Devils 2017-18 team discussion (player news and notes) III

[NJDevs26]

Any trades that would significantly upgrade the Devils at this point would requiring parting with an asset we shouldn't. I'd honestly rather just stand pat for the rest of the season and let the kids experience the stretch run and playoffs. See who thrives and who sinks, let the young guys realize what it takes to win in the playoffs, find out what you truly need to compete, and make changes accordingly. As someone noted, Hall, Bratt, Hischier, and Vatanen's current deals all expire two seasons after this one. I think Shero is going to do his best to compete before then while they're all signed to team-friendly deals.

That really shouldn't be a huge concern atm considering by then they'll be out or just about out from other big-ish money deals and I'm not sure Vat gets THAT big a raise considering he's making nearly $5 million per now.

I like Hoffman, but I don't think I'd move Santini for him. Plus Hoffman is a LW no? I think RW is a bigger need at the moment.

Plus at a certain point you have to stop trading defensemen for forwards when we're already better up front than we are on D.

 

[MadDevil]

Moore is a tough case. He hasn't made as many mind dumbingly stupid decisions as he's made in the past, but he could easily slip back to that if we re-sign him. It's also kind of a numbers game. I think most would agree that Butcher and Mueller should be kept. Greene probably isn't going anywhere either, so that's already 3 LHD. If we want to upgrade the left side somebody either has to go, get dropped to a #7 role, or get moved to the right side. And that's without Moore, so if we re-sign him it's even more of a logjam.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Hall really got fined for that hit.

 

[RSeen]

Hoffman would be our 2nd best forward right now. I trade Santini for him easy. Hoffman is a top line player.

 

[Bleedred]

I just don’t see a substantial enough upgrade available without making a trade that could just as easily hurt us.

I feel like somebody could be had for something. And I'm also not convinced that Moore will be this good next year or in the coming years, but I do like the way he's played this year.

Moore is a tough case. He hasn't made as many mind dumbingly stupid decisions as he's made in the past, but he could easily slip back to that if we re-sign him. It's also kind of a numbers game. I think most would agree that Butcher and Mueller should be kept. Greene probably isn't going anywhere either, so that's already 3 LHD. If we want to upgrade the left side somebody either has to go, get dropped to a #7 role, or get moved to the right side. And that's without Moore, so if we re-sign him it's even more of a logjam.

That's pretty much it for me. A numbers game and he's the easiest to part ways with right now. It's easy to move away from Lovejoy too, but I'm not even counting him as part of our top 6 defensemen, I think he's either bought out or should be the 7th again next year. The way they've been playing him lately, it almost seems like he'll be in every night next year, although I don't think he really will be, as none of us saw him as a healthy scratch ever coming before this season started.

 

[NJDevs26]

If you're gonna keep Moore then you pretty much are committed to the current six-man D (with Santini eventually back over Lovejoy) and more or less have to send Mueller packing, it's not really feasible to get rid of another d-man at the moment for different reasons. Greene's got the NTC and multiple years left and the other guys each bring distinct traits and are under team control for the next couple seasons.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Santini already is a top 4 Dman. It isn’t upside, he already is.

He isn’t playing because Hynes is an idiot and doesn’t ever seem to want to ice our best 6 D.

D is more valuable then wingers. We are absolutely in no position defensively to think top 4 D are suddenly expendable. That is crazy talk.

He isn’t a good top 4 defenseman and won’t be on this team. I mean that literally, he is behind two right handed defensemen, so by definition he isn’t a top 4.

And you can’t be serious with that last bit. It’s the exact same logic used by defenders of the Hall for Larsson trade. It’s obviously not true that defenseman are always more valuable than wingers. Hoffman has a much bigger impact on games than Santini.

 

[Billdo]

I feel like somebody could be had for something. And I'm also not convinced that Moore will be this good next year or in the coming years, but I do like the way he's played this year.


