosby is franchise talent, and Crosby has been the best player for multiple years during the last ~10 years, but Crosby doesn't change the history pages by being best in anything if we consider the whole history of the NHL. He is "just" a complete package of being excellent in pretty much every aspect of the game. I feel bad writing this as I think I will be misunderstood. I don't want to downplay Crosby, that's not my intention at all.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[tacogeoff]

Crosby is currently the better player, no question about it. But Ovechkins career is more.. history shaking. People talk about him being possibly the greatest goal scorer of all time and adjusted numbers back up this claim. Crosby is elite level player, Crosby is franchise talent, and Crosby has been the best player for multiple years during the last ~10 years, but Crosby doesn't change the history pages by being best in anything if we consider the whole history of the NHL. He is "just" a complete package of being excellent in pretty much every aspect of the game. I feel bad writing this as I think I will be misunderstood. I don't want to downplay Crosby, that's not my intention at all.

very well said.