Confirmed with Link: Derrick Pouliot's here because reasons. Part 1. (#859)

[drax0s]

I've actually liked his passing a lot from what I've seen of him, but his skating seems like it definitely needs work. He also seems super tentative, which is likely confidence.

 

[drax0s]

A 2nd round pick is not “complete crap”. Tbh it’s debatable if you could get a 2nd back for Baertschi today and he’s actually improved from the time of the trade.

Justin Schultz got a 3rd round pick at the TDL the year he was an absolute disaster for the Oilers. Baertschi would easily garner a 2nd, IMO. Hell, UFA Lee Stempniak got a 2nd and a 4th.

 

[iceburg]

Semi impressed with Pouliot. Could stick with the team long term.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Really? Harder to armchair QB? You're likening the pressures of running a multimillion dollar business to critiquing from a hockey message board? Derided over and over again for years? You're being melodramatic here, you can basically spew any nonsense you want on here and if repeated often enough, before long you'll get a following that regards it as fact. There's no pressure at all except as a figment of your imagination. Benning's boss holds his feet to the fire. Have you and others here taken it upon yourself to hold Benning accountable because the press isn't doing it's job? Very noble.


Of course fans are limited in the information they have, that's why a lot of posts are nothing but speculation at best and bs at worst.

Not going to get into arguing about MS and his high 'hit' frequency over the years.

Glad that we agree on Pouliot. I like what I've seen so far.

Speculation at best? Is that what you call it when a poster makes a call pre-draft (with research and reasons why included). Then sticks to that same call over years of development, only to see his/her pick become better than the pick chosen by Benning? Speculation? It's not wonder you see no value in posts here. Even when someone is proven right, you can dismiss the content of their argument as mere speculation, despite the homework involved.

Benning makes a pick, it's on his record. A poster here makes a pick, it's on his/her record. Both are accountable, but obviously in different ways. When you dismiss an opinion here outright because it's not sourced from a multi-million dollar business, you're actually dismissing it for reasons outside the logic of the opinion itself, which is a mistake.

It does not matter where the opinion comes from. What matters is the rationale and conclusion of the opinion. The accuracy of the opinion. Benning has made moves and has often provided terrible rationale for those moves. He's made odd picks as well. Certain posters here have critiqued those moves and those picks and have been proven right to do so. Should their opinion still be dismissed? No. Does it matter that Benning is an NHL GM even though he is still proven to be inferior (in his thinking) to those same posters, radio hosts and bloggers? No. What makes you hold him so high when his record has been blatantly terrible? Pressure? Is that all?

If the key difference is pressure, then I will contend that the 30 other GMs feel a similar pressure. Yet, some GMs are held in the highest esteem, while Benning is treated as a league-wide joke. Even Ferraro rips into what Benning is doing on a daily basis.

Benning is fallible. Like any other human being. He can make mistakes... and he's made a lot of them.

 

[CanaFan]

Justin Schultz got a 3rd round pick at the TDL the year he was an absolute disaster for the Oilers. Baertschi would easily garner a 2nd, IMO. Hell, UFA Lee Stempniak got a 2nd and a 4th.

That mostly shows what an overpayment a 2nd for Baertschi was at the time. But you’re right, he could probably fetch a 2nd now even though he hasn’t put up numbers as good as Stempniak when he was dealt to the Bruins.

 

[F A N]

I disagree with the statement in bold. A "serviceable regular" can be had on a bottom-pairing salary, or be claimed off of waivers. Wiercioch can be a serviceable regular. He can be used as a #6 Dman. Biega can be argued to be a serviceable regular. If that's the absolute height Pouliot is able to achieve, then that trade is most definitely not a "win". It would be the equivalent of paying a 4th round pick for a bottom pairing Dman at the deadline -- and few tend to think of those trades as good value deals.

Times have changed. A "bottom pairing" Dman who is a regular in your lineup is worth a 4th round pick, especially at the deadline. Actually, it was worth a 4th round pick in years past. We acquired Andrew Alberts for a 3rd. I think that was a good trade at the time and still do now. I think the term "serviceable" is a bit ambiguous. What I mean is a Dman who isn't a guy you regularly scratch (i.e. not a fringe NHL Dman who will pass through waivers easily).

