Dion Phaneuf named Prospects Hockey Magazine CHL player of the year again

[ZombieMatt]

I don't think you need to reiterate that you arn't putting down Phaneuf. I'm sure 99% of the people are sure that Crosby is better than Phaneuf, including all Flame fan posters on this thread.

Just want to be clear, people seem to enjoy misinterpreting what is said sometimes. It seemed some were indicating they felt otherwise.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

First of all, in a ranking of all drafted prospects who are yet to play an NHL game, I have Dion Phaneuf ranked number two. Just to set some sort of background of my own approach.

So this is no disrespect to Dion Phaneuf, who is an absolutely incredible hockey prospect. But he is not in the same category of Sidney Crosby at this stage. I'm sorry, but I have to seriously call into question anybody who says they would rather have Phaneuf. I'm not certain what justification there is, if it is preferably viewing FLames prospects, WHL loving, Q bashing, Crosby bashing, or maybe just misunderstanding....but as outstanding as Phaneuf is, he simply does not have the same potential to evolve the game the way Sidney Crosby does.

I think anybody who fantasizes that a single NHL GM would rather have Dion Phaneuf over Sidney Crosby is delusional. There is a gap in their potential. Phaneuf is a great prospect, Crosby, at this point, is a generational talent.

You cannot compare how they are playing this season because of the two year age difference. Not that it really matters, but even at this point, I suspect that a majority would agree 17 year old Crosby was MORE dominant (both were dominant respectively) than 19 year old Phaneuf.

But compare the two players at 17 if you want to make a fair comparison. Or 16. Was Phaneuf the WHL player of the year when he was 17? Was he a strong candidate for CHL player of the year? Did he LEAD his team to a division, possibly league, title?

I'm not trying to put DOWN Dion Phaneuf. I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for what he does. He's incredible. Like I said in my comments in the Ovechkin/Crosby/who has more Gretzky like tendancies threat, just because somebody compares to another differently does not mean they are bad.

Dion Phaneuf is incredible. Sidney Crosby is more incredible.

I agree. In terms of potential Crosby has something more to offer. I'd pick him before Phaneuf. I still wanted to address your comment about calling into question anybody who might rank Phaneuf over Syd.

It is my opinion that defensemen are definitly at the lower end of popularity in this league and have been for a long time. As well, I think it's impossible to ignore the fact stardom is mostly achieved through offense.

Generally, the four historical legends that most (but by no mean all) fans agree with are the three forwards Gretz, Mario and Gordie. All three were statistically impressive (even though it can be argued that in Howe's case that was due to longevity, it still kicks all kinds of ass). The other is Orr the defensemen. Who actually accomplished a jaw-dropping feat by (predictably, if you've followed my argument so far) leading the league in points

Recently, there's been also a shift in focus towards goaltending as well. I have my idea as to how it happened but I won't get into that. But anyways, goalies seem to also have the favor of fans as well as organizations right now.

In the last 20+ years, this league has drafted four defensemen first overall, and it all happened in a small stretch of 5 or 6 years I think.

This is also a league that has all kind of awards for forwards (I'm surprised there isn't a sexy forward award yet) but very limited in D hardware. The awards are either implicit or explicit.

The whole way this game is set up is fairly subjective. As such, most ways to settle arguments (and if there was EVER any argument over this, message boards such as this one undeniably prove it) consist in pointing at statistics.

Hence, to use something that came up on this thread, most often, things such stars of the nights go to forwards and goalies.

IMO, a great part of what makes a player good or not is in the details and fairly subjective. It's in the intangibles. I think Phaneuf displays a great (and improving) skillset but he's also about a crapload of intangibles.

I wouldn't pick him before Crosby but he is winning me more every day and I could really see him be a franchise player one day. I think there is *potential* in him to be a dominating player with versatile gamebreaking skills.

I'd be curious to know where the magazine is located. I suspect maybe they are on the western coast and saw more of Phaneuf and maybe go a little overexcited. But I think maybe, just maybe, they had a bit of a bias for defense, physical play and hard work. Or maybe they think it is so rare to find a defenseman at that age you are really sold on (something with which I agree) In which case it's their call.

I dunno, I just think in general, defensemen get the short end of the stick, particularly guys like Phaneuf. I used to have doubts but I'm much more comfortable with the improvements in carrying the puck. I'm sold on the way he handles himself. I am also impressed by his composure compared to earlier years.

