Proposal: Detroit - Edmonton

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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Holy **** is Mantha getting overrated in here... He is a good player but nothing to warrant this type of return. I wouldn't trade Nuge straight up for him and you want Klefbom on top of that? The guy hasn't even cracked 50 points once...

Let's not get carried away. He's on an 82 game pace for 28g/21a/49p which would essentially be that plateau you mentioned. Additioanlly, the Nuge+Klefbom+pick package was initially mentioned for Mantha+Green. Nobody is insinuating (at least not logically) that Mantha can command that return on his own. In the end, Detroit is probably not signing on a deal that moves Mantha for a high draft pick exclusively. At 23 in his second full season, he's trending in the right direction, and fits in with the Wings plan right now. The only way I see him being moved would be for multiple young or future assets; it makes no sense to do one in, one out. At the same time, Edmonton is absolutely right in their stance to not want to give up the type of assets it would take, because while they should be able to compete right now, they would be much better served to build on the young foundation for long term success. They need to hit on productive, cost controlled players that can fit with McDavid's and Drai's contracts.
 
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McNuge

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Let's not get carried away. He's on an 82 game pace for 28g/21a/49p which would essentially be that plateau you mentioned. Additioanlly, the Nuge+Klefbom+pick package was initially mentioned for Mantha+Green. Nobody is insinuating (at least not logically) that Mantha can command that return on his own. In the end, Detroit is probably not signing on a deal that moves Mantha for a high draft pick exclusively. At 23 in his second full season, he's trending in the right direction, and fits in with the Wings plan right now. The only way I see him being moved would be for multiple young or future assets; it makes no sense to do one in, one out. At the same time, Edmonton is absolutely right in their stance to not want to give up the type of assets it would take, because while they should be able to compete right now, they would be much better served to build on the young foundation for long term success. They need to hit on productive, cost controlled players that can fit with McDavid's and Drai's contracts.

RNH who is on pace for 56 in 82, plays C, 1 year older, and signed for 3 more seasons at roughly what I'd expect Mantha to get is worth more than Mantha. How on earth does it cost Klefbom and a pick to get a UFA Mike Green?
 

WingsMJN2965

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If you re-draft 2013, Mantha probably goes top 10 or just outside it, and it was a deep draft. Better to keep the sure thing than to take a swing and potentially miss with a roughly equivalent pick.
 

Hen Kolland

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RNH who is on pace for 56 in 82, plays C, 1 year older, and signed for 3 more seasons at roughly what I'd expect Mantha to get is worth more than Mantha. How on earth does it cost Klefbom and a pick to get a UFA Mike Green?

Just going to ignore that deal in general because I know it's horrible. But comparing RNH to Mantha is interesting to me. The #1 overall pick that has never exceeded 56 points and is playing in his seventh season. Has a career best in goals that is one more than what Mantha is sitting with right now. Granted some of his seasons aren't full seasons, but by that logic, then this is Mantha's first full season healthy and playing a consistent top 6 role. I like RNH's game quite a lot, but Mantha still is poised to develop with experience, where I think we have seen enough to RNH to know exactly what he is.

I expect Mantha to sign for less money, and be more productive and impactful than RNH starting next year. So I'll disagree with your valuation, but since you value Nuge more, you'll be happy to keep him as your 3rd best center making $6M and I'll be happy to keep Mantha.
 

WingsMJN2965

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Honestly I wouldn't trade Mantha for RNH simply because even if RNH is the better player, we're trading our best winger for a guy who would be our #2C.
 

McNuge

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Just going to ignore that deal in general because I know it's horrible. But comparing RNH to Mantha is interesting to me. The #1 overall pick that has never exceeded 56 points and is playing in his seventh season. Has a career best in goals that is one more than what Mantha is sitting with right now. Granted some of his seasons aren't full seasons, but by that logic, then this is Mantha's first full season healthy and playing a consistent top 6 role. I like RNH's game quite a lot, but Mantha still is poised to develop with experience, where I think we have seen enough to RNH to know exactly what he is.

I expect Mantha to sign for less money, and be more productive and impactful than RNH starting next year. So I'll disagree with your valuation, but since you value Nuge more, you'll be happy to keep him as your 3rd best center making $6M and I'll be happy to keep Mantha.

