Confirmed with Link: Derrick Pouliot's here because reasons. Part 1. (#859)

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Melvin

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None of this is evidence that others weren’t prepared to trade for these players, or that they didn’t have value. Sure if trade partners weren’t found it’s possible that they could have hit waivers and we’re clearly thought of as surplus to requirements by their organisations, but then most tased players are. Seeing as trade partners were found and there could have been others bidding, means no one who is arguing the “Canucks wasted assets when we could have had the player for free on waivers” has anything but their own assumptions to go on.

I understand if people don’t like the trades because they don’t like the players they got in return, or don’t like strategy of giving up draft picks for older prospects who have fallen out of favour. If you want to have a go at Benning ability, he’s made enough outright bad moves without this nonsense. Even bad or mediocre GMs can make good trades with sound logic sometimes.

If you position is that we will never know all of the details so we should not bother to speculate, then we might as well just close up this board right now.

We will never know, even half of the details for transactions. All we can do is speculate. As another poster noted, it is not about Pouliot in particular, it is the pattern of behaviour. Benning is making a reputation for giving up picks for guys who are likely waiver-bound. Pouliot is just the latest possible example.
 

scorvat53

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I think anyone who 'poo-poo's the "poo" trade at this point is just someone looking to wipe away what is now exposed as baseless mud-slinging when Pittsburg's prospect pipeline, unable to properly shape his game, laid him on us a few weeks back.

Poo' has been more than just solid, he's shown signs of being that slick and highly offensive lump of raw talent, we all heard about at some point.

And yes, that backdoor play right up the middle of the slot is a big no-no to coaches, but coaches never want to try anything new, they want the same standardized positional play night after night
Sometimes you need to be adventurous

I think he's been ok at best..but getting better game to game which is a encouraging sign.

He is playing an extremely sheltered role right now. If one of MDZ, Hutton or Guddy go down and they are forced to give him tougher minutes I think he could be exposed.
 

Scurr

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I don't think "sheltered" is being used appropriately. IMO it's reserved for guys playing <10 minutes a game, where the coach hand picks the competition for them. Playing offensive zone starts is certainly advantageous... but not the same thing.
 
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Melvin

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I don't think "sheltered" is being used appropriately. IMO it's reserved for guys playing <10 minutes a game, where the coach hand picks the competition for them. Playing offensive zone starts is certainly advantageous... but not the same thing.

You may be right, but his minutes are definitely soft. It is not just the zone starts; he is also getting more PP time lately than anyone, does not kill penalties and plays barely more at ES than Biega (who, conversely, kills penalties and gets 0 PP time.)

For people to conclude that he's been "our best defenseman" shows their lack of ability to consider this sort of context.
 

vancityluongo

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This has got to be tongue in cheek, right?....Weber and Bartkowski?......Pouliot has shown more in 15 games with the Canucks than those journeyman d-man have shown in their entire careers....He's already been asked by Travis Green to shift from his normal left side to the right, and excelled.....And Biega as a 'calming influence' on the pairing with Pouliot?.....I love the Bulldog as much as anyone, but he's all over the map and has been a bit of a trainwreck in the last couple of outings....no, unless the last few games have been an optical illusion, Canuck fans have reason to start getting excited about Pouliot. Was interesting to see Pouliot matched up against Doughty last night....I actually thought he was better of the two.

Biega is absolutely a calming influence as a D partner. Watch Hutton play with Biega vs with Gudbranson. World of difference. What Biega lacks in skill he makes up for through communication, which makes him a solid partner for a guy like Pouliot who was never had a skill issue but has had on-ice IQ issues. I'm not saying Biega plays like Tanev or using the word calming to describe his poise - he definitely can be a bit erratic and aggressive at times.

And lol saying Pouliot was better than Doughty can't possibly be tongue in cheek...that's just insane.

Weber was a good 6th defenseman here and continues to be on a stacked Nashville d corps. Bartkowski was a disaster. For a guy who was days away from waivers and is only 15 games into his Canuck career, being closer to Weber than Bartkowski on the bottom pairing defenseman spectrum is a compliment.
 

