Do these guys deserve the Hall?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, May 17, 2007.

  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Just a few random players I thought I'd list that arent in the Hall of Fame. Some of them may deserve it and others shouldnt even be mentioned. I just thought it would be nice to brainstrom a bit to see what we get.

    Charlie Simmer - I'm not spearheading a movement to get him in there by any means. He had basically two great seasons and yes they were both great. '79-80 and in '80-81. Both times he was a 1st team all-star. He scored 56 goals in back to back seasons once in which he led the league. In both of those years he played just 64 and 65 games. His highest point totals are 105, 101 (in those two years) followed by 92, 80, 69. Career wise Simmer had 711 points in 712 games. Pretty god but he managed to play in only 24 playoff games. Some might say he was nothingh without Dionne and while he wasnt great after LA he still was pretty much a point a game player. IMO he was at least two great seasons away from a Hall of Fame career. A couple more like '80-81 and we'd be talking.

    Dave Taylor - Twice a 100 point man. Second team all-star in '81. No Cups and 1069 points in 1111 games. His individual seasons are pretty good. He had seasons of 112, 106, 92, 91, 90 points. He had a pretty good peak value and I think on his own without Dionne he was the better player between him and Simmer. But although a lack of a Cup doesnt bug me about him its his playoff record. 92 games and 59 points. The big year the Kings had the upset in '82 he had 10 playoff points but other than that nothing stands out. Taylor never had that playoff coming out party, and he was never thought of as a winner. Its hard to associate him with greatness but some have to a certain extent. Personally I dont think he belongs in the Hall.

    John Tonelli - I have always liked him. This guy was an underrated part of the Isles dynasty. Here's his credentials: 4 Stanley Cups, 6 Cup final appearances, Canada Cup MVP in '84 in which he played brilliant and two second team all-stars in '82 and '85. His career points are 836 in 1028 games. Not something that jumps out at you but he was more than just numbers. His peak wasnt too bad either. His best seasons are 100, 93, 71, 68, 69, 67 points. I'm not saying its a shame he isnt in the Hall but I've always felt that a guy like him should have been in over Gillies. If any other Islander from those teams goes in I would have picked him. That doesnt mean he should go in, you have to ask yourself does the name John Tonelli get associated with greatness?

    Kent Nilsson - He had a somewhat brief NHL career, but you cant forget that he played in Sweden as well. But in the NHL he was dynamite. Just too short of a prime. He had stellar seasons of 131, 104, 99, 93 and 80 points. He helped Edmonton win the Cup in '87 and he was a huge part of Sweden's team at the '84 Canada Cup. Personally I dont know how his NHL and international career havent put him over the top. He was as talented as they came. He had 686 points in 553 career games. And its not like he couldnt score in the playoffs either, he had 52 in 59 games.

    Kevin Stevens - He had a weird NHL career. Up until his injur in '93 he looked like a free ticket to the Hall, but after that he only had one good year and that was it. If he gets into the Hall it will have to be based on 5 years from '89-94. Luckily they were pretty good. His points go like this 123, 111, 88, 86, 70. After that it's a big drop. Its too bad what happened to Stevens with the drugs outside of the game and I'm sure that has hindered hs chances because his credentials are in the ballpark. He was a first team all-star in '92 and a second team in '91 and '93. He was a huge part of the Pens two Cup victories and it might surprise people that he has 106 playoff points in 103 games. That's pretty good. In the years the Pens won the Cup he had 33 and 28 playoff points. I think he's been good enough. His 726 career points might hurt him but reall his career is not unlike Bill Barber's. Both were left wingers, both had at least one monster seasons, both 3 time all-stars, both two time Cup winners and big parts of them too. Plus Stevens would have had to be considered a top 10 player in the game for a couple years for sure. To me he should be in.
     
  2. Pwnasaurus

    Pwnasaurus Registered User

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    I don't think any of them should be. But I'm a lot tougher on players than the HOF is.
     
  3. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    None of the above.
     