Defensemen are pretty difficult to get a good read on. But what exactly IS Phaneuf's potential? Myself, I'm starting to think potential is actually downright scary.

I think he is safer prospect than Crosby. That is highly debatable but it might have played in their rankings somewhat.

I'd venture to say Phaneuf has improved more this year than Crosby. Again, an opinion I would agree is debatable.

In short, while I disagree with the ranking of Phaneuf over Crosby, let's take a minute here. Does it actually sound THAT crazy because it is crazy, or because the whole nature of observing this game is mostly based on offensive output? I honestly think some of the reactions here are (partly, of course) due to the latter.

Almost everything in this league is based on who is going to rack up the numbers. With a slight shift toward goaltending in the last decade. Phaneuf offers a lot of everything, IMO. And has the potential to become a player who will win games single-handedly just as many forwards could by scoring points.

 

[gb701]

Vlad - I agree. You just say it better than I can.

 

[FearTheFlyers]

I would dearly love to meet these people and have them tell me to my face Sidney Crosby is not the best player in the CHL.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

I would dearly love to meet these people and have them tell me to my face Sidney Crosby is not the best player in the CHL.

Oh, then what would happen?

 

[chsb]

What is being missed in all of this meaningless babble about stats and game stars and impact on their teams is the question of where they rank, right now, as prospects.

All due respect to dominating as a scorer in the Q this year, I pick Phaneuf. Not because I think his performance this year is better than Crosby. But because I am actually pretty much convinced that his performance 5 years from now will be better than Crosby. I suspect that, or something like it, is partly what the panel the magazine used as their criteria for voting or whatever they did that resulted in the magazine reporting a "clear" decision.

Sue me, or flame me, but I just see more potential in Phaneuf long term than I do in Crosby. I think there is considerably more likelihood of Crosby failing to meet expectations down the road than Dion.

I also happen to think that through the season, and particularly at the WJC, one of these two looked like a man playing among boys - and it wasn't Crosby.

But, since this is all just opinion and prediction anyway, who really cares? We will find out who is right sometime in the future.

I agree that Phaneuf looked like a man playing among boys at the WJC, but Bergeron was looking just the same way and was just as effective. So I would not put too much stock on that.
Also Crosby is actually better than he was at the WJC because he learns at a faster pace than anybody I have seen in 40 years of watching hockey.
For those who think that Dion will be better than Crosby 5 years from now, I am sorry to tell you that Sidney has not shown yet what he will be down the stretch: he is no doubt the best player to come out of the junior ranks in the last 15 years.
Wayne did admit it much quicker than any Westerner will swallow it.
One also should remember that you are trying to compare a 17 YO to a 19 YO.
The simple fact that Crosby comes 2nd at 17 on that list clearly shows how good he really is.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

For those who think that Dion will be better than Crosby 5 years from now, I am sorry to tell you that Sidney has not shown yet what he will be down the stretch: he is no doubt the best player to come out of the junior ranks in the last 15 years.

I disagree. I don't even consider him the best or even 2nd best center in that time frame.

 

[Habfansincebirth]

I disagree. I don't even consider him the best or even 2nd best center in that time frame.

Who are your 1 and 2? Lindros and Forsberg?

 

[Nielson81]

I hadn't checked the thread since it started...but as I guessed...Crosby fans at their best.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Who are your 1 and 2? Lindros and Forsberg?

Lindros and Lecavalier. I unfortunately couldn't follow Forsberg much as a prospect.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I think you COULD make a case for Lindros I suppose, the hype was definitely there...and the dominance in junior hockey was also there...and the impressive showing in the Canada Cup before entering the NHL was certainly eye-opening. But Lecavalier? No. They both played their junior hockey in the same city, but Crosby has totally outproduced, outplayed and outperformed Lecavalier in every way.

I love Vinny but the only thing he has on Sidney is the prototype every team looks for in a center prospect: The combination of size and ability.

The simple fact remains: Like Gretzky, if Sidney was 6-2, 200 pounds he'd be the consensus greatest prospect in the history of the game.

And, if Sidney was as big as Phaneuf (again, a player I love), with everything else being equal, even the people at Prospects Hockey Mag would probably take him over Dion.

