Devils 2017-18 team discussion (player news and notes) - season begins!

[JimEIV]

There is really no point in having this discussion if you are going to keep changing the rules and moving the goal posts on what kids “count” and what kids don’t.

A kid heading to a college where players have traditionally spent 4 years has to factor into any estimate. That's not moving any goal post that's just a fact. How do you even factor in a player that might stay in school for 3 or 4 years and how do you even know what he is as a prospect when he hasn't had a game since he was drafted?

And the Rykov KHL situation isn't the magnitude of the Walsh unknowns but there is certainly a degree of uncertainty when the KHL is an option.

Again that's not changing the rules, those are just facts and those facts should be weighed in the overall quality of a prospect. A prospect that might take 4 years to play his 1st pro game is less in my opinion than one that is going to be playing pro by 20. Doesn't mean those guys aren't good or won't make it, just means the level of uncertainty is much higher.

 

[My3Sons]

I was all about a Henrique+ for a LHD this past summer

Though, Henrique has been good so far this year

I’d probably pass on Carlson at top dollar and see if LA will trade Doughty earlier than next year’s trade deadline or just be patient and go all in for him at the next year trade deadline. If you have to hand out an anchor contract on D to get a 1D I’d prefer him over the other names bandied about. Early season surprise aside my plan for long term competition wouldn’t change to go all in on a wild card spot this year at the cost of anything long term.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

by the way, for all the talk about the Leafs, their defense really isn't that good either. Like someone said, rarely does a team have a promising young D AND a promising young forward corps. That type of "perfect storm" rarely, if ever, happens in today's NHL

 

[Blender]

Nope. I will never stop complaining about lj. Never

Complaining about Lovejoy makes sense anyways. It's not just that he isn't very good, he doesn't even fit how the team is trying to play.

 

[My3Sons]

Complaining about Lovejoy makes sense anyways. It's not just that he isn't very good, he doesn't even fit how the team is trying to play.

And it’s just good clean fun since he is a multi-millionaire who is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Ray had so many holes to fill when he took over that if you expected him to fix all of them in 2-3 years, you were probably going to be disappointed. He's clearly been focusing on forwards over defensemen, which given how barren our system was of forwards, makes sense. Now that we have multiple promising young forward prospects, we have depth enough to where we can focus on the defense. The fact is most teams have a surplus in one area and a deficinency in another. Rarely do you have a team coming up that is loaded both up front and on defense.

This seems like the absolute weirdest time to be complaining about the current blueprint when we are finally starting to have success.

Ray deserves tons of credit for how quickly he is turning this team around.

 

[My3Sons]

This seems like the absolute weirdest time to be complaining about the current blueprint when we are finally starting to have success.

Ray deserves tons of credit for how quickly he is turning this team around.

I don’t think that post was complaining about the blueprint. Not sure if you interpreted it as such or if you were speaking generally.

 

[Lindys Lazy Eye]

If we ever get Doughty I'll buy a random HFDeviler a beer and player shirt at a game.

 

[My3Sons]

If we ever get Doughty I'll buy a random HFDeviler a beer and player shirt at a game.

That’s my thought as well. Apparently Doughty has made some comments about wanting to win again when his current deal is up and I’m sure he’ll still want a big deal. Maybe LA can clear cap for him but then they are rebuilding from the ground up most likely. Devils are one of a few teams that may be able to offer him everything he wants and he certainly moves the needle. I’m not sure I push hard for a UFA until LA determines if it can re-sign him. If not and LA allows discussions with his agent and he is ok with NJ at that point I’d go all in for him. I’d still prefer to avoid an anchor contract but it may be unavoidable to land a real top pairing defender without some real luck.

 

[Tretyak 20]

I'm not sure I saw one person pencil Mueller in as LD2 definitively.

I believe I said he had the potential to become a 2nd pair D in the future. If anyone penciled him in as a current 2nd pair D it could only have been considered how crap-tastic our D was last year.

 

[BahlDeep]

Everything Shero has done is planned. I can bet my life savings he has a plan to re-tool the defense.

 

[Billdo]

Everything Shero has done is planned. I can bet my life savings he has a plan to re-tool the defense.

That’s my thinking. I think the 2018 will see a majority of defense prospects coupled with us perhaps moving some of our forward prospects for defenders on a similar progression path.