That's pretty much it for me. A numbers game and he's the easiest to part ways with right now. It's easy to move away from Lovejoy too, but I'm not even counting him as part of our top 6 defensemen, I think he's either bought out or should be the 7th again next year. The way they've been playing him lately, it almost seems like he'll be in every night next year, although I don't think he really will be, as none of us saw him as a healthy scratch ever coming before this season started.

This is also a larger issue. We have a bunch of guys who are good but we are without any genuine top pairing defenseman. Vatanen is close to that and if he had an even above average LD partner that could work but between Moore, Greene, Butcher, and Mueller none of them truly belong as a top pairing D. We have a bunch of ok but not great which is kind of tricky to deal with. I honestly think the odd man out if we don’t trade Lovejoy is Santini. I’m also not sure we haven’t played Lovejoy as much as we have because we aren’t showcasing him in a sense. I wouldn’t be shocked if someone gave a late pick for a guy like him.

 

[NJDevs26]

It’s the exact same logic used by defenders of the Hall for Larsson trade. It’s obviously not true that defenseman are always more valuable than wingers. Hoffman has a much bigger impact on games than Santini.

You can't count on robbing them with Hoffman for Santini straight up though. The Hall-Larsson trade was ridiculous value at a time where they still needed forwards. It would have to be Santini plus and we're not in the position to give up market value for another foward, subtracting from the D to do it.

 

[AveryQuietMan]

If you're gonna keep Moore then you pretty much are committed to the current six-man D (with Santini eventually back over Lovejoy) and more or less have to send Mueller packing, it's not really feasible to get rid of another d-man at the moment for different reasons. Greene's got the NTC and multiple years left and the other guys each bring distinct traits and are under team control for the next couple seasons.

moore was bagged on from the start because he came from the rangers. because of that fact his mistakes were amplified. he has been one of our most solid d-men this year. this discussion is absurd IMO. really dont understand the constant hate no matter what he does to prove people wrong. maybe its the hair.... people get jealous what can you say. re-sign him

 

[NJDevs26]

moore was bagged on from the start because he came from the rangers. because of that fact his mistakes were amplified. he has been one of our most solid d-men this year. this discussion is absurd IMO. really dont understand the constant hate no matter what he does to prove people wrong. maybe its the hair.... people get jealous what can you say.

Where in my post did I 'hate' on Moore?

And I disagree with your premise that people bagged on him just because he was an ex-Ranger, one of THREE teams he played for, before landing here. He was an insignificant bit player there and non-tendered by freaking Arizona, a team with a worse D than ours - that alone was worth looking at him suspect over. He's definitely been more consistent this year than his first two seasons but it's pretty much a question of which LD you want to keep - Moore or Mueller? Butcher's too important offensively and Greene's not going anywhere till at least the end of next year because of the contract/NTC imo. Mueller has a higher celing defensively and a lower output offensively imo, it's not an easy choice either way.

 

[Alex NJD]

Santini already is a top 4 Dman. It isn’t upside, he already is.

He isn’t playing because Hynes is an idiot and doesn’t ever seem to want to ice our best 6 D.

D is more valuable then wingers. We are absolutely in no position defensively to think top 4 D are suddenly expendable. That is crazy talk.

He's played like a top 4 dman this year just needs a tad more consistency. Agreed on Hynes not icing our 6 best D

 

[Missionhockey]

IF Zajac gets middling ice time and PK duties, I think we can be fine to keep him. Yes, I realize his contract is not ideal, but we don't have cap problems at the moment.

I agree with this, we'd have to give up assets to get rid of him due to his contract at the moment. Unfortunately at the moment, I feel like the organization might have overrated their center depth. Zajac might be a fine 3rd line center but the Devils need someone that will produce on the second line. Maybe if Zacha starts potting some pucks we would have a legitimate second line, but at the moment there's a huge hole there.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

You can't count on robbing them with Hoffman for Santini straight up though. The Hall-Larsson trade was ridiculous value at a time where they still needed forwards. It would have to be Santini plus and we're not in the position to give up market value for another foward, subtracting from the D to do it.

