Deal On Table: NHL, NHLPA pondering 6-year CBA

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Hockey_Nut99

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Drafting is a very very important part. THE MOST IMPORTANT. What about Free Agency? How many cup winners have been able to go out and "BUY" that last piece to the puzzle?

If the NHL is good where it was at, then how come when I turn on my tv on July 1st and on, all I see are blockbuster signings by Detroit, Colorado, Philly, Dallas, St.Louis etc etc...It's the same thing every single year.
 

AM

Registered User
Nov 22, 2004
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I will be

supremely po'd if the owners buckle and give into the players w/o a competative balance provision.

And I dont see the players suggesting one.

The players just dont understand, the fans in the have not teams do not want to pay NHL money for them to have a cushy meal ticket till they win the lotto and get signed by the rich teams.

Thats the problem with those little fantasys that you go to sleep with at night, its really hard to give them up when someone asks you about them in the light of day.
 

Go Flames Go*

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There will be cost certinanty, Trevor can doo all he wants but in the end we will survive and the cap will makes is much anticpated debut in the NHL.
 

Hockey_Nut99

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I'll be really disappointed if the owners caved. They have been on top this whole lockout. They do need to make some concessions to the players, I agree with that. I don't like this half/half proposed deal. Watch when the teams compete for free agents if a season starts. That will drive up salaries if jokes like John Ferguson Jr and some other GM's are in the running.
 

YellHockey*

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slats432 said:
This is out there. Go read the history of the Edmonton Oilers, Calgary Flames and all the other small market teams that trade away all the players they develop to large markets because they can no longer afford to keep them. Mismanagement?

Yup.

Competitive balance. In the current system every team doesn't have the equal chance to win the cup. At the trade deadline, who loads up? In the offseason, who signs the free agents?

The good teams, not the big market teams or the small market teams but the good teams. When players have a choice they choose teams that have a chance to win it all. Why would they want to go to a mediocre team like Edmonton?

As an Oiler fan or any other fan of a small market team, you go into the season hoping for the playoffs, not a championship.

Just because Edmonton aspires to and accepts mediocrity, doesn't mean that all small markets do. I'm a fan of a small market team and I was realistically hoping for a championship. Tampa isn't a big market and they didn't just hope for a championship, they won one.

In Toronto or NY or Detroit or Dallas or Philly or NJ, you go into every year expecting a long run and hopefully a championship.

When was the last time NY was expecting a long run? Try replacing NY with Ottawa in your statement. It would make more sense.
 

Wetcoaster

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no13matssundin said:
Im surprised no one else noticed this bombshell:

"Goodenow won't be on hand for today's session, but Bettman could be there."

So, hes gone from being "not invited" by the PA pres. to being completely out of the loop now. Gold! :handclap:

What could possibly make you think he is "out of the loop"? Ted Saskin is there along with the NHLPA's outside legal counsel. I am sure Goodenow is getting regular updates and the negotiators are armed with specific parameters of movement.
 

Hockey_Nut99

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Hmm. St Louis has not done squat. They give Weight huge money. They got Tkachuk in FA. Is this a team who can't do anything in the playoffs, yet have an advantage b/c they have a rich owner willing to spend some extra money?

Detroit wouldn't have won their last cup without buying Hasek. They got hatcher too but I don't remember if he played or was injured.

Big money doesn't guarantee cups. It just gives teams huuuge advantages overall.
 
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Wetcoaster

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go kim johnsson said:
Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that either. I just said the owners never said they want a salary cap. I'm sure some creative thinker out there can come up with a cost certainty outline without it being a salary cap.

If walks like duck, quacks like a duck.....
 

se7en*

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BlackRedGold said:
Just because Edmonton aspires to and accepts mediocrity, doesn't mean that all small markets do.

Do you ever think anything you don't say? Kiss Ottawa goodbye if the owners don't get want they want - just ask Yashin and the number of guys who and held out for more $$$ and will continue to do so - and Edmonton doesn't accept mediocrity. I don't know where you got that, but it's a very stupid thing to proclaim, as if fact.