 

[Tretyak 20]

Yes. I do. The draft isn't for today. Especially when Defense is concerned, that is a 3 to 5 year proposition.

Santini was drafted 4 years ago and he's barely making a dent in the NHL today. We have no pipeline at all for Defense and it takes years for them to come up.

We have 2 forwards in the lineup that Ray has drafted, 3 if you count Zacha but I consider him from the past administration and 1 is #1 overall so even those forwards take time to arrive. The approach should be more balanced than 1 Defenseman in 11 picks in the first 3 rounds

Whether you agree with it or not, there seems to be a method to the madness. Our overall pipeline was VERY bare when Ray arrived. Forward prospects are also historically the easiest to project and get it right, and the vast majority of top-6 forwards are taken in the top 3 rounds. High-picked D are much more likely to disappoint, and quality D still come out of the later rounds. Combine all that with Ray being a shrewd trader, and it seems he was drafting to get the most useful players out of his picks, regardless of position. Which makes a certain sense.

 

[JimEIV]

I don’t think that post was complaining about the blueprint. Not sure if you interpreted it as such or if you were speaking generally.

He's talking about me I think.

Whether you agree with it or not, there seems to be a method to the madness. Our overall pipeline was VERY bare when Ray arrived. Forward prospects are also historically the easiest to project and get it right, and the vast majority of top-6 forwards are taken in the top 3 rounds. High-picked D are much more likely to disappoint, and quality D still come out of the later rounds. Combine all that with Ray being a shrewd trader, and it seems he was drafting to get the most useful players out of his picks, regardless of position. Which makes a certain sense.

The pipeline wasn't "very bare". That's another false narrative ..

Quenneville, Santini, Wood, Coleman, Pietila, Blandisi, Kinkaid, Wedgewood... Severson was just finishing his rookie season, were all here. Zacha, Speers and Blackwood were all drafted by Conte...trades of Jagr and Zidlicky under the previous administration gave Shero the ammo to get Palmieri. The Larsson trade bought us Hall at the expense of defense. Ping balls brought us Hischier, thank the hockey gods, not Shero. And of course, Henrique, Schnieder, Zajac and Greene were all here...news flash: that's is the majority of the team. All of the goaltending all of the decent defense.

Let's stop making believe that there was a revamp from ground zero. It's just not true.

The other false narrative is this great drafting. Time will tell, but right now it's inconclusive. Ray's team has two players in the line up. Bratt and Hischier. Hischier as stated above is a gift from the hockey gods...drafing #1 overall and getting a good player is no great feat. I'm thankful for ping pong balls and we should all be. Bratt is a sweet pick no doubt about that.

 

[NJDevs26]

Pietella and Wedgewood? Come on now. And most of the other guys you named are guys with back-end celing. Pretty much every system has those type of 'prospects'.

Shero also used picks to trade for Johansson and Palmieri, you always gave Lou credit for trading picks for NHL players (and a pass on the barren prospects system as a result of said trades) and they weren't just deadline rentals either.

 

[My3Sons]

He's talking about me I think.

The pipeline wasn't "very bare". That's another false narrative ..

Quenneville, Santini, Wood, Coleman, Pietila, Blandisi, Kinkaid, Wedgewood... Severson was just finishing his rookie season, were all here. Zacha, Speers and Blackwood were all drafted by Conte...trades of Jagr and Zidlicky under the previous administration gave Shero the ammo to get Palmieri. The Larsson trade bought us Hall at the expense of defense. Ping balls brought us Hischier, thank the hockey gods, not Shero. And of course, Henrique, Schnieder, Zajac and Greene were all here...news flash: that's is the majority of the team. All of the goaltending all of the decent defense.

Let's stop making believe that there was a revamp from ground zero. It's just not true.

The other false narrative is this great drafting. Time will tell, but right now it's inconclusive. Ray's team has two players in the line up. Bratt and Hischier. Hischier as stated above is a gift from the hockey gods...drafing #1 overall and getting a good player is no great feat. I'm thankful for ping pong balls and we should all be. Bratt is a sweet pick no doubt about that.