True. Definitely depends on the plus. If it’s like JQ/Anderson and a 2nd/3rd, I may still do it.

 

[Emperoreddy]

True. Definitely depends on the plus. If it’s like JQ/Anderson and a 2nd/3rd, I may still do it.

That is still robbing them. It is going to cost more then that. That is pretty cheap

 

[AveryQuietMan]

Where in my post did I 'hate' on Moore?

And I disagree with your premise that people bagged on him just because he was an ex-Ranger, one of THREE teams he played for, before landing here. He was an insignificant bit player there and non-tendered by freaking Arizona, a team with a worse D than ours - that alone was worth looking at him suspect over. He's definitely been more consistent this year than his first two seasons but it's pretty much a question of which LD you want to keep - Moore or Mueller? Butcher's too important offensively and Greene's not going anywhere till at least the end of next year because of the contract/NTC imo. Mueller has a higher celing defensively and a lower output offensively imo, it's not an easy choice either way.

never said you hate on him. people hate on him tho. maybe just a lost in translation moment, i dont think people hate him but they hate on him.

well i disagree as well, i think the former ranger status has a lot to do with it. its just my opinion so whatever doesnt really matter. the fact is people destroy the guy like its their job. he has been SOLID. this is a guy you re-sign. not to a long term deal. give him three years, sign carlson, and figure out the rest before this deadline or over the summer. doesnt have to be in that order. gonna have to agree to disagree here and maybe im in the minority but i want moore on the team going forward.

 

[Bleedred]

moore was bagged on from the start because he came from the rangers. because of that fact his mistakes were amplified. he has been one of our most solid d-men this year. this discussion is absurd IMO. really dont understand the constant hate no matter what he does to prove people wrong. maybe its the hair.... people get jealous what can you say. re-sign him

It's not hate, but it comes down to the same thing as it did with Henrique and Gionta (Brian back in 2009), and some other guys back in Lou's tenure.

We can't re-sign everybody, or else we're just re-signing them to re-sign them. We could use his spot/money to possibly better upgrade the D.

In an ideal world, maybe in 2018 we would rather have Moore over Greene (I've maintained that I believe that Greene would be fine in a bottom pairing role though), but it's just not realistic.

Back in 2009, we got rid of Brian Gionta and eventually replaced his spot with that guy that we no longer speak of. At the time, I really wanted to keep Gionta. If I had it my way, I would have never signed Rolston and used that money to re-up Gionta, but that's really backtracking now. We didn't get rid of Brian Gionta because he sucked, we got rid of him because he was gonna get a big contract (we were up against the cap) and we wanted to keep our options open to replace him. Just like Henrique a couple months back. We didn't get rid of Henrique because he sucked or because we hated him, we got rid of him because his next contract is gonna be pretty bad and he was a good chip in getting a defenseman.

 

[Nubmer6]

Moore has been solid this year, but he was pretty horrible the previous 2 years and deserved all the criticizm as far as I'm concerned, ex-Ranger or not. He's taken an almost Wood-like leap this year.

 

[Nubmer6]

Just like Henrique a couple months back. We didn't get rid of Henrique because he sucked or because we hated him, we got rid of him because his next contract is gonna be pretty bad and he was a good chip in getting a defenseman.

Actually, I think we got rid of him cause we got an offer we couldn't refuse from a team struggling with injuries... a top 4 D-man for an inconsistent 2nd/3rd line wing/center.

 

[NJDevs26]

Back in 2009, we got rid of Brian Gionta and eventually replaced his spot with that guy that we no longer speak of. At the time, I really wanted to keep Gionta. If I had it my way, I would have never signed Rolston and used that money to re-up Gionta, but that's really backtracking now. We didn't get rid of Brian Gionta because he sucked, we got rid of him because he was gonna get a big contract (we were up against the cap) and we wanted to keep our options open to replace him. Just like Henrique a couple months back. We didn't get rid of Henrique because he sucked or because we hated him, we got rid of him because his next contract is gonna be pretty bad and he was a good chip in getting a defenseman.

