Player Discussion Derrick Pouliot, Pt. II: Will not be qualified (again)

Paulinvancouver

Gas station in Carbondale did not have fresh yams!
Dec 19, 2015
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I feel like I'm repeating myself and I feel like you're trying to talk people to death with boring and obtuse rhetoric.

I'll just pick one piece out of here rather than re-hash the rest of it.

He was caught in a numbers game with the Stanley Cup champions, which makes him a fringe player for them. But they may have been loathe to let him go. They may or may not have been putting him waivers. They may or may not have been asking for a certain asset from several teams.
You have zero idea because you weren't in their front office, nor were you in the front office of the Colorado Avalanche, Vancouver Canucks or any other NHL team who may have had Pouliot on their radar.

You act like all of these players roll off an assembly line. They are identical interchangable assets. Didn't get the one you want? No worries, there's another one right over there.
Clearly any of the defencemen that were on waivers around that time would have come to Vancouver and done the exact same things that Pouliot has done.

Rubbish. You have zero idea how anybody else viewed him. Zero. Yet you speak in absolutes.

Fact. Derek did not roll off the D-Robot Model E45HJ assembly line. The Vancouver Canucks have apparently been following this guy for several seasons and have his ex-junior coach running their bench.
Argue about the Vey/Pedan/Larsson/Etem deals if it'll make you happy, but this deal looks like a smart and well-informed move that is working out well.
I really like this post.
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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Has anyone answered my question of when hockey trades were evaluated based solely on perceived value at the time of the trade?

As soon as you find someone who is doing that, let us know. Lest this straw man be propped up in every trade thread by yourself.
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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Has anyone answered my question of when hockey trades were evaluated based solely on perceived value at the time of the trade?
They should not be evaluated purely based on the perceived value at the time of the trade OR purely on net outcome of the trade, IMO. Both ways of looking at it are deeply flawed.
 
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F A N

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They should not be evaluated purely based on the perceived value at the time of the trade OR purely on net outcome of the trade, IMO. Both ways of looking at it are deeply flawed.

You can say everyone's evaluation is flawed based on incomplete information. Some posters here talk about the process and conclude it's a bad trade based on their own perceived notions of value. They know very little of the process yet they push their conclusions as if it's conclusive rather than speculative. But it's easier to see the results.

This is a results oriented business. At some point you got to say that a team won the trade based on the results like Brian Burke admitted that Boston won the Kessel trade.

Speaking of Brian Burke, the story of how the Canucks ended up drafting the Sedins have been rehashed. Burke could have ended up making all those moves without ending up with the Sedins. I don't see anyone here complaining about "the process".

Again, the facts are the Canucks have targeted Pouliot for a while. Benning came of and said that he think it's worth the gamble. Some posters here equate their disagreement with the process" with management incompetence. They clearly saw something in Pouliot that they believe was worth the assets given up. There has been zero evidence provided that this management treat didn't evaluate the trade fully before making the deal.
 
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Shareefruck

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You can say everyone's evaluation is flawed based on incomplete information. Some posters here talk about the process and conclude it's a bad trade based on their own perceived notions of value. They know very little of the process yet they push their conclusions as if it's conclusive rather than speculative. But it's easier to see the results.

This is a results oriented business. At some point you got to say that a team won the trade based on the results like Brian Burke admitted that Boston won the Kessel trade.

Speaking of Brian Burke, the story of how the Canucks ended up drafting the Sedins have been rehashed. Burke could have ended up making all those moves without ending up with the Sedins. I don't see anyone here complaining about "the process".

Again, the facts are the Canucks have targeted Pouliot for a while. Benning came of and said that he think it's worth the gamble. Some posters here equate their disagreement with the process" with management incompetence. They clearly saw something in Pouliot that they believe was worth the assets given up. There has been zero evidence provided that this management treat didn't evaluate the trade fully before making the deal.
You're projecting a lot of things that you don't like about specific arguments that have nothing to do with the truth of my comment that you're responding to. I'm not defending how absolutely people treat their opinions about trades like infallible fact.

However, I often hear this line of reasoning favoring looking purely at results in a trade and I don't think it holds up.