  4. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    None of the above should get in. All were awesome hockey players and all should always be remembered by hockey fans but non were consistently great enough to be in the Hall of Fame. Either they were just consistently very good like Tonelli and Taylor but never top echelon superstars or they were only HHOF caliber for a short period like Simmer and Stevens.

    Nilsson has the best case. Though the HHOF is too NHL centric to ever let him in his WHA, NHL, Swedish career makes me think and maybe some voters that he was a true top echlon player for a long, long time. But too little of that was in the NHL for him to get in.
     
  5. isles52480

    isles52480 Registered User

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    Let's get this out of the way now...

    'If Clark Gillies is in the HOF then they all belong in the HOF'.

    This has been a public service announcement. Now, back to your regular programming.
     
  6. Big#D

    Big#D __________________

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    None of them should be in the Hall but I still think that the Kings should have retired Simmers' jersey to sit up there with Dionne and Taylor.
     
  7. Ofuzz

    Ofuzz Registered User

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    I feel, of the ones you've listed, only Tonelli has an outside chance at the Hall. He and Goring were just as key to the Isles playoff successes as Trottier, Bossy, Gillies and Smith were. I agree that Gillies shouldn't be in the Hall. Dick Duff? Please. Stevens and Simmer are a definite no. Nilsson will never get credit for his international career. And Taylor, although a step up from Simmer, really has to credit Dionne for most of his offensive success.

    But none of these players should be getting Hall consideration until the committee rights the wrong of Rogie Vachon's exclusion. But that's a different thread for a different day.
     
  8. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    When it comes to classic Kings, that is the only ommision. Most players not in the Hall, simply shouldn't be. There are only a handful of NHLers who are ommisions. There are some Europeans though.

    As for Nilson, even if the HHoF began counting international careers, his is not that high on the list, not when compaired with Mikhailov, Firsov, Johansson, Nedomansky, Holocek, Bobrov and others.
     
  9. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Yes but Nilsson has NHL and WHA credit and the other Euros you mention don't. We know Nilsson what would be in the NHL because he played in the NHL. Nilsson was alot better in the NHL than Krutov, Larionov, Makarov and Fetisov though those guys came over later in their careers. Nilsson's WHA career may actually count against him in HHOF votes. Since pretty much every WHA star has seen their HHOF candiacy damaged by the WHA. Aside from Gretzky, Hull and Howe most WHA stars are shunned by the HHOF. Or Tremblay and Howe would be in the HHOF.
     
  10. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Nedomansky has WHA and NHL credit too. But your point holds some weight.

    On that note, Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson, HHoF worthy?
     
  11. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Looking just at their WHA-NHL stats (I never saw them play), I'd have to say no. They put up huge points in the WHA, but when they moved to the NHL (still in their 20's I believe), their totals were unspectacular considering the era they played in.
     
  12. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    No to all five. I think they all have something going for them to get them to discussion phase, but I wouldn't put any of them in.

    Simmer: Good guy, good work ethic, excellent size and terrific goal scoring instincts. Might be the worst skater with two first-team all-star selections to his credit at forward. Keep in mind that he was an all-star at LW, and LW has been the weakest position in the league, by a wide margin, over the last 35 years. Didn't have much of a chance to do anything in the playoffs.

    Taylor: Great guy. Only player to win the Masterton and the Clancy in the same season. Excellent scorer's touch, and a nice touch of grit to go with it. But the 1,000 point and 1,500 PIM combo just isn't as special as it once was. Career numbers don't mean as much to HHOF voters as they used to, and his good guy element isn't enough to push him over the top. One all-star team selection, and good, but not eye-popping, playoff numbers.

    Tonelli: Likely the best bet of the bench, but still a very longshot. Excellent hockey player whose contributions to a team transcended mere stats. Hard worker, excellent in the corners, very good skill. Two second-team births at LW in the 80s doesn't do anything for me. If international play counted, then he would get a lot more milage out of that Canada Cup MVP. A big part of those Islander teams in the 1980s, although never the guy who you said he was their MVP, or second-best or third-best player.
    Phil, just to counter your take with Gillies: the Islanders will tell you that they are still looking for their next Clarke Gillies. They thought they had him in Bertuzzi. And I think they'd want the next Clarke Gillies over the next John Tonelli.

