Did Tim Murray destroy our rebuild?

[Jame]

You were discussing things evenhandedly before you went back to agenda mode with this.

There was nothing agenda based or personal...

Still waiting for you to admit the play of ROR hasn't been what we needed, not even close for much of the year. Or that Sam has been very disappointing. No? Didn't think so. Instead it's a deep dive to henpeck the GM for what's ultimately your anger over Carrier leaving, Jack getting a deal and a letter and ROR not getting the "C".

Still waiting for you to move on from your straw man.

I’ve criticized ROR heavily, especially at the beginning of the season when his game was pathetic

I’ve criticized Reinhart to the point of moving on from him as a center and entertaining trade ideas (something I’ve never done before).

My issues with Botts have nothing to do with Carrier or ROR, that’s just your default position for not dealing with any of the realities I raise.

A big part of the issue with the bottom 6 not working was Sam's failure as 3rd line center. Nothing but a ton of excuses and cute pet stories. Like Sam makes elite players better but gets dragged down by lesser players. Another way to put it is he can't produce without playing with top talent, like Girgs. The bottom 6 also suffered due to poor play from Larsson/Girgs and Josefson getting injured. You could throw Erod's injury in as well.

It’s a true statement.

It’s not the same as Girgs who can finish for talent, where as Reinhart makes plays for talent. One reaps the benefits of talent, the other enhances it.

When this team was healthy, about a week or so before the season, I saw very little complaining about our potential center spine of Jack/ROR/Sam/Josefson. In fact I saw a ton of excitement. When the season started Jack and Josefson were the only ones pulling their weight in their roles. Then the excuse making began in earnest for ROR and Sam with blame getting thrown everywhere. It was everyone's fault but theirs.

So many talented players failing to play to their ability, maybe... there’s a root cause? Or maybe you’d prefer to simplistically chalk it all up to individual regression across the board... that’s easier, let’s go with that.

Look to the struggles of ROR, Okposo, Sam, Girgs and Larsson combined with our decimated defense and coaching mistakes with the PP as the reasons for our bad start. That's if we're being rational and not pushing an agenda or not trying real hard to defend favorites. The placeholders weren't helping but they were well down the list of problems and there is the rub. To acknowledge the bigger issues is to go against some of your favorites. Can't have that.

Yea... that’s the rational view... everyone regressed and it’s all individually attributable

 

[Chainshot]

He got a very good defensive 4th line center in Josefson. In theory we are supposed to have a strong center group. Adding Josefson should have made it even stronger. Instead 4 of the centers were underwhelming as centers or overall to start the season (ROR, Sam, Larsson and Girgs) and Josefson got hurt. Before the season another option for center and the bottom 6 was injured(Erod) Is it Botts fault all these things happened? I find it hard to blame him.

I get the overall frustration with everything Sabres. But listing every possible guy he could have acquired doesn't seem like a fair critique. Would Wingels even come here on a PTO? We are still one of the worst teams in the NHL. I find it hard to believe he comes here over a chance in Chicago.

As for what Botts is doing, it looks like he is working on a transition from what Murray left him (too many not too smart/quick players) to the roster he'd like to see. All while building up the proper development environment. That's not going to happen overnight and may take more work than I thought.

If Wingels gets a one-year deal rather than a PTO, yeah, I would imagine he comes in and brings his level of jam and veteran experience. So too Kruger. They had injuries on the blueline that were crippling, but being out Rodrigues and Josefson up front and yet being incompetent most nights is the issue. They didn't have enough NHL bodies here.

 

[Buff15Sabres]

Murray was handed a great situation that many GM's would be envious of:
1) Pretty good pipeline of young talent
2) Lots of extra draft picks
3) Good cap situation (there were a few bad contracts, but Pegula willing to spend anything more than makes up for that)
4) The OK from ownership to tank for 2 years to be guaranteed a generational talent

If this rebuild had been successful the Sabres would be legit cup contenders this year (last year of Jack/Sam ELC). Instead Murray found himself fired and the Sabres are a bottom feeder.

We don't need to over-analyze every single move that Murray made. If someone asks did Murray destroy the rebuild the only answer is a resounding Yes.