First, we should be able to agree that in a perfect world where we know the motivations and circumstances of every trade, the conditions and reasoning behind a trade are equally important as the net outcome. We know that this is true by looking at unambiguous extreme cases-- It would not be a a good trade to give up a highly touted blue-chip first rounder w/ little reason for concern for Michael Chaput, even if the outcome is that Chaput plays NHL games and the 1st rounder busts. Both are massively important factors. To determine whether a trade is good or not, it's naturally a tug-of-war between the two.

In reality, we don't have full access to all of this information, true. The outcome of the trade is objectively undeniable (well, assuming that our eye tests and ability to assess stats agree), true. We can know some things about the conditions of the trade, but we can't know everything, which means that we can never be 100% certain/accurate about its effect, true. So it's just a question of what we do with this information.

It doesn't make sense to say "Well, we can't be 100% certain about the circumstances/reasoning behind the trade, so lets throw it out of consideration" or "Well, the outcome is the only thing we're certain about, so let's assume that its correlation with a good trade is 100%." It also makes no sense to suggest that we know NOTHING about the circumstances of the trade, there's no precedence, and that any reasoning we apply regarding it might as well be random.

It makes a lot more sense to acknowledge the importance of both factors, accept the outcome's undeniable impact on the trade, approximate the conditions and reasoning behind the trade as best as we can, have an opinion about it that can be scrutinized, and understand that our final conclusion cannot be absolute and is always going to be an opinion (some more valid than others). This is true whether we lean harder towards believing the objective outcome's leanings or not. The outcome doesn't transform into a bigger piece of what makes up a good trade just because it's the portion that happens to be unambiguous. Any opinion that suggests that it tells the full story is fundamentally broken.

And the fact that it's a results-oriented business isn't a reason to draw conclusions in the manner that doesn't make sense over a manner that does.
 
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krutovsdonut

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It makes a lot more sense to acknowledge the importance of both factors, accept the outcome's undeniable impact on the trade, approximate the conditions and reasoning behind the trade as best as we can, have an opinion about it that can be scrutinized, and understand that our final conclusion cannot be absolute and is always going to be an opinion (some more valid than others). This is true whether we lean harder towards believing the objective outcome's leanings or not. The outcome doesn't transform into a bigger piece of what makes up a good trade just because it's the portion that happens to be unambiguous. Any opinion that suggests that it tells the full story is fundamentally broken.

the problem is people make up endless shaded narratives suiting their biases and repeat them over and over until they or other people mistaken them for facts. then these narratives are repeated in the context of evaluations of other event to support drawing further negative inferences creating a house of cards of fake evaluations.

i will add parenthetically, you seem obsessed with trying to rationalize holding very strong "interim" opinions on events instead of living in the world we live in where we do not know what we do not know, and if we guess, we say so, and admit the frailties of the guess. my view is that your approach leads to poor analysis and reinforcement of extreme viewpoints.
 
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Wo Yorfat

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docbenton

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As soon as you find someone who is doing that, let us know. Lest this straw man be propped up in every trade thread by yourself.

His perceived value at the time of the trade was that of a elite prospect, in Vancouver's eyes, though with doubts attached. They acquired him and turned out the elite qualities triumphed over the doubts.
 
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Shareefruck

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the problem is people make up endless shaded narratives suiting their biases and repeat them over and over until they or other people mistaken them for facts. then these narratives are repeated in the context of evaluations of other event to support drawing further negative inferences creating a house of cards of fake evaluations.

i will add parenthetically, you seem obsessed with trying to rationalize holding very strong "interim" opinions on events instead of living in the world we live in where we do not know what we do not know, and if we guess, we say so, and admit the frailties of the guess. my view is that your approach leads to poor analysis and reinforcement of extreme viewpoints.
Admitting that it's an opinion is already admitting uncertainty in what is being guessed. Evidence of bias when it exists should be scrutinized, sure, but I think that making strongly reasoned and informed guesses are the best that we can do if we want to make an assessment at all. When a huge portion of the completed picture is not made up of objectively quantifiable certainties to begin with, it does a far greater disservice to the argument to treat the few certainties that exist like they're fully representative of the truth, IMO.

So, sure you could say that the outcome of the trade is the only aspect of it that is objectively certain, but acknowledging that doesn't give any further credence to the conclusion that the outcome of the trade alone determines how worthwhile it is.

