saskganesh
Registered User
until escalating salaries league-wide increased costs, they drew enough support then to be a viable business. which is the NHL bottom line.
Did Bettman try and save the Jets?
- Thread starter timmy12
- Start date
until escalating salaries league-wide increased costs, they drew enough support then to be a viable business. which is the NHL bottom line.
Only with some former Jets fans (excluding the intellectually honest ones) would an attendance figure at or near the bottom of the league constitute "lots of support" as the other poster stated (unless, of course, the team experiencing said support is located in the south, in which case said team is in a non-hoeckey-market).
Jeffler
See You At Game 3
You still haven't answered whether or not the Oilers should be kicked out.
You didn't ask that question of me. You were asking it of EbenCoye, who made the statement about "deserving". I do not subscribe to that view. I was merely responding to your side statement about the Jets having a "lot of support".
Winnipeg was a bit weird in terms of fan support. The arena only sat 15,000 and change, some days Edmonton with Gretzky or Calgary would come in and they would sell out easily, and if they could seat 20,000 for that game, it would still sell out. Other times they only had around 11-12,000, but I don't think it ever fell below that. Playoff time the fans went absolutely ballistic like in few other cities with the white out and all.
The question is...are the Jets better off now than they were 11 years ago? Most definitely not, Phoenix has been an absolute disaster. They are so distant and remote from the population there it's not even funny. Never has an NHL franchise been so obscure than the Phoenix Coyotes. NHL siberia.
The question is...are the Jets better off now than they were 11 years ago? Most definitely not, Phoenix has been an absolute disaster. They are so distant and remote from the population there it's not even funny. Never has an NHL franchise been so obscure than the Phoenix Coyotes. NHL siberia.
This is the truest statement I've read on the issue. They were a money-losing business from about 1989-1990 on out*, by most accounts, which is when salaries really started skyrocketing.
* I'd be remiss in not noting that Shenkarow made noise about needing a rink as early as 1983, but he was just posturing to renegotiate his lease, which he did in 1985, IIRC. He got a share of advertising revenue in the building, which seemed to tide him over for a few years until the rise in salaries/fall of the loonie prompted him to bail out.
saskganesh
Registered User
well, I'd say 13k a game would be "lots of support." that's 80% capacity. I guess you disagree. I will agree that it turned out to be not "enough". Phoenix now draws about 2K a game more, so from a "bums in seats" perspective, the dogs are a big upgrade.
the reason they didn't sell out because of bad site lines......in the upper deck, you could not see the ice.....
the partitions of roof obstructed the view......
razorsedge
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2006
- 5,197
- 4,778
Winnipeg Jets average attendance:
1989-90 - 13,106 (league average:14,975)
1990-91 - 12,931 (14,695)
1991-92 - 12,931 (14,510)
1992-93 - 13,550 (14,045) (6 teams with lower average attendance)
1993-94 - 13,297 (14,748)
1994-95 - 13,013 (14,797)
1995-96 - 11,316 (15,986) (It was known before the season that the Jets were leaving)
Phoenix Coyotes average attendance:
1996-97 - 15,604 (league average: 16,548)
1997-98 - 15,405 (16,195)
1998-99 - 15,548 (16,311)
1999-00 - 14,991 (16,359)
2000-01 - 14,224 (16,549)
2001-02 - 13,161 (16,486) (2nd worst)
2002-03 - 13,229 (16,591) (league worst)
2003-04 - 15,469 (16,534) (probably free ticket giveaways)
2005-06 - 15,582 (16,955)
http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/NHL-attendance.htm
The Jets were never the league worst in attendance, though 2 of the teams that were lower have relocated. 2 of the years, the Jets had a larger average attendance than the Coyotes, and thats in the day before Corporate support was the main source of attandance (company giveaways, private seats). If you ever been in the old Winnipeg Arena, it was amazing that even 10,000 people showed up. It was terrible for sight lines.
The Jets left because of many factors related to that time, such as a crappy cnd dollar, fast rising salaries, bad lease deal with the Arena (WEC ran the Winnipeg Arena and completely ***** the team of any kind of revenue from concessions, advertising, rent etc), and of course, there was no new arena gonna be built.
The point of this post reply is to point out that using attendance figures can't be used to compare a teams success. Todays attendance of some teams should prove that. A team can succeed in Winnipeg in today's world because there is so many different revenue sources on top of gate revenue that small market teams managed properly will work.
There is alot more working against a return of NHL to winnipeg than most markets on the lookout. Yes, the MTS centre is a little small, so profit margin will be smaller, which does scare off potential owners, but it can still support an NHL team.
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
- 14,870
- 6
Free ticket giveaways - ah, no, but thanks for playing and have some lovely parting gifts.
The jump in attendance was because in December 2004 the Coyotes moved from the horrible America West Arena (from one end of the upper deck, you literally could only see half the ice) into the new Glendale Arena (now the Jobbing.Com Arena, ugh).
It's always something with Winnipeg apologists. Always something. It's the hockey equivalent of "the dog ate my homework".
I was going to write some really sarcastic comments, but it's just sad to see someone compare the best two attendance years in one city to the worst two years in another city and suggest there is a relevant comparison. And the "probably free ticket giveaways" comment? You should be ashamed of yourself.
13k in Winnipeg is "lots of support". 13k in Atlanta, Florida, Nashville or Carolina (see a pattern here) is "a disgrace".