In all fairness Ray has to be credited with the trade for Hall on some level unless Edmonton called him and said “Hall for Larsson and we’ll take your stunned silence as a yes and send in the paperwork” and then hung up the phone. Shero also has to be credited for actually making the trades with whatever assets he used. No way to know what Lou might have done and as my silly example showed - trades don’t make themselves. You raise some valid points but I think you owe it to your audience to suggest alternatives to things that displease you. I imagine your point was not to suggest all the good things that have happened since Shero took over were just dumb luck.

 

[NJDevs26]

In all fairness Ray has to be credited with the trade for Hall on some level unless Edmonton called him and said “Hall for Larsson and we’ll take your stunned silence as a yes and send in the paperwork” and then hung up the phone. Shero also has to be credited for actually making the trades with whatever assets he used. No way to know what Lou might have done and as my silly example showed - trades don’t make themselves. You raise some valid points but I think you owe it to your audience to suggest alternatives to things that displease you. I imagine your point was not to suggest all the good things that have happened since Shero took over were just dumb luck.

And Hischier was not exactly a slam dunk pick even with getting lotto lucky (which they also got with Larsson btw). Shero's going to get a lot of praise, criticism or indifference depending on how his and Nolan's careers turn out.

 

[JimEIV]

Cole

And Hischier was not exactly a slam dunk pick even with getting lotto lucky (which they also got with Larsson btw). Shero's going to get a lot of praise, criticism or indifference depending on how his and Nolan's careers turn out.

Not the point. Our Orginal position was #5 if I remember correctly. The discussion of Hischier or Patrick never happens without winning the lottery. Had we lost it like Colorado we could've been picking 7th overall and waiting a year or two for our prospect to blossom.

So the fact that we actually have a legitimate top 6 center in the lineup and producing is largely a stroke of luck. Giving anyone credit for that beyond the luck of the draw is just creating a BS storyline.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Shero is going to build a cup team and he will still find away to not give him any credit.

 

[Tretyak 20]

He's talking about me I think.

The pipeline wasn't "very bare". That's another false narrative ..

Quenneville, Santini, Wood, Coleman, Pietila, Blandisi, Kinkaid, Wedgewood... Severson was just finishing his rookie season, were all here. Zacha, Speers and Blackwood were all drafted by Conte...trades of Jagr and Zidlicky under the previous administration gave Shero the ammo to get Palmieri. The Larsson trade bought us Hall at the expense of defense. Ping balls brought us Hischier, thank the hockey gods, not Shero. And of course, Henrique, Schnieder, Zajac and Greene were all here...news flash: that's is the majority of the team. All of the goaltending all of the decent defense.

Let's stop making believe that there was a revamp from ground zero. It's just not true.

The other false narrative is this great drafting. Time will tell, but right now it's inconclusive. Ray's team has two players in the line up. Bratt and Hischier. Hischier as stated above is a gift from the hockey gods...drafing #1 overall and getting a good player is no great feat. I'm thankful for ping pong balls and we should all be. Bratt is a sweet pick no doubt about that.

Ok, hate to say it, but you've got a huge false narrative going here. Too big to dissect in one reply.

Firstly, the 2015 draft is on Shero; win or lose. He was in control. He was Conte's boss. It's on him.

Of the prospects you named who were here before Ray, only Santini looks like a legit core player. The others have various degrees of value, but none are more than NHL journeymen. Maybe Blandisi or Kinkaid beat those odds, but I doubt it.

Yes, Henrique, Zajac and Greene are core players, but every GM inherits something, unless we're talking expansion. So what? Lou inherited key pieces too.

Are you really trying to say that since Severson and Santini were drafted by Lou, and since Zajac and Greene are Lou's guys, that Shero has done nothing? "Ridiculous" isn't even the word.

 

[Blender]

Shero is going to build a cup team and he will still find away to not give him any credit.

...but did he build 3 cup teams?

 

[JimEIV]

I'll be happy just making the playoffs.

 

[JimEIV]

...but did he build 3 cup teams?

Or make the conference finals in his year after the franchise never made the playoffs in their history?

Or make the conference finals 3 times, make the playoffs 7 of his first 8 years and win a cup after the franchise was chased from two cities and never had an above 500 record in their history.

 

[Emperoreddy]

...but did he build 3 cup teams?

I meant here. It should go without saying Shero already has built cup teams.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

The Lou vs. Shero rhetoric is probably the most tiring thing to read. I'd rather us go back and forth about what 4th liners should be playing for 20 pages...