For me it comes down to the difference between drawing uncertain but somewhat likely or at least reasonable conclusions based on appropriate criteria and drawing conclusions based on incomplete criteria. Neither will give you a certain answer, but the former makes a lot more sense to me than the latter. The former is subject to possible bias, but the latter is built on broken rationale.
 
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drax0s

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Admitting that it's an opinion is already admitting uncertainty in what is being guessed. Evidence of bias when it exists should be scrutinized, sure, but I think that making strongly reasoned and informed guesses are the best that we can do if we want to make an assessment at all. When a huge portion of the completed picture is not made up of objectively quantifiable certainties to begin with, it does a far greater disservice to the argument to treat the few certainties that exist like they're fully representative of the truth, IMO.

So, sure you could say that the outcome of the trade is the only aspect of it that is objectively certain, but acknowledging that doesn't give any further credence to the conclusion that the outcome of the trade alone determines how worthwhile it is.

For me it comes down to the difference between drawing uncertain but somewhat likely or at least reasonable conclusions based on appropriate criteria and drawing conclusions based on incomplete criteria. Neither will give you a certain answer, but the former makes a lot more sense to me than the latter. The former is subject to possible bias, but the latter is built on broken rationale.
You've typed almost a full novel and haven't said anything about whether you like the trade or not. Are you just here to argue?
 
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Shareefruck

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You've typed almost a full novel and haven't said anything about whether you like the trade or not. Are you just here to argue?
And? Where are you getting that I'm supposed to?

I'm just disagreeing with certain reasoning that was put forth and that seems to be commonly accepted by people. How I feel about the trade is irrelevant to that.

I'm kind of lukewarm about the trade. I don't like the principle behind these types of trades, but all things considered, this isn't one of the egregiously bad ones, and the jury's still out on whether or not Pouliot can make it worthwhile rather than more of the same.
 
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skyo

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Sep 22, 2013
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It absolutely makes a difference what the GM terms as his long-term strategy. Absolutely. I'm surprised that you think it doesn't. It's the backdrop by which all of his moves are judged. It's the context. What do you think the media has been hounding them about from the initial day to when Linden fumbled out his answer? Why do you think he's been so reluctant to answer? It's because messaging matters when selling a product.

If Linden messages a rebuild, fans expect moves akin to a rebuild. Novel concept, I know, but they knew they were never going to follow that path. Hence, the hesitation. I mean it's plain to see/hear. They've been terrible in their messaging and objective statements. The twitter account of "Lindenning" is having a field day over exactly this aspect of their tenure.

The best teams are NOT transparent - nor should portray their moves to the world/investors/nor "insiders"....this should be obvious...why be transparent to anyone? especially if you want to be competitive, I think you should relax a bit on what anyone says in a sneaky market, especially pro sports.
 

racerjoe

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Jun 3, 2012
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Yeah exactly like when JB dealt JG for a pick, Lack for two picks, KB for a 2nd, Burrows and Hansen for prospects even though most of em had NTC's.

There is only one trade you mentioned here that was good.

The Garisson trade was less than market value after another failed trade attempt. While I didn't mind the idea of the trade, the trade then the trade of that asset for Vey was terrible. The Lack trade, was less than half what the next goalie traded got. Plus we now know he turned down a top 10 pick for Miller. Bieksa was market value... Burrows trade was actually very good. Hansen trade was not very good at all. From retaining salary to value, just not a very good trade.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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You're projecting a lot of things that you don't like about specific arguments that have nothing to do with the truth of my comment that you're responding to. I'm not defending how absolutely people treat their opinions about trades like infallible fact.

However, I often hear this line of reasoning favoring looking purely at results in a trade and I don't think it holds up.

How am I projecting a lot of things? Please back up your accusations.

Anyhow, I never said your comment was wrong. Neither did I disagreed with it. But it's a generalized comment that doesn't say much. At least in this thread, the posters you think are looking purely at results in a trade, I think, actually isn't. If they were, they probably would have mentioned that there was dumb luck involved. My point is that posters here who think the Pouliot trade was a good trade didn't just look purely at the results. If you go back to what they thought of the trade at the time, they likely liked the trade and provided reasons as to why they think it's a good trade. In short, most of us who thinks this trade is a good one agreed with the process and see the results in a positive light. This, unfortunately, isn't something some posters understand.