Thanks for proving that PA and their hopeless shills deserve to be painted with a broad stroke of the same crap-based paint.
 

Hockey_Nut99

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Hootchie Cootchie said:
Do you ever think anything you don't say? Kiss Ottawa goodbye if the owners don't get want they want - just ask Yashin and the number of guys who and held out for more $$$ and will continue to do so - and Edmonton doesn't accept mediocrity. I don't know where you got that, but it's a very stupid thing to proclaim, as if fact.

Thanks for proving that PA-shills deserve to be painted with a broad stroke of the same crap-based paint.

I love how people avoid stanley cup winners and talk about the conference finalists when it comes to parity. Then they talk about Tampa when someone says the same teams wint he cup..Hmm lets see.

95-Devils
96-Colorado
97-Detroit
98-Detroit
99-Dallas
00-New Jersey
01-Colorado
02-Detroit
03-New Jersey
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

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Well if anyone does care here is my take on why I dislike the cap. And I honestly hate BOTH Bettman and Goodenow so I am not taking any sides here. A CAP guarentees the owners a profit, and WHY should they be guarenteed a profit? Every team should have their OWN budgets and figure out on their own what makes them money and what does not. And Im not saying the current system is not flawed it is, and I think a luxury tax will make that system more equal, but not SO equal where its just completely ridiculuous. This is someone who preferred the NFL without a cap to the cap that is currently in the NFL today, although you can't even compare the two sports since the NFL has a mega million dollar TV deal and the NHL will be playing their games on TV for free basically. Another thing that peeves me about this "hard" salary cap is that owners like Bill Wirtz will spend the complete MINIMUM, lets say the cap is at 38 mill, he will probably spend 20 million TOPS and be guarenteed a big profit, while not giving a damn whether the team succeeds on the ice or not. Same can be said for Jeremy Jacobs. Everyone complains that the players are greedy, and YES some players are greedy. But I want all of you to compare Hockey players to players in other majour sports. I would say by far NHL players are the most down to earth players and give as much as they can overall compared to any other major sport, and are the least whiney. Also in my mind i think players overall SHOULD make more than their owners since the players are the ones controlling the means of production. Not to say that owners shouldnt make any money at all, but if both sides made money id rather have the players earn more. Well that is my rant Im sure you all stopped reading this since the first couple sentences.
 

Go Flames Go*

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Hockey_Nut99 said:
I love how people avoid stanley cup winners and talk about the conference finalists when it comes to parity. Then they talk about Tampa when someone says the same teams wint he cup..Hmm lets see.

95-Devils
96-Colorado
97-Detroit
98-Detroit
99-Dallas
00-New Jersey
01-Colorado
02-Detroit
03-New Jersey

Where the parity dawg?
 

se7en*

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Yup, I also love that a Senators fan, can't understand the plight of small-markets while they lose to the big, bad, rich Leafs every year. That bit about Edmonton fans aspiring to mediocrity really got me though, it was so mind-numbingly stupid.
 

se7en*

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BlackRedGold said:

How so? Is it mismanagement that they won't pay Doug Weight over $8,000,000? How about Bill Guerin? Curtis Joseph? Where is the money going to from, genius? I'm dying to hear your explanation, so make it snappy.

BlackRedGold said:
The good teams, not the big market teams or the small market teams but the good teams. When players have a choice they choose teams that have a chance to win it all. Why would they want to go to a mediocre team like Edmonton?

Why would they choose the Rangers? Why did Jagr choose the Capitals? Why did Weight choose the Blues? Why did Yashin choose the Islanders? Why did Nedved choose Phoenix? Is it because we aspire for mediocrity? :lol:

BlackRedGold said:
Just because Edmonton aspires to and accepts mediocrity, doesn't mean that all small markets do. I'm a fan of a small market team and I was realistically hoping for a championship. Tampa isn't a big market and they didn't just hope for a championship, they won one.

