Proposal: Dallas x Montreal

Mackiaveli

Registered User
Nov 24, 2015
1,818
1,502
Dallas Receives: Jeff Petry, Max Pacioretty (50% retained), Montreal 2018 2nd, Montreal 2019 2nd, Karl Alzner (15% retained) and Charlie Lindgren

Montreal Receives: Miro Heiskanen, cap dump(s) of Dallas's choice.

Following this trade, the Stars would find a way to move Spezza's contract, sign Kovalchuk and bring Nuke over from the Motherland. With remaining cap, they would need a solid 2LD (Calvin De Haan?) and would shore up a cup contending roster if they could keep healthy

Benn/Seguin/Radulov
Patches/Hanzal/Janmark
Kovalchuk/Faksa/Nuke
Roussel/Dickinson/Gurianov

Methot/Klingberg
CDH/Petry
Alzner/Honka

Bishop
Lindgren

Dallas gives up their best prospect, but add two picks, a young backup goaltender on a super team friendly contract, and give themselves an elite winger as well as a solid PMD to help round out their offensive depth. The Stars become a cup contender with these moves, and a lot of the heavy lifting gets taken off of that top line with the additions of Kovalchuk, Patches, and Nuke.

Montreal gets a young LD with top pairing potential, and with the moving of Petry they are more inclined to draft an RD at 6-8.
 

pezcore

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
828
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St-Hubert, Qc
Heiskanen is looking good but he's not worth that much and why would Montreal take a cap dump on top of giving away 6 players/picks for one prospect?
 

Kcb12345

Registered User
Jun 6, 2017
28,950
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So Esa Lindell disappears into thin air I guess? As well as Johns/Pitlick/Ritchie/Shore/Elie/Smith? Lindell is better than all 3 Dmen mentioned here on our left side.

Also, Roussel isn't coming back, and although MTL gives up a ton we have no room for a guy like Alzner. Would rather roll with Heiskanen/Lindell than De Haan/Alzner. Petry is nice but we would probably end up trading away Honka so Johns would take that 3rd spot. Also I'm assuming Johns/Lindell/Pitlick/Ritchie/Shore/Elie/Smith etc are all traded away in this scenario? Smith and Elie can be in the AHL but still. There's just way too much to this trade to make it work. I assume you are not a Stars fan because you forgot about nearly half of our roster. Also Janmark is a C/LW. And if we really wanted Spezza gone it would be easy to buy him out. We need our youth more than anything right now
 
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xNogaitx

Akuna Matata.
Sep 9, 2017
756
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Edmonton
Dallas wouldn't give up heiskanen for spare pieces

But that proposal isn't spare pieces.

We're talking a 35 G scorer which would add depth scoring to Dallas (which is known to be a 1 line punch team right now).
Also adding a big-bodied puck moving #3D.

Those two pieces alone combined would fetch a top prospect, a middling 1st, and a 2nd at a minimum out of most teams.

We're in a league where goals are hard to come by and solid top 4 Ds are highly valued.

Then you're adding Lindgren whose been looking great at the NHL level and who could realistically take over Bishop in 2 years time.
(Albeit Alzner's addition cancels out that added value)

Sorry but as much as people want to dish on the Habs, a hockey trade like this doesn't happen unless there is more than just Heiskanen.

You may not like it, but GMs value established players a whole lot more than prospects, regardless of how good they look.

A more realistic offer (albeit GMs rarely get into transactions that large) would be:

Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)
 

Pia8988

Registered User
May 26, 2014
14,371
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But that proposal isn't spare pieces.

We're talking a 35 G scorer which would add depth scoring to Dallas (which is known to be a 1 line punch team right now).
Also adding a big-bodied puck moving #3D.

Those two pieces alone combined would fetch a top prospect, a middling 1st, and a 2nd at a minimum out of most teams.

We're in a league where goals are hard to come by and solid top 4 Ds are highly valued.

Then you're adding Lindgren whose been looking great at the NHL level and who could realistically take over Bishop in 2 years time.
(Albeit Alzner's addition cancels out that added value)

Sorry but as much as people want to dish on the Habs, a hockey trade like this doesn't happen unless there is more than just Heiskanen.

You may not like it, but GMs value established players a whole lot more than prospects, regardless of how good they look.

A more realistic offer (albeit GMs rarely get into transactions that large) would be:

Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)

Dallas happily says no. Not realistic from their end at all. Great for the Habs though.
 

xNogaitx

Akuna Matata.
Sep 9, 2017
756
267
Edmonton
Dallas happily says no

As happy as they want. You don't move a prospect that has yet to play a single NHL game for a top goal scorer, a top 4 D, two 2nd rd picks, and a potential future starting goalie for one guy alone. Not unless that prospect is McDavid level prospect, which Heiskanen isn't (albeit he does look like a solid prospect).
 
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Legend123

Registered User
Jul 3, 2016
9,783
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lol nope. Putting all ur eggs into one basket is terrible. if he doesnt pan out... oh boy. Would rather keep the early seconds and trade the players in separate deals for prospects, albeit lesser, and picks.
 