On 20 points vs 25 points: You are effectively arguing for no reason. A 5 point variance over an 82 game sample is more attributable to luck than innate ability. It's not a hill to die on.

You are wrong. It has more to do with the team in front of the Dman. MS specifically mentioned that in the context of 2nd unit PP time. And as I asked, which Canucks' Dmen put up 25 points last season? The answer is zero. Not Edler. Not Stecher. Not Hutton. Were they all unlucky? And if those guys couldn't get 25 points given their playing time, expecting Pouliot to put up 25 points when you think he is no more than a bottom pairing Dman is out of whack expectations. And when was the last time there were 2 Dmen who put up 25 points or more? 2013-2014 season. At the end of the day, he should produce more offensively than a defensive Dman given the same minutes and PP time. But to expect him to produce more offensively in lesser minutes than guys you consider to be better? That's just unreasonable.

Also, if you add 5 points to Gudbranson's career high totals he would have 18 points. That matches or beats Tanev's totals in all but one season. You think a 5 point variance is nothing, but on average it's actually a pretty big deal especially if you factor limited minutes on a team that isn't top of the league in scoring.

Pouliot being serviceable doesn’t make this a win. You can get serviceable defenseman for free off of waivers.

You can. But the odds of getting a top 6 forward or top 4 Dman out of a 4th round pick is under 5%. On average, there is like a 90% chance of a 4th round pick being worse than a 4th line forward.

http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131

I'm not 'boasting' and never bring up my track record here except when someone says 'yeah, you don't know what you're talking about because you were wrong on Granlund!' or something like that. And when someone does, yeah, I'm going to defend myself.

Might want to refresh your memory. You frequently bring up your track record. That's fine. You can boast all you want. For me, being wrong doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about. I am of the opinion that you clearly do. You see what you see. I also think Benning is a better scout than you are but that's another discussion altogether.

You're pointlessly arguing semantics about a +/- 5 points projection because you don't like me.

No. You argued that Pouliot needs to put up 25 points in order for the trade to be a win when last season no Dman on the Canucks put up 25 points. The year before only 1. The year before that? Only 1. The year before that? Guess what? Only 1. So in the last 4 seasons, only one Dman put up 25 points or more on the Canucks on average. Yet you expect Pouliot to put up 25 points in 3rd pairing minutes with 2nd unit PP time without the need for this team to be one of the top offensive teams and or the scoring increasing.

I think I made good points that you cannot counter. If you think that's pointlessly arguing semantics, then so be it.

 

[Ryp37]

[MOD] don't make it personal

People were impressed with Pouliot? He looked terrible to me. Got Stecher rocked with an ill advised pass, completely killed a play by missing a saucer pass. Really don't see a big difference in Weircioch and him that's worth a 4th except #pedigree

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

People were impressed with Pouliot? He looked terrible to me. Got Stecher rocked with an ill advised pass, completely killed a play by missing a saucer pass. Really don't see a big difference in Weircioch and him that's worth a 4th except #pedigree

It looked like he kind of rolled his shoulders and deked Stecher out on that play. It was weird. Only Poo could tell you what he was doing there. I think I prefer having Weircioch around in the 7-8 hole. The 4th round pick was just Jimmy being Jimmy.

 

[Hit the post]

Times have changed. A "bottom pairing" Dman who is a regular in your lineup is worth a 4th round pick, especially at the deadline. Actually, it was worth a 4th round pick in years past. We acquired Andrew Alberts for a 3rd. I think that was a good trade at the time and still do now. I think the term "serviceable" is a bit ambiguous.

It certainly is an improvement for trading for a #5 guy for a recently drafted 1st round pick + high 2nd round pick.

 

[MS]

Might want to refresh your memory. You frequently bring up your track record. That's fine. You can boast all you want. For me, being wrong doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about. I am of the opinion that you clearly do. You see what you see. I also think Benning is a better scout than you are but that's another discussion altogether.

I ended up bringing it up more than I'd like because of these stupid 'WELL YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT GRANLUND SO YOU'LL BE WRONG ABOUT THIS!' posts and it's really the only way to respond.