That's the only logical (flawed, but logical) explanation.

 

[Habfansincebirth]

Lindros and Lecavalier. I unfortunately couldn't follow Forsberg much as a prospect.

Lindros I can see, he was an unparalleled combination of size, aggression, speed, power and skill, but Vinny? As a prospect, he was a sure-fire blue chipper... he had all the tools (size/speed/skill) to be great NHLer, but I never saw the same level of pure talent that I see in Crosby. Crosby uses all his ability to create offense. I think that the type of talent he displays will only yield more at the nhl level because he will be playing with players who posess the speed, skill and timing to react and capitalize on what Crosby creates.

At the WJC, Crosby came out with the puck just about every time he went into the corner, made countless dangerous passes that Perry and Bergeron missed or were not expecting. If he ends up playing with front line NHL talent like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Nash, Ruutu, St.Louis etc... watch out.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Lindros I can see, he was an unparalleled combination of size, aggression, speed, power and skill, but Vinny? As a prospect, he was a sure-fire blue chipper... he had all the tools (size/speed/skill) to be great NHLer, but I never saw the same level of pure talent that I see in Crosby. Crosby uses all his ability to create offense. I think that the type of talent he displays will only yield more at the nhl level because he will be playing with players who posess the speed, skill and timing to react and capitalize on what Crosby creates.

At the WJC, Crosby came out with the puck just about every time he went into the corner, made countless dangerous passes that Perry and Bergeron missed or were not expecting. If he ends up playing with front line NHL talent like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Nash, Ruutu, St.Louis etc... watch out.

Yeah, it's a matter of opinion, I guess. But Lecavalier's combination of pure skills, fluidity, quickness and size was very promising, IMO. Too bad that he doesn't always use that playmaking he has. As a project superstar I thought he was extremely promising. There's a lot of explosiveness there but he's not been able to utilize this fully.

I think he had everything to become the best forward in the NHL.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I think you COULD make a case for Lindros I suppose, the hype was definitely there...and the dominance in junior hockey was also there...and the impressive showing in the Canada Cup before entering the NHL was certainly eye-opening. But Lecavalier? No. They both played their junior hockey in the same city, but Crosby has totally outproduced, outplayed and outperformed Lecavalier in every way.

That in and of itself doesn't mean much to me, except that Sydney is a much better CHL player.

There are a lot of former CHLers who totally outproduced, outplayed and outperformed current NHLers and who eventually ended up flipping burgers, selling insurances or working in crappy consulting firms.

As for Lindros, I'm surprised at your reticence. He was bar none the best prospect in a long time and I haven't seen a prospect of that calibre since. But that's also a matter of opinion.

No matter what happens next, I strongly suspect the gap between Crosby and Lecavalier is going to close considerably once he is in the NHL. Hopefully, Crosby can live up to his potential. Lecavalier hasn't, IMO (but there's still hope I guess)

 

[chsb]

Lindros and Lecavalier. I unfortunately couldn't follow Forsberg much as a prospect.

I don't know how you can compare Lindros or LeCavalier to Crosby as prospects in Junior.
None of the first two had displayed half of what Crosby showed at 16-17 as a Junior.
The majority of fans in Rimouski admit that Crosby is way ahead of LeCavalier as a hockey talent.
Crosby's lack of height or size is offset by his feet stability and his skills to get the puck from the corners and along the boards. His stickhandling ability is next to none, his vision of the game is the best I have seen in years and his skating acceleration is very deceiving.
I consider Bergeron at 19 just as good as LeCavalier or Lindros at 19.
Crosby is in a class of his own, one which we did not see in the CHL in the last 15 years.

 

[markov`]

Lecavalier a better LHJMQ player than Crosby? You gotta be kidding me.

In his first year, he scored 102 points in 64 games. Those are some great number but not Crosby-like, who scored 32 more points in 5 less games. And you have to remember that the first Lecavalier's year, he wasn't even Rimouski top scorer, the league was way more offensive than it was today. Even Lecavalier's second year is worst than Crosby's first year, by a significant margin. Lecavalier was tied with Brad Richards in points that year. So clearly, Lecavalier never, ever dominated the league like Crosby had. Not even near. I agree with you that Lindros was better than Crosby but outside of Big E, Sidney Crosby is the best junior player since Mario Lemieux in my honest opinion.