Uhmkay

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You may be right, but his minutes are definitely soft. It is not just the zone starts; he is also getting more PP time lately than anyone, does not kill penalties and plays barely more at ES than Biega (who, conversely, kills penalties and gets 0 PP time.)

For people to conclude that he's been "our best defenseman" shows their lack of ability to consider this sort of context.

Pouliut is a shot producing machine compared to Biega, which is why he's getting more offensive zone starts and PP time.

I guess when the Sedins were getting the vast majority of offensive zone starts and PP time they were getting 'sheltered' minutes as well.

Offensive players play in offensive situations, defensive players play in defensive ones. This isn't rocket science, and it was one of the major changes made when Gillis took over that made us such a good team.
 

Melvin

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Pouliut is a shot producing machine compared to Biega, which is why he's getting more offensive zone starts and PP time.

I guess when the Sedins were getting the vast majority of offensive zone starts and PP time they were getting 'sheltered' minutes as well.

Offensive players play in offensive situations, defensive players play in defensive ones. This isn't rocket science, and it was one of the major changes made when Gillis took over that made us such a good team.

I am not seeing how you are contradicting anything anyone has said. This is just a bunch of words, picked seemingly at random from a dictionary.

He is getting soft minutes. He is playing on the bottom pairing with top PP time, and barely ever starting in the defensive zone. There is nothing wrong with this usage, nor is there anything wrong with pointing it out to people who are comparing him to Drew Doughty.

"It's not rocket science." :rolleyes:
 
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scorvat53

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I don't think "sheltered" is being used appropriately. IMO it's reserved for guys playing <10 minutes a game, where the coach hand picks the competition for them. Playing offensive zone starts is certainly advantageous... but not the same thing.

Ok I apologize..but he has played over 20 mins twice this season (tougher minutes) and we lost 4-1 and 5-0. All I'm saying is if he gets forced into a role with more minutes and tougher match ups through injuries he might struggle.
 

Catamarca Livin

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Who has been? Defn not Hutton, Gudbranson, Biega, MDZ. Please make an argument for any of these 4 in the last couple weeks. You could vote for a joint Edler/Tanev option but Tanev had a few average games with bad giveaways before his injury after playing great the first 10 games. Edler has played 2 good games because Pouliot is exiting the zone so well. Without a doubt Pouliot has been the most consitent dman since the loss of Tanev and I would say for some time before that. I am not saying he is better than Edler and Tanev but in this small sample he has played as well as them and better than the other 4 dman. If you went game by game you would likely reach a similiar conclusion.
 
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Melvin

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He is doing OK in the softest minutes on D. MDZ and Hutton are playing much more difficult roles. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.
 

Catamarca Livin

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Biega is absolutely a calming influence as a D partner. Watch Hutton play with Biega vs with Gudbranson. World of difference. What Biega lacks in skill he makes up for through communication, which makes him a solid partner for a guy like Pouliot who was never had a skill issue but has had on-ice IQ issues. I'm not saying Biega plays like Tanev or using the word calming to describe his poise - he definitely can be a bit erratic and aggressive at times.

And lol saying Pouliot was better than Doughty can't possibly be tongue in cheek...that's just insane.

Weber was a good 6th defenseman here and continues to be on a stacked Nashville d corps. Bartkowski was a disaster. For a guy who was days away from waivers and is only 15 games into his Canuck career, being closer to Weber than Bartkowski on the bottom pairing defenseman spectrum is a compliment.

Pouliot has on ice IQ issues? Where does that come from? Biega can not take a pass or give a pass which leads to chaos. He hits like a truck, joins the rush, always competes and rarely gets beat in battles. However that is not calming Tanev is calming as he makes simple plays at a high percentage. Pouliot has been a calming inflence by completing higher skilled plays. Hutton, MDZ, Gudbranson all give the puck away more than Pouliot. What calms the team is having control of the puck in the offensive and neutral zones.
 