Trizent
Registered User
You know you just proved that the move to Phoenix was the right move. Despite playing all but the last season and a half in what is considered one of the worst arenas for hockey they out drew what the Jets drew in Winnipeg except for the two years leading up to the new arena in which people were probably waiting for that to open. Plus on top of that corporate support is higher than it would be in Winnipeg.
razorsedge
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2006
- 5,197
- 4,778
I proved that the Jets move to Pheonix has not been a success, if anything it's close to the same support wise (which in my opinion is a disaster). Average attendance was during the time the entire Leagues average attendance was only in the 14,000 range anyways. So Winnipeg hasn't been that far off the curve. With a nicer Arena the average attendance would have been above the League average.
Than you look at the Coyotes average attendance, and it still stays below the League average, and only goes up when the league average went up, even further off the curve, until the new fancy arena opened, even than stays below the league.
Funny how it's ok for people to use a bad arena as the reason for lousy attendance for the Coyotes, but it's not ok for Winnipeg to have low attendance in the Old winnipeg Arena.
I'm not going to argue Phoenix's corporate support, but don't day Winnipeg doesn't have the corporate support. Thats not the problem, and has been confirmed the support is there by mulitple Winnipeg bigshots such as the Mayor and Mark Chipman.
Should I be ashamed of myself for the "free ticket giveaway" comment? No. The Coyotes should be ashamed for the upcoming retireing of Dale Hawerchuks number. He never played a game in Phoenix or under the Coyotes name/jersey, why retire it. Thats absolutely disgraceful to Winnipeg, the people of Winnipeg, the NHL and the Jets era of the franchise.
If you cannot see how contradictory your positions are (15k in Phoenix is a "disaster", but 13k in Winnipeg proves the viability of a franchise there) and how truly sad it is to throw up an irrelevant point such as Dale Hawerchuk's number retirement in the discussion (who would get no such honour if Phoenix doesn't do it), I don't think anyone can help you, to be honest.
No one is really referencing Phoenix's arena as an "excuse" for bad attendance per se, but rather is simply pointing out that both areas had their arena issues. The real point, since you intentionally avoid it, is that Phoenix's "bad attendance" years are about the same as Winnipeg's greatest years.
razorsedge
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2006
- 5,197
- 4,778
Take each city's average attendance and compare it to the leagues average that same year. What i'm saying is, that the average attendance in winnipeg would have increased with the League average the same as phoenix's did. I'm saying is Winnipeg's average attendance (if had the arena) would have been on par with phoenix's average attendance.
Anyways, I'm not saying Winnipeg shouldn't have lost the Jets, cause at that time in the NHL world, it was enividable. Back on topic with the thread title, I don't believe Gary Bettman tried to keep the franchise in Winnipeg whats-so-ever (not that it would have mattered). I'm also saying, that since the Jets did relocated, Phoenix was the wrong spot, success on and off ice has been a joke.
I'm also gonna go on to say, if Winnipeg had team, (and larger arena), the average attendance would be easily larger than Phoenix's and maybe even the League average.
Don't fault Phoenix as a city, look to the ownership and management of the team.
If your using the attendance numbers to support your point that you can't use attendance figures to determine a teams success then why are you using them to argue that Phoenix is a disaster?
are you people serious? obviously NONE of you were ever inside of winnipeg arena. the "upper deck " was hung from the roof for goodness sakes!!! outside of the first few rows of that monstrosity you couldnt even see the closest half of the ice!!!
and the ski slope on the one end, what was that a 45 degree incline? the place was originally a 10K seat arena with 5000 seat stuffed in after the fact. glendale arena was 20 times nicer.
as for attendence numbers, yes phoenix' numbers now are slightly better than the peg's were then, but in the 80's even the great teams only sold out maybe a dozen games a year. i lived on long island in the 80's and me and my pals used to walk up to either the garden( rangers ) or colliseum( islanders during and right after the dynasty!!!!) in the mid 80's and get great seats from the ticket window, and did that often.these are different times , every nhl team in canada sells out almost every seat for every game, why would winnipeg be any different? really?
lastly. are you telling me that winnipeg wouldnt support hockey? that city BLEEDS hockey!!! dont believe me? go there and find out what a hockey city looks and feels like.then go to phoenix and tell me which one deserves hockey more.
please hockey fans stop drinking the nhl's kool aid ,it's poisoning your sense of reason.
and the ski slope on the one end, what was that a 45 degree incline? the place was originally a 10K seat arena with 5000 seat stuffed in after the fact. glendale arena was 20 times nicer.
as for attendence numbers, yes phoenix' numbers now are slightly better than the peg's were then, but in the 80's even the great teams only sold out maybe a dozen games a year. i lived on long island in the 80's and me and my pals used to walk up to either the garden( rangers ) or colliseum( islanders during and right after the dynasty!!!!) in the mid 80's and get great seats from the ticket window, and did that often.these are different times , every nhl team in canada sells out almost every seat for every game, why would winnipeg be any different? really?
lastly. are you telling me that winnipeg wouldnt support hockey? that city BLEEDS hockey!!! dont believe me? go there and find out what a hockey city looks and feels like.then go to phoenix and tell me which one deserves hockey more.
please hockey fans stop drinking the nhl's kool aid ,it's poisoning your sense of reason.
coyoteshockeyfan
Registered User
coyoteshockeyfan
Registered User
Spare us from your egotistical "we're Canadian therefore we must be better than you" drivel.
actually i'm an american who's been playing hockey since i can remember.and i appreciate hockey's past and it's heritage. and guess what ,that heritage is MOSTLY Canadian. p.s how many rinks in phoenix?
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