The irony is we got rid of Gionta partly cause of Nicklas Bergfors lol...or rather we didn't really get rid of him it's just Montreal overpaid dramatically for him. I think it was even you that said at one point Lou made Gionta an offer but when told of the Montreal contract said Brian had to take it for his family. But after Bergfors had a good first twenty games or so he tailed off then got traded for the Russian drama king. Plus I think we re-signed Rolston that offseason which didn't thrill me, we essentially replaced Gionta with Rolston tbh. Or it was the next offseason.

 

[AveryQuietMan]

It's not hate, but it comes down to the same thing as it did with Henrique and Gionta (Brian back in 2009), and some other guys back in Lou's tenure.

We can't re-sign everybody, or else we're just re-signing them to re-sign them. We could use his spot/money to possibly better upgrade the D.

In an ideal world, maybe in 2018 we would rather have Moore over Greene (I've maintained that I believe that Greene would be fine in a bottom pairing role though), but it's just not realistic.

Back in 2009, we got rid of Brian Gionta and eventually replaced his spot with that guy that we no longer speak of. At the time, I really wanted to keep Gionta. If I had it my way, I would have never signed Rolston and used that money to re-up Gionta, but that's really backtracking now. We didn't get rid of Brian Gionta because he sucked, we got rid of him because he was gonna get a big contract (we were up against the cap) and we wanted to keep our options open to replace him. Just like Henrique a couple months back. We didn't get rid of Henrique because we sucked and because we hated him, we got rid of him because his next contract is gonna be pretty bad and he was a good chip in getting a defenseman.

it is hate tho. people are so invested in their views that they wont drop it even if a player turns it around. in turn they want to do anything to make themselves seem right.... i.e. cutting moore loose.

im am not for cutting greene i am just saying there is wiggle room here. we are crossing into Feb. of 2018. there is still a trade deadline and FA to go. maybe this isnt a lou management team but i still see a move coming despite the sami/rico trade. maybe it will involve a D man.

stop with the fallacies comparing henrique to moore. its apples and oranges.

none of us are gms and this is all speculation. i would just rather see us keep moore and make a move so he fits. its really not out of the realm of possibility. maybe in the end you are right and moore is gone. i couldnt care less. this is just my two cents and i think moore has been great and is a guy you look to resign at this point. he is playing top minutes and doing well. so lets just let him go! absurd.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Honestly I rather just stand pat and let Vats be our big trade.

 

[Billdo]

Honestly I rather just stand pat and let Vats be our big trade.

I think this is what we do in the end. I don’t see why we’d give up the assets required to land what we actually need at this point.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I think this is what we do in the end. I don’t see why we’d give up the assets required to land what we actually need at this point.

The next big piece isn’t really a the type of piece moved at the deadline either. Especially not at a reasonable price.

I can see us potentially making a big move at the draft though.

 

[NjDevsRR]

it is hate tho. people are so invested in their views that they wont drop it even if a player turns it around. in turn they want to do anything to make themselves seem right.... i.e. cutting moore loose.

im am not for cutting greene i am just saying there is wiggle room here. we are crossing into Feb. of 2018. there is still a trade deadline and FA to go. maybe this isnt a lou management team but i still see a move coming despite the sami/rico trade. maybe it will involve a D man.

stop with the fallacies comparing henrique to moore. its apples and oranges.

none of us are gms and this is all speculation. i would just rather see us keep moore and make a move so he fits. its really not out of the realm of possibility. maybe in the end you are right and moore is gone. i couldnt care less. this is just my two cents and i think moore has been great and is a guy you look to resign at this point. he is playing top minutes and doing well. so lets just let him go! absurd.

For my OCD...

For the love of God, use capital letters in your sentences when they are needed.