Hey personally I lvoed the debates in the other two threads. Why not a thrid one. Once again I tried not to use the same old names as we usually debate. Just wanted to freshen things up a bit. Again none, of these guys are in the Hall yet, even if they are retired and eligible. Just more names to throw out. Have fun. Rick Martin - How many people know that Martin has a better PPG game and a better GPG than Neely. Its true. A lot of people will dismiss Martin before he even comes up but I always ask why? Sure him not being in the Hall isnt the biggest oversight but his name should come up more often than it does IMO. Not saying he has to be in there or am I comparing him to guys that had shortened careers as well like Bure or Neely but lets look at his stats. His points go like this: 95, 86, 86, 79, 74, 73. Yes that isnt Hall caliber but he was twice a top ten scorer and was on two very prominent Team Canada's '72 and '76. He was a first team all-star in '74 and '75 and a second team in '76 and '77. Say all you want about the weak LW position but his goal scoring is fairly eye popping. His best goal seasons are 52, 52, 49, 45, 44. His career points are 701 in 685 games. He has no Cup just one Cup finals and has average playoff numbers. Martin might have been a lock had his carer not been cut short by a knee injury that didnt let him play after 30. his biggest claim to fame is the French Connection Line and while Perreault was the best on that line Martin I felt was better than Robert. Yes I know Robert is no HHOFer but Martin still deserves a little more talk about him. Lorne Chabot - There isnt always a lot of talk about him. He won two Stanley Cups and had that one big ear in 1935. As a goalie he isnt the first name out of your breath when the Hall comes knocking but he has a great record of 201-148-62 with 73 career shutouts. He led the league in GAA in 1935. Unfortunately in the 30's there arent a lot of all-time great goalies so a lot of times I think he gets put on the backburner. Like someone trying to lose weight, the longer time passes the harder it gets. Mike Liut - I told you there would be different names. Yes Liut has one thing that jumps out a you when you mention his name. Heck even me - call it the Tommy Salo factor - but when Liut's name is spoken I immiediately think of the Canada Cup 1981. But forget that awful game just for a minute, and remember he was actually pretty good in that tourny before that game and was considered the best one Canada had to offer at the time (althought Smith should have been there as #1 not #3). His career numbers arent too bad considering he was never on a team that was going to go anywhere in the playoffs either. He was a first team all-star in '81 and a secodn team in '87 so he has some hardware. Not to mention he was good enough to be voted the Pearson Award in '81. That's high praise that your own peers consider you more valuable than Gretzky. His career numbers are 294-271-74. He's about .500 in the playoffs. He won over 30 games 3 times. And lets face it if ou put Roy in a Hartford Whalers uniform does he bring a Cup home either? Again I'm not saying he MUST be in the Hall but he gets very little respect around here and all I'm saying is that he's better than he was remembered. Sergei Makarov - Personally I hope no one says no to him. He didnt start in the NHL until he was 31 keep in mind. 384 career points in 424 NHL games isnt bad either but that's not what I'd induct him for. It's what he did in the '80s. Can you imagine him in the NHL then? Makarov was fast, strong, could stick handle in a phone booth and never, ever quit. Look at the way he played in the Canada Cups, even against Canada. Some of the best defenseman in the world couldnt stop him. He scared me. Makarov might arguably be the equivalent of Kurri in the NHL. To me I think he was just that good. The problem is unlike Kharlamov we had the opportunity to see him in the NHL and the fact that he didnt rip it up might hurt him. He was 31 too though. As for the best players on the KLM line, at their peak, I'd take Makarov. Put him in the Hall for crying out loud. Fred Shero - Love him or hate him. Freddy "the fog" is a guy you sometimes assume is in there. He isnt. Yes he had a shortened coaching career. He only coached ten years but had a 390-225-119 record. Plus a 63-47 playoff record. His peak alone was great. Two Cups, one Coach of the Year award and 5 straight 100-point teams. In total Shero coached in 4 Cup finals. His style was unpopular but it worked. Even after he left Philly his Rangers teams did pretty good. Shero built Philly from the ground up. In '71 four years after they joined the NHL it took him three years to make them a winner. I like Bowman but Shero didnt have the luxury of coaching and then the next minute having Guy Lafleur get drafted on his team. No Shero isnt Bowman, so dont even start, but shortened or not from what he did it merits a HHOF inclusion.