I agree that in the NHL Sidney Crosby won't be a lot better than Lecavalier, but the guy was saying that Crosby is the most dominant junior player in 15 years. That's a true statement because Lindros only played one full season in the OHL, and Crosby's number at the same age are very close to Lindros.

Just for fun, here is a little comparision:

In 1990-1991, Lindros had 71 goals, 78 assists for 149 points in 57 games. The closest scorer in his team was Rob Pearson, with 118 points in 51 games.

This season, Crosby has 57 goals, 84 assists for 141 points in 56 games. That's very close to Lindros production. His team isn't dominant like Lindros team was; the closest scorer in his team is Pouliot, with 96 points in 64 games.

 

[missK]

http://www.whl.ca/headlines/?id=2790

Way to go Dion

Crosby 2nd, Carter 3rd, Richards 4th, Glass 5th.

No offense to the original poster or Phanuef but we are talking about a consensus of only 15 inidividuals. Open it up to more media responses and I'm sure the numbers would change.

From the original article quoted above:

A panel of 15 junior hockey media from across Canada picked the top 5 players from across the CHL’s 56 teams, and the next 10 from each of the CHL’s three member leagues.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Why are you guys so obtuse? I don't care about who is the best CHL player. I care about who was the better NHL prospect.

Crosby can break every Q record he wants, I still think Lecavalier was a better NHL prospect.

 

[markov`]

Why are you guys so obtuse? I don't care about who is the best CHL player. I care about who was the better NHL prospect.

Crosby can break every Q record he wants, I still think Lecavalier was a better NHL prospect.

We'll see how each develops, but Crosby will have a impact now, unlike Lecavalier who took 2-3 years to have any impact.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

We'll see how each develops, but Crosby will have a impact now, unlike Lecavalier who took 2-3 years to have any impact.

Time will tell.

Very, very few players have had more of an impact recently.

Vinny currently has 327 points in his career already. Nobody has more points from his draft class or later. From 1997, only Joe Thornton, Samsonov, Hossa have more points (Marleau has 327, same as Vinny).

From 1996 nobody comes close. From 1995 only Langkow, Doan, Dvorak, Petr Sykoran, Sami Kapanen and of course Iginla.

Which means roughly that Vinny, a 1998 drafted player, is the #1 point leader from his draft class on, and still top 10 if we include players from as far as three drafts earlier than him. I'd say that's not bad. And he's got a Stanley Cup to boot.

I'd say that's pretty good. He could have been better. Much better. But what kind of impact were you expecting? Most of the players ahead of Vinny are wingers, a position that is much easier to adapt to at the NHL level.

Good luck to Crosby but you don't get Lecavalier's career numbers without producing early. His 2nd and 3rd season were pretty damn good on a crappy team. What is kind of disappointing is that his career has been pretty up and down and he could have done so much more, IMO.

Not that I think an early start is that important anyway. I think Vinny can be better than he is right now. I have no doubt that Crosby's offense could be much better but it is still an hypothetical to me at this point. I hope he succeeds, though

 

[Nielson81]

We'll see how each develops, but Crosby will have a impact now, unlike Lecavalier who took 2-3 years to have any impact.

Will Crosby really make an IMMEDIATE impact on the ice in the NHL?? I mean I know he will be great for tickets at stuff....but don't see him having a HUGE impact in his first couple seasons...won't be in the top scorers etc.

 

[FearTheFlyers]

Why are you guys so obtuse? I don't care about who is the best CHL player. I care about who was the better NHL prospect.

Crosby can break every Q record he wants, I still think Lecavalier was a better NHL prospect.

But Vlad, the article is clearly about who the better CHL player is.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

But Vlad, the article is clearly about who the better CHL player is.

In 5 pages, this thread has taken all kind of directions, though.

 

[FearTheFlyers]

In 5 pages, this thread has taken all kind of directions, though.

Well, I commend you for reading it.

 

[gb701]

You know, what I find most interesting is how close minded that people are about anyone other than the designated "phenom". A magazine had the gall to pick someone other than the politically correct choice for player of the year - must be from the west? or stupid? or focussed on size? or biased against the Q?

Whatever.

From my humble position, in the west, paying attention to the D side of the game, there is no question here.