    Nilsson: If there was a stick-handling HOF, Nilsson would be there. Some of the best hands and playmaking ability the game has ever seen. If international play meant anything, he would also likely get in. He is a member of the IIHF HOF. His numbers are magnificent, including a third place finish in the scoring race in his second NHL season. But he was also soft, and could be moody at times, too.

    Stevens: He never recovered from the frightening injury suffered in Game 7 of the Patrick Division final. Quite possibly the best peak value for an LW in the last 30 years, which should tell you something about the state of the LW position over the last 30 years, and why his three all-star selections should be taken with a grain of salt. A dominant combination of skill, toughness and strength who was an impact player for the Pens' back-to-back championship teams. Not enough longevity, and our last memories of him aren't positive, with the way he bounced around the league as an ineffective veteran, and then wound up in trouble with the law.
     
  13. kovy1335

    kovy1335 Registered User

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    Stevens... he makes me sadder to see than any other current/former Penguin.

    When the Pens finally got him back in 2001, he was only a shell of his former self. It was obvious he's had alot of mental problems.

    That said, it was heart-warming that year to see him lift his game back up when he got the chance to play with his old buddy Mario. (23 pts in 32 games)

    I think he would have had a nice resurgence in '01-02 had it not been for the playoff knee-injury the year before that finally slowed him down too much to be effective.

    As long as we're talking about Stevens, what about his former partner in crime(no pun intended), Rick Tocchet?

    Stevens:
    GP: 874
    G: 329
    A: 397
    PTS: 726
    PIM: 1470
    1x 1st team all-star
    2x 2nd team all-star
    most goals by a US born player (55, 92-93)
    playoffs goals leader in 1991 (17)

    Tocchet:
    GP: 1144
    G: 440
    A: 512
    PTS: 952
    PIM: 2972
    Stanley Cup Lost(Philadelphia, 85, 87)
    Stanley Cup Won(Pittsburgh, 92)
    One of only two players with 400 goals and 2000 PIM
     
  14. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    No because they could not dominate the NHL like the WHA, Kent Nilsson did do it. Though of course Ulf and Hedberg played longer in the WHA and were truly the class of the league for several seasons.

    I am not saying Kent deserves the HHOF but that a really credible argument can be made for him. I wouldn't put him in. I could however see someone beilieving he should be in. Unlike Simmer, Taylor, Stevens and Tonelli who can't have a serious argument made for them.
     
  15. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    A lot of people would say that. I guess it isnt a wrong statement but I've always felt Tonelli was at LEAST as important to that dynasty as Gillies. I like Gillies, and what I hate is that people forget that he was a very good player - the only Canadian who scored in that woeful '81 Canada Cup game - but rather people focus on him being one of the worst players in the Hall. Still I like Tonelli over him though.
     
  16. MS

    MS Registered User

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    Stevens' career is almost a carbon copy of Gillies'.

    Nearly identical career stats, both were the top LW in the game while playing for a multiple Cup winner, similar All-Star berths, similar short (~5 seasons) prime.

    So on the 'if X made it, Y should' basis, Stevens has a pretty legitimate claim. That said, none of those 5 guys should be there. Although all except for possibly Simmer would have been better choices than Dick Duff.
     
  17. Chili

    Chili Registered User

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    Stevens looked like a hall of fame talent but injuries set him back.

    Tonelli is interesting, deserves some consideration but probably would fall short with me.

    Simmer is another guy who wasn't the same after he was seriously injured, he could hardly skate after that.

    Kent Nilsson, very good player but not a hof'er for me.

    Dave Taylor, nice career but not quite a hof'er.

    As others mentioned, Rogie Vachon is a hof'er to me as well as Boris Mikhailov as well as a number of other European players.
     

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