After almost 10 longs years of suckage - thats goes for Tampa Bay and Ottawa. Were you even a fan then, or did you don the blue-and-white? Is that the only way for small markets to develop a good team? I disagree. Smart drafting and shrewd trades are a bigger part - and being able to keep your core, not see some GM wave $10 million in front of their faces to lure them to a bigger market. That is hardly parity. Is it Edmontons fault that they cant pay $30 mil for 3 players? Is it Ottawa's fault that they'll soon have to ship their stars off under the old CBA? How will Tampa retain their core when the players demand big money? Ottawa?
 

YellHockey*

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Hootchie Cootchie said:
Kiss Ottawa goodbye if the owners don't get want they want - just ask Yashin and the number of guys who and held out for more $$$ and will continue to do so

Yashin and who else? What other guys have held out on the Senators?

If you hadn't noticed Daniel Alfredsson signed a long term deal with Ottawa instead of becoming an unrestricted free agent.

- and Edmonton doesn't accept mediocrity. I don't know where you got that, but it's a very stupid thing to proclaim, as if fact.

I thought you said that Oiler fans hope their team makes the playoffs, not win the championship. Considering your season successful if it finishes in the middle of the pack is accepting mediocrity.

In Ottawa there are cries to fire the coach and trade half the team when the team doesn't come close to the Cup. Apparently, all is good in Edmonton if the team makes the playoffs. That's accepting mediocrity.
 

fan mao rong

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PeterSidorkiewicz said:
Another thing that peeves me about this "hard" salary cap is that owners like Bill Wirtz will spend the complete MINIMUM, lets say the cap is at 38 mill, he will probably spend 20 million TOPS and be guarenteed a big profit, while not giving a damn whether the team succeeds on the ice or not. .
If you would have troubled yourself to read the NHL's latest (around December 15) proposal you would see that the offer has a floor on salarys at 51 % , around 31 million off last season's wages. It is one of numerous misstatements of fact or failures of logic. As to the NFL, even given the enormous revenues they now generate, the NFL would have went bankrupt under the old system, considering they pay a 53 man roster, with rampant injuries could push up to 80 players to pay, and they had no injury buy-outs back then. Alot of money was lost in negotiating deals with slugs like Rich Miano. And every team had lots of players like that.
 

se7en*

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BlackRedGold said:
Yashin and who else? What other guys have held out on the Senators?

If you hadn't noticed Daniel Alfredsson signed a long term deal with Ottawa instead of becoming an unrestricted free agent.

How nice for Alfredsson. Ryan Smyth did the same thing. I'm glad you could cite one player but one player does not equal a core.

Havlat held out last year, don't you remember? Did you hold this stuff back trying in vain to help your case? I see right through it. And I'm sure there are others - another Ottawa fan would know better than I do though.

I thought you said that Oiler fans hope their team makes the playoffs, not win the championship. Considering your season successful if it finishes in the middle of the pack is accepting mediocrity.

In Ottawa there are cries to fire the coach and trade half the team when the team doesn't come close to the Cup. Apparently, all is good in Edmonton if the team makes the playoffs. That's accepting mediocrity
.

I said no such thing.

That's the opinion of one fan - and to proclaim thats indicative of the whole fanbase is beyond foolhardy.

In Edmonton there are cries to fire the coach and trade half the team after a January 31st loss. Unlike you, we're realistic about the expectations of our team. We know when we have something real, and when we do, we'll expect nothing less than the Cup, don't worry.
 

Go Flames Go*

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People jumping to conclusions and not reading the significant significant consecions the NHL offered with the 51% Min spending and 58% max. Who wouldnt want to work for a company that was forced to pay there employees 51% of revenues and you can choose a aduitor to aduit there books. The NHL players are just greedy classes lowlife athletes.
 