 

[nickdawg95]

Still wish murray was at the helm, the dude would of fixed our defence and hired a better coach this summer at whatever cost,
Botts seems like a nervous man, your team obviously has issue and he's not making any moves/ call up like what are you afraid of ? guys a wimp, murray would of whipped this team into shaped by now AND THAT'S NOT DEBATABLE

 

[joshjull]

If Wingels gets a one-year deal rather than a PTO, yeah, I would imagine he comes in and brings his level of jam and veteran experience. So too Kruger. They had injuries on the blueline that were crippling, but being out Rodrigues and Josefson up front and yet being incompetent most nights is the issue. They didn't have enough NHL bodies here.

I had to double check because it didn't sound right. Wingels signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks on the opening day of free agency, July 1st. He wasn't on a PTO. So not an option when Erod and later Josefson went out.
As for Kruger, his status was done before the expansion draft. His trade was to address expansion issues for Hawks iirc. Long before our injuries hit.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

The point stands that the team entered the season short multiple NHL players, and didn't really have a plan to replace roster spots that were already in-flux unless talent forced their hand.

That put the team in a situation where they would be dependent on talent and coaching, and we knew this group wasn't so talented to overcome painful mediocrity behind the bench.

 

[Yatzhee]

Maybe Pegula found out Tim Murray was a double agent actually working for Ottawa.
After all, a 21st OA for Lehner?
Or how about that horrible multiplayer minor league swap......

This deserves a special prosecutor

 

[Jame]

After Dorian finishes destroying the Sens... what’s the over under on Tim Murray being the next GM ?

 

[Chainshot]

I had to double check because it didn't sound right. Wingels signed a 1 year deal with the Hawks on the opening day of free agency, July 1st. He wasn't on a PTO. So not an option when Erod and later Josefson went out.
As for Kruger, his status was done before the expansion draft. His trade was to address expansion issues for Hawks iirc. Long before our injuries hit.

My mistake. It was Daniel Winnik who had the PTO that I was thinking of and I superimposed Wingels.

 

[OneBuffalo]

His acceleration of the rebuild did us in. If he were patient, we would have a fully loaded team. After they drafted Eichel, they could have kept their assets from the Lehner and ROR trades and used them in the draft. They would have had more prospects, but a worse team. They would have competed with Toronto for #1 overall. We could have had Eichel and Mathews/Laine on this roster. There was no need to spend money on players like Okposo, ROR, Bogosian, etc. the team wasn’t ready to compete. They shouldn’t have acted like they were.

 

[dotcommunism]

Assuming that "patient" means prospect hoarding and not making any moves to trade futures for veterans, this team wouldn't be any closer to competing now.

 

[Icicle]

I give Botts benefit of the doubt on the call ups this year. He wanted to see what he had. The teams vets were starting awful anyway, and Okposo still has scrambled brains. Fasching started awful in the AHL until a few weeks in. Erod was hurt. Josefson was hurt. The entire blue line was hurt and we dug into the newly acquired 9th, 10th, and 11th string just to ice a roster. Nolan sucks, but we got interviews trashing the locker room and rightly so and that alone has been worth it.

 

[Sabre Dance]

This discussion went very different a year ago.

It is what it is. Murray failed. Why did he fail? We could point the blame in many directions. Pegula had a big role as well.

That said, we still accomplished the goal of drafting Eichel. Now we must build a team around him. It's not 2013. We're way ahead of where we were in 2013, but there needs to be a rebuild. A few right decisions and some luck and we are a good team.

 

[joshjull]

My mistake. It was Daniel Winnik who had the PTO that I was thinking of and I superimposed Wingels.

The Hawks did have a bunch of guys on PTOs though ; Drew Miller, Franson, Mark Stuart and John Mitchell

 

[Jame]

This discussion went very different a year ago.

It is what it is. Murray failed. Why did he fail? We could point the blame in many directions. Pegula had a big role as well.

That said, we still accomplished the goal of drafting Eichel. Now we must build a team around him. It's not 2013. We're way ahead of where we were in 2013, but there needs to be a rebuild. A few right decisions and some luck and we are a good team.

There's the catch...

How much of Murray's overall failure can be correlated to the goal the franchise set?
(I dont mean Eichel, I mean tanking)

 

[CatsforReinhart]

This discussion went very different a year ago.

It is what it is. Murray failed. Why did he fail? We could point the blame in many directions. Pegula had a big role as well.

That said, we still accomplished the goal of drafting Eichel. Now we must build a team around him. It's not 2013. We're way ahead of where we were in 2013, but there needs to be a rebuild. A few right decisions and some luck and we are a good team.