Cupless44

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I am not seeing how you are contradicting anything anyone has said. This is just a bunch of words, picked seemingly at random from a dictionary.

He is getting soft minutes. He is playing on the bottom pairing with top PP time, and barely ever starting in the defensive zone. There is nothing wrong with this usage, nor is there anything wrong with pointing it out to people who are comparing him to Drew Doughty.

"It's not rocket science." :rolleyes:



From today's Province Gameday "The Canucks plan to weather the loss of Chris Tanev by leaning on an Alex Edler-Derrick Pouliot pairing."

Doesnt sound like Pouliot is on the bottom pairing or getting sheltered minutes
 

krutovsdonut

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Ok I apologize..but he has played over 20 mins twice this season (tougher minutes) and we lost 4-1 and 5-0. All I'm saying is if he gets forced into a role with more minutes and tougher match ups through injuries he might struggle.

yeah, no. those were games we were trailing so he got played a lot. they were not games where he personally struggled with big minutes and thus lost us the game.

this whole soft minutes thing is nonsense. he is less sheltered than he has been now that he is playing with edler. tanev is out. we can't afford to shelter edler so he can babysit pouliot. they are perhaps being used more in offensive situations, and they are not being used for the top line match up, but pouliot is not being sheltered. the opposite is happening. he's getting more responsibility than a bottom 6 guy and they are juggling to do it. biega is alternating with hutton and del zotto with the soft minutes.

it's funny how the sheltered meme is being used in this thread to provide time and space for pouliot detractors to come up with a new narrative. if pouliot was as slow as his detractors at pivoting and reversing course he'd be benched by now.
 
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Melvin

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From today's Province Gameday "The Canucks plan to weather the loss of Chris Tanev by leaning on an Alex Edler-Derrick Pouliot pairing."

Doesnt sound like Pouliot is on the bottom pairing or getting sheltered minutes

I'll take the fact that he is getting 5th-most icetime at ES over some snippet from the f***ing Province (that still exists?)
 

Catamarca Livin

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He is doing OK in the softest minutes on D. MDZ and Hutton are playing much more difficult roles. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.

MDZ has been coughing up the puck regularly. Him and Biega are a bit of a tire fire while Pouliot and Biega were very good together. Basically 5 on 5 Pouliot has taken over MDZ role though on right side. The coach has promoted Pouliot above MDZ at 5 on 5 and the pp for good reason. Edler and Pouliot are our top pair. Though Guddy and Hutton have been used for the hardest minutes. It is simple who is our top line Horvat's or Sutter's? I would say Horvat's even though Sutter's line plays tougher minutes. We will see but I do not see anyone arguing that Pouliot is not playing well. Just a lot of weak explanations of why he is playing well. Sheltered minutes calming inflence of Biega etc. I am going with he is playing well because he is good until proven otherwise. I have been expecting him to falter everygame it has not happened even when the team was hammered. Maybe Vegas will expose him, until someone does I will maintain he is good both by the eye test and his great underlying numbers.
 

Melvin

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MDZ has been coughing up the puck regularly. Him and Biega are a bit of a tire fire while Pouliot and Biega were very good together. Basically 5 on 5 Pouliot has taken over MDZ role though on right side. The coach has promoted Pouliot above MDZ at 5 on 5 and the pp for good reason. Edler and Pouliot are our top pair. Though Guddy and Hutton have been used for the hardest minutes. It is simple who is our top line Horvat's or Sutter's? I would say Horvat's even though Sutter's line plays tougher minutes. We will see but I do not see anyone arguing that Pouliot is not playing well. Just a lot of weak explanations of why he is playing well. Sheltered minutes calming inflence of Biega etc. I am going with he is playing well because he is good until proven otherwise. I have been expecting him to falter everygame it has not happened even when the team was hammered. Maybe Vegas will expose him, until someone does I will maintain he is good both by the eye test and his great underlying numbers.

There has not been a single person claiming that he is not playing well. Not one.

