Do these guys deserve the Hall part #3

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, May 20, 2007.

  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Hey personally I lvoed the debates in the other two threads. Why not a thrid one. Once again I tried not to use the same old names as we usually debate. Just wanted to freshen things up a bit. Again none, of these guys are in the Hall yet, even if they are retired and eligible. Just more names to throw out. Have fun.

    Rick Martin - How many people know that Martin has a better PPG game and a better GPG than Neely. Its true. A lot of people will dismiss Martin before he even comes up but I always ask why? Sure him not being in the Hall isnt the biggest oversight but his name should come up more often than it does IMO. Not saying he has to be in there or am I comparing him to guys that had shortened careers as well like Bure or Neely but lets look at his stats. His points go like this: 95, 86, 86, 79, 74, 73. Yes that isnt Hall caliber but he was twice a top ten scorer and was on two very prominent Team Canada's '72 and '76. He was a first team all-star in '74 and '75 and a second team in '76 and '77. Say all you want about the weak LW position but his goal scoring is fairly eye popping. His best goal seasons are 52, 52, 49, 45, 44. His career points are 701 in 685 games. He has no Cup just one Cup finals and has average playoff numbers. Martin might have been a lock had his carer not been cut short by a knee injury that didnt let him play after 30. his biggest claim to fame is the French Connection Line and while Perreault was the best on that line Martin I felt was better than Robert. Yes I know Robert is no HHOFer but Martin still deserves a little more talk about him.

    Lorne Chabot - There isnt always a lot of talk about him. He won two Stanley Cups and had that one big ear in 1935. As a goalie he isnt the first name out of your breath when the Hall comes knocking but he has a great record of 201-148-62 with 73 career shutouts. He led the league in GAA in 1935. Unfortunately in the 30's there arent a lot of all-time great goalies so a lot of times I think he gets put on the backburner. Like someone trying to lose weight, the longer time passes the harder it gets.

    Mike Liut - I told you there would be different names. Yes Liut has one thing that jumps out a you when you mention his name. Heck even me - call it the Tommy Salo factor - but when Liut's name is spoken I immiediately think of the Canada Cup 1981. But forget that awful game just for a minute, and remember he was actually pretty good in that tourny before that game and was considered the best one Canada had to offer at the time (althought Smith should have been there as #1 not #3). His career numbers arent too bad considering he was never on a team that was going to go anywhere in the playoffs either. He was a first team all-star in '81 and a secodn team in '87 so he has some hardware. Not to mention he was good enough to be voted the Pearson Award in '81. That's high praise that your own peers consider you more valuable than Gretzky. His career numbers are 294-271-74. He's about .500 in the playoffs. He won over 30 games 3 times. And lets face it if ou put Roy in a Hartford Whalers uniform does he bring a Cup home either? Again I'm not saying he MUST be in the Hall but he gets very little respect around here and all I'm saying is that he's better than he was remembered.

    Sergei Makarov - Personally I hope no one says no to him. He didnt start in the NHL until he was 31 keep in mind. 384 career points in 424 NHL games isnt bad either but that's not what I'd induct him for. It's what he did in the '80s. Can you imagine him in the NHL then? Makarov was fast, strong, could stick handle in a phone booth and never, ever quit. Look at the way he played in the Canada Cups, even against Canada. Some of the best defenseman in the world couldnt stop him. He scared me. Makarov might arguably be the equivalent of Kurri in the NHL. To me I think he was just that good. The problem is unlike Kharlamov we had the opportunity to see him in the NHL and the fact that he didnt rip it up might hurt him. He was 31 too though. As for the best players on the KLM line, at their peak, I'd take Makarov. Put him in the Hall for crying out loud.