Mantha is a year younger than Nuge, why is he going to develop further and Nuge is not? Seems silly to me. Mantha was/ is also known as a goal scorer, Nuge, not so much. So I would hope the goal scorer would have more goals.
 
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dragonballgtz

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Mantha for the 8th overall pick I would do. If it means the Wings could potentially address the needs for a #1 center or #1 defenseman I'm all for it.
 

ManofSteel55

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Let's not get carried away. He's on an 82 game pace for 28g/21a/49p which would essentially be that plateau you mentioned. Additioanlly, the Nuge+Klefbom+pick package was initially mentioned for Mantha+Green. Nobody is insinuating (at least not logically) that Mantha can command that return on his own. In the end, Detroit is probably not signing on a deal that moves Mantha for a high draft pick exclusively. At 23 in his second full season, he's trending in the right direction, and fits in with the Wings plan right now. The only way I see him being moved would be for multiple young or future assets; it makes no sense to do one in, one out. At the same time, Edmonton is absolutely right in their stance to not want to give up the type of assets it would take, because while they should be able to compete right now, they would be much better served to build on the young foundation for long term success. They need to hit on productive, cost controlled players that can fit with McDavid's and Drai's contracts.
Pending UFA's like Green usually go for mid round picks. So it was still basically Klefbom and Nuge for Mantha. I get that the Wings aren't in a hurry to trade him, he's a good emerging player, but its yet another example of RNH being underrated, as he's essentially the same age and the more complete and productive player. Adding Klefbom for Green makes it ridiculously lopsided, even if you consider Mantha to have higher value than RNH.
 

ManofSteel55

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Honestly I wouldn't trade Mantha for RNH simply because even if RNH is the better player, we're trading our best winger for a guy who would be our #2C.
This is completely fair. Not wanting a similarly valued asset because of team need it logical. Trying to portray Mantha is worth exponentially more than Nuge is not. Let's just call Mantha near untouchable and leave this portion of the conversation alone.
 
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WingsMJN2965

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This is completely fair. Not wanting a similarly valued asset because of team need it logical. Trying to portray Mantha is worth exponentially more than Nuge is not. Let's just call Mantha near untouchable and leave this portion of the conversation alone.

Nah, as I said on the last page, that proposal was absurd.

Just don't have much interest in Nuge. Don't really see Larkin as a legit #1C unless he hits his absolute ceiling, and I think he'll develop to be a better center than Nuge, if he's not already. Not much point in trading assets to get a 2nd #2C. Especially if they expect Rasmussen to develop well.
 

Cotton

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I like Mantha, been saying he’ll be the next Eric Daze since his final year in Val d’Or, but his numbers aren’t what they appear to be, and by that I mean he and Larkin were clicking at the start of the year and he had 19pts in his first 19 games.

19GP 10G 19PTS

The rest of the year;
49GP 13G 22PTS

Which maybe is a little more reflective of where he’s at. He’s inconsistent too, he has six (6) separate stretches of at least 4 games without registering a point (and produced in only 26 of his 68 GP). For comparisons sake Larkin has 2 of these stretches (produced in 36/70GP). And a goal scoring winger like JVR who is considered streaky has 3 (produced in 36/70).
 

WingsMJN2965

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Oct 13, 2017
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I like Mantha, been saying he’ll be the next Eric Daze since his final year in Val d’Or, but his numbers aren’t what they appear to be, and by that I mean he and Larkin were clicking at the start of the year and he had 19pts in his first 19 games.

19GP 10G 19PTS

The rest of the year;
49GP 13G 22PTS

Which maybe is a little more reflective of where he’s at. He’s inconsistent too, he has six (6) separate stretches of at least 4 games without registering a point (and produced in only 26 of his 68 GP). For comparisons sake Larkin has 2 of these stretches (produced in 36/70GP). And a goal scoring winger like JVR who is considered streaky has 3 (produced in 36/70).

Ugh. Please don't compare to Daze. Detroit's had more than their fair share of promising players robbed of their careers.
 

LarKing

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I like Mantha, been saying he’ll be the next Eric Daze since his final year in Val d’Or, but his numbers aren’t what they appear to be, and by that I mean he and Larkin were clicking at the start of the year and he had 19pts in his first 19 games.