We are way ahead of 2013 but in the same place last/2nd last. Time to trade everyone but Eichel and Ristolainen, build a defence and give young goalies a shot.

 

[Djp]

I don’t think the trades have hurt as much as the UFA signings.

Okposo and Moulson. Not good.

I think if we had our current team, minus those two as well as the cap space, things wouldn’t look so awful.

It seems since Pegula took over that the philosophy is if you have money to spend you better spend it.

Okposo is a debate if he should have signed him or not. He was doing fine last year till that dillness happened---unsure how much its still affecting him now.

hindsight is 20/20...

Buffalo drafted Reinhart in the 1st and was taking for 2015. They also did not have Kane nor ROR and there was no certainty they would get them nor how the rebuild was going to go.

The issue was making it to the cap floor.

you wargame where you end up and the risk reward.

If Buffalo was certain they would end up 1 or 2 then they probably sign Ennis and Moulson for 4 year which would carry them to when their ELCs would end. If Buffalo missed out on 1 and 2 then they probably would have kep whomever was their top pick in the CHL for a year and have rei nhart play Rochester for a year having his contract slide--then those 2 players ELCs would have ended in 2019 which is when Ennis and Moulsons contracts end. With both contracts, I would have liked for them to be buy out friendly in 2018.

 

[Djp]

His acceleration of the rebuild did us in. If he were patient, we would have a fully loaded team. After they drafted Eichel, they could have kept their assets from the Lehner and ROR trades and used them in the draft. They would have had more prospects, but a worse team. They would have competed with Toronto for #1 overall. We could have had Eichel and Mathews/Laine on this roster. There was no need to spend money on players like Okposo, ROR, Bogosian, etc. the team wasn’t ready to compete. They shouldn’t have acted like they were.

Buffalo needed a veteran center to place #1C as Eichel and Reinhart developed.

Buffalo wanted to bring in a #1 goalie. These are hard to get and its unrealistic to think you can draft one and they will be #1 in 2 years. They traded for Lehner because he was young and fast forward on goalie they would have drafted at 1st in 2015 with the pick they traded.

The trade for Kane---helped the tank---Myers=Bogodian. Kane for Stafford (UFA), Lemieux (who they drafted with the idea of getting Kane), Armia, and a 1st.
in a trade Kane likely gets back pretty close to what was given up.

The groundwork of the Scandella trade had been done by Murray over the year prior--the deal likely would have been made by Murray.

In this alternate reality what forwards would buffalo have now?

No Kane, ROR, KO
have: Compher, Armia, Lemieux, Grigs, at least another high level forward with picks traded.

There would be no forward vet leadership. development would actually be hurt with many of the forwards --while there is competition, you can have too much where its a log jam so if someone does well a few then has a bad game he gets yanked for another one which just hurts them all in development

 

[Aladyyn]

Which group would you rather have:

Ristolainen/Reinhart/Eichel

Barkov/Reinhart/Werenski

Should we have pulled the trigger a year earlier?

 

[1972]

Which group would you rather have:

Ristolainen/Reinhart/Eichel

Barkov/Reinhart/Werenski

Should we have pulled the trigger a year earlier?

The first one but pick a better player in 2014

 

[Chainshot]

The first one but pick a better player in 2014

Pastrnak was hard to judge.

 

[Buffaloed]

We lived in fear of losing our teams for years then made a deal with the devil to keep them. In exchange we got the worst owner in professional sports. Terry Pegula will rewrite the record books for losing.

I haven't seen anything to convince me to change my opinion.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Pastrnak was hard to judge.

The whole top of that draft, tbh. Each player in the clear consensus top 3 has been passed by ones who went considerably later. Bennett will probably never play higher in anyone's line-up than the 3rd line. So at least we picked the right Sam.

 

[lauraP]

Still wish murray was at the helm, the dude would of fixed our defence and hired a better coach this summer at whatever cost,
Botts seems like a nervous man, your team obviously has issue and he's not making any moves/ call up like what are you afraid of ? guys a wimp, murray would of whipped this team into shaped by now AND THAT'S NOT DEBATABLE

This true af

 

[OkimLom]

Murray destroyed Darcy’s rebuild.

Botterill destroyed Murray’s rebuild.

Pegula’s incompetence is what is destroying the Buffalo Sabres rebuild.