Lanny MacDonald*

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PeterSidorkiewicz said:
A CAP guarentees the owners a profit, and WHY should they be guarenteed a profit?

The players have guarnteed contracts, which means they get paid even when they stink it up on the ice. They are guaranteed of making money. The owners invest millions and if the team doesn't make money, they don't make money. So why should the owners not get the same guarantee the players get, and be assured of making a dollar off of the millions they invest?
 

grego

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Jan 12, 2005
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The players should not make more then the owners.

What players have between 100 to 200 million dollars invested in a team, or their career. Yes they have talent and a limited time to make money, but at the same time give the owners some respect for their investment they have made.

They may make some stupid moves in paying a lot of money for players, often making sports based decisions with their emotion and not their usual business sense.

Regardless of that, it is not outrageous for an owner to expect about a 10% return on their investment. This is a general and standard expectation with business. So a teams should make a minimum of 10 to 20 million a year for the owner.
 

Go Flames Go*

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If the NHL agrees to this crap I will not repurchase my tickets for the Flames. I will not suppourt a half assed CBA agreement which favours the players. Unless there is a cap I will not suppourt hockey and the Flames anymore.
 

mudcrutch79

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grego said:
Regardless of that, it is not outrageous for an owner to expect about a 10% return on their investment. This is a general and standard expectation with business. So a teams should make a minimum of 10 to 20 million a year for the owner.

I'd argue this point. It's a sexy business; there are people willing to own teams because it's cool and exciting to own a hockey team. There should be some sort of a discount in the profit they expect when they're buying a team in part because of the psychic value attached to it. Not only that, but 10% is a solid ROI these days. Businesses have to be really well run to hit it. I'd suggest that a lot of NHL teams are not particularly well run.
 

YellHockey*

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Hootchie Cootchie said:
How so? Is it mismanagement that they won't pay Doug Weight over $8,000,000? How about Bill Guerin? Curtis Joseph? Where is the money going to from, genius? I'm dying to hear your explanation, so make it snappy.

It is mismanagement to not have developed players who can step in and replace those players. It is mismanagement to not have traded Joseph when they could have received assets for him.

It is mismanagement to have the draft record the Oilers did during the 90's.

Why would they choose the Rangers? Why did Jagr choose the Capitals? Why did Weight choose the Blues? Why did Yashin choose the Islanders? Why did Nedved choose Phoenix? Is it because we aspire for mediocrity? :lol:

Few top free agents choose the Rangers. They get guys who are paid to play a role that they are not good enough to play on a good team.

Jagr, Weight, and Yashin didn't choose those teams. They were traded to them.

Nedved chose Phoenix because there weren't any good teams looking to sign him. He was relegated to mediocre teams like Phoenix and Edmonton.


After almost 10 longs years of suckage - thats goes for Tampa Bay and Ottawa.

Your math is a little off. Ottawa was bad for five years. They've made the playoffs every season since then. Tampa missed the playoffs for six years before they became a good team.


Were you even a fan then, or did you don the blue-and-white?

I still have my ticket stub from the Senators first NHL regular season game at the Civic Centre.

Is that the only way for small markets to develop a good team? I disagree. Smart drafting and shrewd trades are a bigger part - and being able to keep your core, not see some GM wave $10 million in front of their faces to lure them to a bigger market. That is hardly parity. Is it Edmontons fault that they cant pay $30 mil for 3 players?

It is Edmonton's fault that they haven't been able to develop really good players. Colorado and New Jersey have lost players to free agency and they've still been able to be competitive. The difference is that they develop younger and cheaper players who can take the place of the older and more expensive players.

Is it Ottawa's fault that they'll soon have to ship their stars off under the old CBA?

Who? Who are they going to have to ship off? Alfredsson is locked up long term and the rest are years from UFA.

How will Tampa retain their core when the players demand big money? Ottawa?

With the playoff revenues from being good as well as the higher regular season ticket revenues that come from being a really good team.
 
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