19GP 10G 19PTS

The rest of the year;
49GP 13G 22PTS

Which maybe is a little more reflective of where he’s at. He’s inconsistent too, he has six (6) separate stretches of at least 4 games without registering a point (and produced in only 26 of his 68 GP). For comparisons sake Larkin has 2 of these stretches (produced in 36/70GP). And a goal scoring winger like JVR who is considered streaky has 3 (produced in 36/70).

And I’m sure he’s had a major cold streak outside of those 19 games. You don’t get to take one without the other. It doesn’t work like that. As posted at the top of the page, he’s on pace for a bit below 30g and 50p. He took a bit to adjust to the ahl too. We think he has much more to offer.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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Mantha is a year younger than Nuge, why is he going to develop further and Nuge is not? Seems silly to me. Mantha was/ is also known as a goal scorer, Nuge, not so much. So I would hope the goal scorer would have more goals.

Why is Mantha going to develop more than RNH? Because Mantha is in his second season and learning his way, the best players he has had the chance to play with are a 36-37 year old Zetterberg and Larkin. Nuge is in his 7th year and has played with Hall, McDavid, Draisaitl, Eberle over the years. My point isn't about age dictating progress, and I'm not saying RNH can't still get better, but he's played significantly better players and has years of experience on Mantha at the NHL level; you can't deny that there is a severe learning/development curve, otherwise you could call up any AHL or juniors player and expect them to produce exactly how they did in the lesser league.
 

Wingsfan 4 life

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Oct 9, 2016
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:laugh:

Guy is a Wings fan living in Edmonton. Not that you care enough for the response lol, but I asked him what he thought about this article, and the conversation started from there. Old school guy who doesn't like Mantha ("he's a floater"), thought Kris Russell and/or RNH for Mantha would be a good swap (lol)...I said how about 8th overall...he thought that was too much for Edmonton to give up. Hence the thread.

Wait. This is the friction you're talking about in the OP? I thought you were talking about Jimmy D calling Mantha disapponting after his first season in the AHL.
 

McNuge

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Why is Mantha going to develop more than RNH? Because Mantha is in his second season and learning his way, the best players he has had the chance to play with are a 36-37 year old Zetterberg and Larkin. Nuge is in his 7th year and has played with Hall, McDavid, Draisaitl, Eberle over the years. My point isn't about age dictating progress, and I'm not saying RNH can't still get better, but he's played significantly better players and has years of experience on Mantha at the NHL level; you can't deny that there is a severe learning/development curve, otherwise you could call up any AHL or juniors player and expect them to produce exactly how they did in the lesser league.

RNH had no mentor when he came in to the league. So while he did play with Hall and Eberle, he was also thrown to the wolves and was the teams #1C until McDavid came along. He has progressed his overall game since he has entered the league, and continues to grow his offensive game as he has shown this year.

Regardless I think we are going in circles, Mantha is a great player but so is RNH.
 
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Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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RNH had no mentor when he came in to the league. So while he did play with Hall and Eberle, he was also thrown to the wolves and was the teams #1C until McDavid came along. He has progressed his overall game since he has entered the league, and continues to grow his offensive game as he has shown this year.

Regardless I think we are going in circles, Mantha is a great player but so is RNH.

I agree with that, and I think this got completely sidetracked over the proposal that OP admitted wasn't exactly thought out. Like I said earlier, the only trade that might make sense for Edmonton would be moving either prospects and picks that don't project to be what Mantha projects to be, which Detroit wouldn't be interested in, or the Oilers move a bigger piece, like the first round pick, but again the Wings wouldn't be interested because they already have Mantha. They have seen his capabilities and any one draft pick would be a lottery ticket that could be greater, lesser, or the same.

If the teams were at different stages, where Edmonton had a more established long term foundation, or if Mantha was a little older than the Wings core group, I could see a deal. It's just impossible for a move like this to happen when both teams would be looking for the same thing.
 
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Number1RedWingsFan52

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Mar 17, 2013
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Winter Haven Florida
Not interested in dealing Mantha, Especially for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Larkin is probably our #1C and Rasmussen possibly our #2C down the road so RNH isn't needed at the expense of Mantha don't see a deal being done here.
 

GOilers88

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Dec 24, 2016
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Simply on the premise that I'm so sick and tired of hearing how the Oilers traded Barzal for Reinhart, I hope Chiarelli never trades a first round pick ever again.
 

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