If Benning is such a good scout, why is his success ratio so laughably terrible?

No. You argued that Pouliot needs to put up 25 points in order for the trade to be a win when last season no Dman on the Canucks put up 25 points. The year before only 1. The year before that? Only 1. The year before that? Guess what? Only 1. So in the last 4 seasons, only one Dman put up 25 points or more on the Canucks on average. Yet you expect Pouliot to put up 25 points in 3rd pairing minutes with 2nd unit PP time without the need for this team to be one of the top offensive teams and or the scoring increasing.

I think I made good points that you cannot counter. If you think that's pointlessly arguing semantics, then so be it.

First off, when I say '25 points' that's obviously pro-rated on 82 GP. And 2 players in 16-17, 2 players in 15-16, and 3 players in 14-15 scored on that rate, even for this terrible offensive team. Including Yannick Weber in the same role.

I was typing quickly and 25 points may have a been a little high, with 20-25 points being a more accurate number for an otherwise accurate statement. If you want to claim that as a 'win', go for it. You got me.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Yeah, was going to say, we've had a few #5-6 defenseman who scored at a roughly 25 point pace in recent years — Troy Stecher last season and Yannick Weber in 2014-'15. If Pouliot could basically replicate either of those performances, it'd be a huge jump in his development from where he is now and something we should be happy with. And it'd at least make the trade a decent one, if not exactly a world-beater (given that we got those other two players for free).

For now Pouliot doesn't look on track to do that, though it's a little hard to assess. Green seems to have him playing such a safe game that it's tough to get a read on his offensive skills.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Fan you seem like the type who likes the sound of his own voice

People were impressed with Pouliot? He looked terrible to me. Got Stecher rocked with an ill advised pass, completely killed a play by missing a saucer pass. Really don't see a big difference in Weircioch and him that's worth a 4th except #pedigree

Which Dman on the Canucks looked impressive to you in the Boston loss..?

 

[MS]

Which Dman on the Canucks looked impressive to you in the Boston loss..?

Tanev was good although maybe not as good as usual and Stecher's last 40 minutes were his best hockey this season.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Tanev was good although maybe not as good as usual and Stecher's last 40 minutes were his best hockey this season.

Really,...?..I thought Tanev was equally as bad as Hutton when the PK imploded on the major to Guddy...Anyway,more to the point from the other poster,I don't think you single out Pouliot as having a terrible game (considering his circumstances,he's played a solid game).

 

[MS]

Really,...?..I thought Tanev was equally as bad as Hutton when the PK imploded on the major to Guddy...Anyway,more to the point from the other poster,I don't think you single out Pouliot as having a terrible game (considering his circumstances,he's played a solid game).

Tanev was on the ice for only 1 of the 4 PP goals and wasn't directly responsible for it.

As I said in the GDT, I don't think Pouliot was 'terrible' but he isn't showing any flashes of real skill or upside and looks like a slower Yannick Weber to me so far.

 

[Ryp37]

Really,...?..I thought Tanev was equally as bad as Hutton when the PK imploded on the major to Guddy...Anyway,more to the point from the other poster,I don't think you single out Pouliot as having a terrible game (considering his circumstances,he's played a solid game).

I wasn't singling him out, I was responding to the poster who liked his game

 

[Bleach Clean]

Times have changed. A "bottom pairing" Dman who is a regular in your lineup is worth a 4th round pick, especially at the deadline. Actually, it was worth a 4th round pick in years past. We acquired Andrew Alberts for a 3rd. I think that was a good trade at the time and still do now. I think the term "serviceable" is a bit ambiguous. What I mean is a Dman who isn't a guy you regularly scratch (i.e. not a fringe NHL Dman who will pass through waivers easily).

Times haven't changed relative value. You could argue that Benning has changed expectations to the point where people are accepting mediocre moves as good moves, but I know you would not do that...

Deadline prices are inflated. You know that don't you?

Even a bottom pair Dman that plays regularly is not worth a pick in most cases. This type of player can still be had on waivers on occasion. This type of player can be garnered in minor hockey deals. This type can be signed every offseason. This is why you don't pay picks for them.