There are simply some people arguing against the likes of you claiming he's been the best D-man on the team and VanJack repeatedly comparing him to Drew freaking Doughty. We're just saying "hey, let's calm it down a bit and recognize that even in the last game our "best defenseman" played 5th most at even strength and didn't kill penalties."

This is the last time I will be responding to one of your posts, so do not bother to reply.
 

vancityluongo

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Pouliot has on ice IQ issues? Where does that come from? Biega can not take a pass or give a pass which leads to chaos. He hits like a truck, joins the rush, always competes and rarely gets beat in battles. However that is not calming Tanev is calming as he makes simple plays at a high percentage. Pouliot has been a calming inflence by completing higher skilled plays. Hutton, MDZ, Gudbranson all give the puck away more than Pouliot. What calms the team is having control of the puck in the offensive and neutral zones.

From the simple reasoning that an 8th overall pick who was given every chance in his original organization to succeed couldn't crack a oft-injured d-corps? Effort and compete play into that equation too, but part of it was also that he often was out of position and unaware of what was going on. Let's look at the first page of a thread inquiring about him on the Pens forum. This is pre-trade btw, so there's no hindsight factor.

Little bit of A, little of B. He doesn't have the skating to mask his other issues and he's not a well rounded/smart enough player like Maatta is to compensate for that.

I have heard that he has some issues that need to be addressed regarding maturity. He has one more shot at this, and he needs to get his head out of his a_ _.

I'm sure this thread will go badly but as one of the people who thinks he's probabiy a bust. You can talk about his drive being questionable but I think it's a bad combination of things. He's not fast enough to make up for some deficiencies, I think his hockey IQ is questionable at this point and he's a lackadaisical player especially in the D zone... a D zone that he seems generally quite confused by. His offensive game isn't currently translating to the NHL to make up for other issues. I'd say he's regressed offensively and in transition since his debut under Johnston as well. Maybe confidence, maybe struggling with the system, maybe there was some screwup in trying to make him better defensively. Probably all of the above.

It's a bad combination of things and I don't think he's endeared himself to Sullivan. Sullivan has been pretty damn great abut handling young players, too.

For some time I thought Pouliot was simply lazy, resting on his great junior career and expecting NHL success to come easily. Maybe that was the case but I think it's no longer the reason for his failures. He's gotten enough tough reality checks by now that he has had to know about the hard work it takes. And he really did a lot of off-season training last summer and came to camp in great shape. I think he's gotten that message.

IMO the real problem emerging now is a lack of hockey sense. He seems unable to read the game - and react to it - at NHL speed. Thus he makes mistakes, gets flustered and loses confidence and becomes even more passive. His skillset requires him to carry the puck a lot and drive the offense but instead he looks timid and lost now. He had a decent late-season run in the AHL but I doubt he'll ever fully recover his game to make it in Pittsburgh. Might be best for him if he gets traded or claimed off waivers and gets a fresh start somewhere else.

I stated pretty clearly that I wasn't referring to Biega as being poised like Tanev, but calming in that he's a veteran player with a firm understanding of his own strengths and limitations. From my observations, young players like Hutton last year and Pouliot this year have played well with Biega because he communicates well with his partners so they know exactly what they should be doing on the ice. This is very different from Hutton, MDZ, Stecher, and especially Gudbranson, who seem to often just go with gut plays, and as a result lose their check, make an errant move without communicating for cover, etc. No different than why Jake has meshed with the Sedins - he's been given a direct task of what to do, so he doesn't have to think about it. He can just play according to his skillset, which is to forecheck hard and retrieve pucks.

Similarly for Pouliot, he's been tasked with moving the puck. There is definitely a need for this, and in the minutes he's played he's done well. But just as I'd be wary to dub Jake as having shaken off the bust label based on this season, I'm hesitant to proclaim Pouliot as a potential top-4 guy until he can start holding his head above water in all situations rather than just focusing on one aspect of the game that his skillset is tailored to succeed in. That doesn't mean he needs to play 5+ PK minutes a game or start blocking 200 shots a year. It just means that I want to see him play reasonable minutes in non-ideal situations.
 