    Fred Shero - Love him or hate him. Freddy "the fog" is a guy you sometimes assume is in there. He isnt. Yes he had a shortened coaching career. He only coached ten years but had a 390-225-119 record. Plus a 63-47 playoff record. His peak alone was great. Two Cups, one Coach of the Year award and 5 straight 100-point teams. In total Shero coached in 4 Cup finals. His style was unpopular but it worked. Even after he left Philly his Rangers teams did pretty good. Shero built Philly from the ground up. In '71 four years after they joined the NHL it took him three years to make them a winner. I like Bowman but Shero didnt have the luxury of coaching and then the next minute having Guy Lafleur get drafted on his team. No Shero isnt Bowman, so dont even start, but shortened or not from what he did it merits a HHOF inclusion.
     
  2. vancityluongo

    vancityluongo Twin Benning Sponsor

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    Yes to Chabot and Makarov.

    Another guy I thought would be interesting to debate is Chris Pronger. Is he Hall material yet?
     
  3. pitseleh

    pitseleh Registered User

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    Yes to Makarov and Shero.

    Chabot is a borderline candidate, IMO.

    No to Martin and Liut.

    I'd say Pronger is already borderline with his current resume (not even including this season) but unless he has a radical decline in his game, he'll have Hall credentials by the time he retires for sure.
     
  4. Nalyd Psycho

    Nalyd Psycho Registered User

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    Absolutly with Makarov. The KLM line is one of the top 5 in hockey history, and he was the best offensive player on the unit.

    Martin, no, when it comes to short careers, IMO, something has to grab you and convince you. Neely was one of a kind in how he played. Martin wasn't even his lines best player.

    Liut, no, he was one of the better goalies in the worst goalie era in hockey history.

    Chabot, I'd have no objection, but I'm not really motivated to push for him. Short career hurts.

    Shero, forget about talking about it while his opponents are the commitee.
     
  5. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Pronger is a "lights out" Hall of Famer right now. By the end of this year if he retires he's in. Think about it Second team all-star in '98, '04 and most likely '07. First team in '00. Hart Trophy winner in '00, Norris in '00, nearly a Conn Smythe winner last year. The guy's been a top 5 defenseman for quite a few years. Very few can dominate the game like him. There's a reason why only him and Orr have won the Hart as d-men in the last 35 years.

    If this was 2004 then Pronger is debatable. But after his playoff performance last year and being a top 3 defenseman again this year can anyone really legitimately say that a guy with his credentials is out? By the age of 32 he has 4 all-star selections. What would make you think he's not in the HHOF by now?
     
  6. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Pronger is, at this point, a slam dunk. Lidstrom is the only defender better in the last decade, and this is a decade which has been dominated by defenders and goalies for the most part.

    Rick Martin ... no although he's closer than most will give him credit for. Had every bit the career that Shutt and Barber did at the same position but didn't have the same quality of team around him and didn't win any championships. That said, both Shutt and Barber are highly marginal inductions.

    Chabot is marginal. Had one big season. But ranked behind Gardiner, Worters, Thompson, Connell, and Hainsworth in his era (1926-36). Seems to have been a pretty average goalie for the most part with one outlier year. But then I'm not exactly an expert on that period.

    Liut is probably the 3rd-best goalie of the 1980-85 period behind Smith and Fuhr. Still doesn't have a hope, although again he's closer than he'll get credit for. Who knows what his legacy would be if he'd actually received the opportunity to play on good teams instead of crap Hartford and St. Louis squads. But then if ifs were skiffs ...

    Makarov is a no-brainer. Frankly it's disgraceful and an insult to the global nature of the sport that he isn't in there already.

    Shero should be in. His record speaks for itself, and what he did with that Flyers team - whether you like how they played or not - was some of the finest coaching and team building the game has seen.
     
  7. MXD

    MXD I'll sue their ass off.

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    I don't know how Liut can be considered a better goalie than Beaupré, Peeters... I'd even put Pelle Lindberg ahead of him.

    And that says a lot considering Lindberg's longevity.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2007
  8. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    No to Martin, Chabot and Liut.