First, we should be able to agree that in a perfect world where we know the motivations and circumstances of every trade, the conditions and reasoning behind a trade are equally important as the net outcome.

Sure

We know that this is true by looking at unambiguous extreme cases-- It would not be a a good trade to give up a highly touted blue-chip first rounder w/ little reason for concern for Michael Chaput, even if the outcome is that Chaput plays NHL games and the 1st rounder busts. Both are massively important factors. To determine whether a trade is good or not, it's naturally a tug-of-war between the two.

Per what you said above, that depends of what motivated you to trade for Chaput don't think you? If you think he's going to develop into a 1C then if he just plays NHL games then no the results aren't there. If you think he can be a serviceable 4C and you trade a blue-chip 1st rounder then of course that's a bad trade. But like I said, there's a difference between disagreeing with the process and management being incompetent. They traded Pedan (who cleared waivers) and a 4th to "gamble" on Pouliot. They clearly suggested that they don't think he's a sure thing but it was worth the gamble. So they see Pouliot developing into a player who is worth more than a 4th round pick and a "prospect" who just cleared waivers. It's the same with the Granlund trade. They think Granlund is an NHL player while Shinkaruk will not be. You can say I am "projecting" all you want but there are plenty of reports that suggest that Benning never liked Shinkaruk and he was shopping him for quite a while. That suggests that if there was a better deal out there he would have taken it. People who don't think it's a good trade to this day just disagreed with the process or hates management.

In reality, we don't have full access to all of this information, true. The outcome of the trade is objectively undeniable (well, assuming that our eye tests and ability to assess stats agree), true. We can know some things about the conditions of the trade, but we can't know everything, which means that we can never be 100% certain/accurate about its effect, true. So it's just a question of what we do with this information.

It doesn't make sense to say "Well, we can't be 100% certain about the circumstances/reasoning behind the trade, so lets throw it out of consideration" or "Well, the outcome is the only thing we're certain about, so let's assume that its correlation with a good trade is 100%." It also makes no sense to suggest that we know NOTHING about the circumstances of the trade, there's no precedence, and that any reasoning we apply regarding it might as well be random.

I don't disagree with the rationale, but again, there is some evidence out there for one to evaluate the process/motivation behind the trade. If you have read my posts here, I have always been mindful of the rationale/motivation behind the trade. So to me, the rationale is there and results are there.

It makes a lot more sense to acknowledge the importance of both factors, accept the outcome's undeniable impact on the trade, approximate the conditions and reasoning behind the trade as best as we can, have an opinion about it that can be scrutinized, and understand that our final conclusion cannot be absolute and is always going to be an opinion (some more valid than others). This is true whether we lean harder towards believing the objective outcome's leanings or not. The outcome doesn't transform into a bigger piece of what makes up a good trade just because it's the portion that happens to be unambiguous. Any opinion that suggests that it tells the full story is fundamentally broken.

And the fact that it's a results-oriented business isn't a reason to draw conclusions in the manner that doesn't make sense over a manner that does.

You're missing my point. My point is that results are easier to be evaluated. The process is harder because we are not privy to the rationale or discussions that took place. Again, there are plenty of reports supporting Benning's comment that the Canucks have targeted Pouliot for a while. Depending on whether you believe there was ownership intervention or not, there are reports that the Kesler to Penguins trade was held up over Gillis' desire to have Pouliot instead of Despres or Dumoulin. Again, it's not like players can't be reevaluated, but given what we know, I think it's fair to conclude or think that the Canucks' scouting staff (which haven't changed a whole lot from Gillis' days) liked Pouliot. And there's the Travis Green connection. There is at least some evidence to suggest that Benning is quite willing to acquire players that his head coach likes/recommends. So to me, there is enough evidence to support that the process is sound in acquiring Pouliot and to me the results are there to call this a good trade thus far.
 

DownGoesMcDavid

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
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Tough game. But still very impressed w. His development.

Cant believe we snagged him for a 4th and a career AHler
 

PG Canuck

Registered User
Mar 29, 2010
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Haha...I knew you would be here to get your licks in...Terrible game by Pouliot,but one game is not indicative of how he's played since he's been a Canuck....Wasn't he the 1st star of the game in the last Canucks win?

He's useless in the defensive zone. Hard to be a defensemen and have that flaw. He won't last here long when we actually try to be good again, along with many useless players.
 

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