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Cupless44

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When did hockey only become about "tough minutes" and ES play? Last time I looked the power play has become more important than ever in the age of parity. If you are selected to play on the first power play unit those minutes don't count? One of the biggest problems in Canuck history is rarely having defencemen who can actually play the point. Pouliot has some skills in this area and is improving each week. That has value.
 

Cupless44

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And lets be clear...the whole Pouliot debate did not start to determine what kinds of minutes he is playing...it started because some here were freaking out about the cost of a 4th round draft pick and claiming Pouliot was an AHL calibre player. Now that he has exceeded that claim, the goalposts have moved to what kind of minutes he is doing well at.
 

MS

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From today's Province Gameday "The Canucks plan to weather the loss of Chris Tanev by leaning on an Alex Edler-Derrick Pouliot pairing."

Doesnt sound like Pouliot is on the bottom pairing or getting sheltered minutes

Pouliot is getting #6 minutes (12-13 ES minutes + 3 minutes/game of PP time) with ~70% offensive zone starts. That's about as sheltered as it gets without physically benching the player for long stretches.

The players they're actually leaning on are Hutton and Del Zotto, who are playing the most/heaviest minutes on the team.
 

Cupless44

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Pouliot is getting #6 minutes (12-13 ES minutes + 3 minutes/game of PP time) with ~70% offensive zone starts. That's about as sheltered as it gets without physically benching the player for long stretches.

The players they're actually leaning on are Hutton and Del Zotto, who are playing the most/heaviest minutes on the team.

That's great, and if he keeps improving like he has every week, making great passes, getting assists, playing the point on the first powerplay...not only will his overall minutes increase, he will well justify the 4th round pick and the one million a year he costs.

Not sure if you have noticed, but in those heavy minutes Del Zotto is playing, he is becoming a bit of a turnover machine in his own zone. Let's see how he holds up as the season progresses because he is basically the same as Pouliot, a first round pick who has has an inconsistent career and not lived up to his draft position.
 

Catamarca Livin

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He is doing OK in the softest minutes on D. MDZ and Hutton are playing much more difficult roles. This shouldn't be too hard to understand.

They are playing poorly with these roles our pk has been terrible so not being on it should be considered a positive, right. To me it is better to be good at your role even if it slightly lesser than be bad at your larger role. Pouliot good at his role and h8s role expanding. MDZ bad at his role role decreasing. Maybe we will find that Pouliot folds under larger role but that should not be assumed.
 

vancityluongo

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Read KB's last post.

"There has not been a single person claiming that he is not playing well. Not one.

There are simply some people arguing against the likes of you claiming he's been the best D-man on the team and VanJack repeatedly comparing him to Drew freaking Doughty. We're just saying "hey, let's calm it down a bit and recognize that even in the last game our "best defenseman" played 5th most at even strength and didn't kill penalties.""

Pouliot is playing well for his role. Given expectations when the trade is made, he is doing well. This thread is active because people felt the need to backpat after 15 games, which is fine. The responses started happening with claims of top-4, best defenseman on the team and Drew Doughty, in that order. Anyone claiming any of those things is shifting the goal posts to an unreasonable and unfair level. Because expectations are currently being met, this is legitimately a time where "wait and see" applies. If he surpasses his current level of play, great. If he plateaus and is simply what he has been - a reasonable bottom pairing defenseman playing a certain, needed role, and delivering adequate results - cool. If he regresses from here and cannot maintain this level - the trade discussion of whether it was worth moving a 4th is once again substantive.
 

Catamarca Livin

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There has not been a single person claiming that he is not playing well. Not one.

There are simply some people arguing against the likes of you claiming he's been the best D-man on the team and VanJack repeatedly comparing him to Drew freaking Doughty. We're just saying "hey, let's calm it down a bit and recognize that even in the last game our "best defenseman" played 5th most at even strength and didn't kill penalties."

This is the last time I will be responding to one of your posts, so do not bother to reply.

Basically I have won you over to my position that Pouliot has been playing his role better than anyone. No need for you to reply. Welcome to the fan club!
 
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