    Makarov adn Shero should defenitely be in.

    Makarov was the 2nd best RW of the 80's and IMO closer to Bossy (#1) than to Kurri (#2).

    Shero should also be a lock, but will likely never get in. Shero was better than recent coaching inductees: Brooks, Bob Johnson and Roger Neilson.
     
  9. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Pronger's a lock. He'll have four all-star team selections after this season. The only eligible defenceman with four not in the Hall is Carl Brewer. While Pronger's had his share of off-ice blunders, he hasn't pissed people off like Brewer has. Pronger also has a Hart. He was the best player in last year's playoffs. And he had a couple other impressive playoffs, too, especially his breakthrough in 1996.

    Sergei Makarov will get in eventually, and for good reason. After Neely and Kharlamov were inducted in 2005, Makarov became my pick for the best eligible player not in the HHOF. The betting here is that Makarov and Larionov get inducted together in 2008. (And yes, Larionov is eligible this year, despite those two games in Sweden).

    If it was strictly a coaches' wing in the HHOF, Shero would be in by now. But coaches are lumped into the builders category, which significantly diminishes Shero's chances. I think he's one of the best coaches ever. But when you're talking about builders, overall contributions to the game should be accounted, and Fred Shero played a big part in the reputation that hockey earned in the 1970s. I know there are a lot of dinks in the builders wing - Harold Ballard, anyone? - but Shero's contributions as a builder should stand on their own, and nobody else should be used as a measuring stick.

    Chabot should have been in a long time ago. If he's not the best eligible goalie not in the HHOF, then he's 1A, right behind Rogie Vachon. Somehow, he finished in the 80s for the THN top 100, yet he can't get enshrined. A big negative for his cause is that he wasn't inducted by the Veteran's committee. While the Veteran's committee had their fair share of blunders, they also righted a lot of wrongs by inducting worthy candidates such as Roy and Lionel Conacher, Bert Olmstead, Fernie Flaman Woody Dumart and Bobby Bauer. But when Leo Boivin, Herbie Lewis and Clint Smith are inducted before you, it means you likely won't be enshrined by the normal committee.

    No to Liut and Martin. Liut was one of the best from a very dark time for goaltending. Had some great years. Had some forgettable years. And nothing that stands out in the playoffs.

    Martin's the only four-time all-star forward not in the HHOF. But one big difference between Martin and Neely: Martin was a post-Hull and Mahovlich LW. Not much competition for those all-star spots. Martin also didn't bring Neely's all-round game, didn't define a role like Neely did, didn't start in the league at 18 like Neely (that's why Neely's career point-per-game level is low), and didn't dominate the playoffs like Neely. It's too bad that he suffered the severe knee injury, because he was still an effective scorer. But there just isn't enough there for him to get in pre-injury, when all aspects of the game are considered.
     
  10. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Don Beaupre? Beaupre was in the AHL almost annually during the 1980s. His prime years were actually 1989-94 with Washington. Peeters was probably the #4 goalie, although he went downhill somewhat after a strong stretch from 79-83. Lindbergh only had one really great year ... he'd spent time in the minors the previous season.

    Liut had more wins and more shutouts than any other goalie during the 1980s. He won a Pearson, would've won the Vezina in 1981 but it wasn't changed to a 'best goalie' award until the following year, and was a Vezina finalist on multiple other occasions. Starter in the 1981 Canada Cup. In a time when most teams were splitting goaltending duties 50/50, he was really the only true workhorse starting 60 games year in, year out.

    His stretch from 1979-88 was elite, albeit in a time where it didn't take a lot to be an elite goalie. But the teams he played for stunk - the Blues in a time where they almost moved to Saskatoon, and the perennially awful Whalers. Even at that he was an outstanding playoff performer - look at his playoff stats from 1982-87. He probably would have been a guy who would have been a star if he'd received the opportunity to play for a good team. But we'll never know.
     

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