 

[B-rock]

Pouliot looks like a bit of a tire fire to me in his own end. Against Buffalo he made 2 terrible plays, that led to high scoring chances...1 may have even led to a goal, can't remember.

He's like a Cam Barker back there. Doesn't have a clue and is afraid to get hit.

 

[VanJack]

I've actually been mildly impressed with Pouliot.....plays mostly low-event hockey.....a few miscues but it's not like Del Zotto and Hutton haven't done a few face-plants as well.....seems to have decent wheels and good vision on the ice.....not really seeing the comparisons to Can Barker who was basically a pylon.

It's too bad they can't squeeze more offense out of him, but at 23 he could still develop it, based on his junior pedigree. It's just unfortunate that not a single Caunck d-man has a point shot....I mean they're firing mostly muffins out there. Really hurts the pp.

 

[IKEA]

Man, was this kid supposed to be a star or what (back in the day). Wanted him as a centre piece (aside the first round pick) from the Pens during the Kelser-trade saga.

As with the above posts - pedigree, eh? When we value draft picks and draftees over well established players. Not all junior players pan out as they are supposed to. On other posts, some of us envision players in the pipe line as regulars up and down the line-up. If 1/3 of 'em make it, I would call it a relative success.

 

[F A N]

I ended up bringing it up more than I'd like because of these stupid 'WELL YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT GRANLUND SO YOU'LL BE WRONG ABOUT THIS!' posts and it's really the only way to respond.

No there are other ways to respond. You can state the reasons why you think that way about the player rather than appeal to and boast about what you think to be a fine record. Just saying...

Times haven't changed relative value. You could argue that Benning has changed expectations to the point where people are accepting mediocre moves as good moves, but I know you would not do that...

But are you judging things based on relative value?

Deadline prices are inflated. You know that don't you?

Even a bottom pair Dman that plays regularly is not worth a pick in most cases.

But that's just reflects the value YOU place. We've been through this before. What YOU think doesn't mean it's objective. An opinion is an opinion. Don't pass it off as some objective thing unless it's supported by facts.

Last season, the Penguins traded 4th round picks for Corrado and Streit. The year before, Colorado traded a 3rd for Eric Gelinas. John-Michael Liles got more than 3rd. You can argue that these aren't good trades all you want. It doesn't change the fact that that's market value. If you want the player you pay market price for him.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Give Pouliot ten games and see where he is. Canucks are going through a process right now and it isn't ideal for new guys. A body of work in this system is more useful.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Pouliot looks like a bit of a tire fire to me in his own end. Against Buffalo he made 2 terrible plays, that led to high scoring chances...1 may have even led to a goal, can't remember.

He's like a Cam Barker back there. Doesn't have a clue and is afraid to get hit.

i didn't see the whole game but he made one play on the power play getting passed by the play in the neutral zone that was all world terrible skating. he was going to be beaten wide so he tried to turn and the entire play passed him. if hutton hadn't been coming back hard it would have been a 2-0.

i really see nothing bad about him except his skating and especially his first steps.

 

[VanJack]

Pouliot reminds me of another former Portland WinterHawk who arrived in VanCity with his confidence at a low ebb--Sven Baertschi.....his coach in Portland was Travis Green, who believed in him and he eventually came out of his shell.....predicting Green will bring out the best of Pouliot....just not sure of exactly what that untapped potential is.

 

[MS]

Will give him a longer run of games before definitively calling this trade terrible but right now it really doesn't look good.

We knew he was going to be bad defensively and after kind of holding his own in sheltered minutes (71% offensive zone starts!) in his first couple games, he's been a scrambly mess for his last few. But whatever, if he has talent you can work with that maybe.

But he's just shown nothing so far in terms of actual talent. He's a below-average skater, is consistently fumbly with the puck in his own zone and not showing any real outlet passing ability, and hasn't shown an plus shot or an ability to use it. He kind of plays an offensive style but I haven't seen a play from him showing any sort of real skill or potential in 5 games. Just looks like a middling AHL defender, or a crappier, slower version of Yannick Weber.