Pia8988

Registered User
May 26, 2014
14,371
8,783
As happy as they want. You don't move a prospect that has yet to play a single NHL game for a top goal scorer, a top 4 D, two 2nd rd picks, and a potential future starting goalie for one guy alone. Not unless that prospect is McDavid level prospect, which Heiskanen isn't (albeit he does look like a solid prospect).

OP Proposal is bad. Yours is too.
 

Ctrain2k

Registered User
Dec 3, 2016
3,768
3,460
But that proposal isn't spare pieces.

We're talking a 35 G scorer which would add depth scoring to Dallas (which is known to be a 1 line punch team right now).
Also adding a big-bodied puck moving #3D.

Those two pieces alone combined would fetch a top prospect, a middling 1st, and a 2nd at a minimum out of most teams.

We're in a league where goals are hard to come by and solid top 4 Ds are highly valued.

Then you're adding Lindgren whose been looking great at the NHL level and who could realistically take over Bishop in 2 years time.
(Albeit Alzner's addition cancels out that added value)

Sorry but as much as people want to dish on the Habs, a hockey trade like this doesn't happen unless there is more than just Heiskanen.

You may not like it, but GMs value established players a whole lot more than prospects, regardless of how good they look.

A more realistic offer (albeit GMs rarely get into transactions that large) would be:

Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)

Pac is gonna be a ufa, Petry and Alzner have borderline negative value with there contracts and lindgren's worth like a 3rd or 4th.
 

xNogaitx

Akuna Matata.
Sep 9, 2017
756
267
Edmonton
OP Proposal is bad. Yours is too.

Mine was modified and based on the OPs' mentioned player.

I personally believe that if a move is made to trade Patches (with a resigning agreement around Radulov's price tag) and Lindgren to Dallas, the return would be something in the vicinity of Heiskanen and Dallas' 2018 1st.

See Arizona-NYR's trade last year as a reference point. (The value is lesser on Mtl's side from that trade, but then the returned value is also lower on Dallas' side also.) Give or take a middling pick or a swap of later pics being added.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
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Stars don't have a player on a worse contract than Alzner. Not even Hanzal. Actually, they probably don't have enough negative contractual value on their entire team to match Alzner.

The Habs also need quantity and not just one high quality prospect. They are going to be a worse team for a couple years if they get rid of Patch and Petry anyway. They should make those two 2nd round picks and trade Patch and Petry for further picks/prospects, if Bergevin ever concedes and decides to blow it up. Just getting Heiskanen would not be enough to revitalize the team.
 

BeaverSports

Registered User
Mar 3, 2004
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Yes, Heiskanen is not for sale unless there's a proven young asset (probably 22 or younger) that is already what he is projected - a top pair or top line player - coming back.
 

Pia8988

Registered User
May 26, 2014
14,371
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Mine was modified and based on the OPs' mentioned player.

I personally believe that if a move is made to trade Patches (with a resigning agreement around Radulov's price tag) and Lindgren to Dallas, the return would be something in the vicinity of Heiskanen and Dallas' 2018 1st.

See Arizona-NYR's trade last year as a reference point. (The value is lesser on Mtl's side from that trade, but then the returned value is also lower on Dallas' side also.) Give or take a middling pick or a swap of later pics being added.

It wouldn't start with Heiskanen. Getting a top young D and having team control is vastly more important to the long term health than a scoring winger. Montreal just went through that with Sergachev with Drouin. The problem is Dallas isn't going to add the extra francophone value Montreal was stupid enough to buy.
 

xNogaitx

Akuna Matata.
Sep 9, 2017
756
267
Edmonton
It wouldn't start with Heiskanen. Getting a top young D and having team control is vastly more important to the long term health than a scoring winger. Montreal just went through that with Sergachev with Drouin. The problem is Dallas isn't going to add the extra francophone value Montreal was stupid enough to buy.

I don't disagree there. Just saying what the value would be.

Those trades rarely happen anyway. And that would pretty much Dallas' management trying to go for a playoff push next season with their core, which I just don't think is strong enough to lead to a cup anyway. Sadly Dallas doesn't have any other top prospect that is of enough value to justify such a move to afford Patches.

I'm not pretending Dallas wants Patches here, just saying what the "value" would probably end up around if it was.
 

Kcb12345

Registered User
Jun 6, 2017
28,950
22,177
.
A more realistic offer (albeit GMs rarely get into transactions that large) would be:

Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)

This is one of the worst trade proposals I've seen. No way Dallas gives up their 2 top prospects plus adding onto that. Bergevin is your GM, not ours.
 

Mackiaveli

Registered User
Nov 24, 2015
1,818
1,502
Pac is gonna be a ufa, Petry and Alzner have borderline negative value with there contracts and lindgren's worth like a 3rd or 4th.

They get a year of Patches, hence the draft pick.
Alzner is not 'negative value' but his contract is a bit steep --- he would likely look better somewhere he can play near the bottom of the roster instead of the top, and it's no surprise they Habs want to shed his contract, hence the draft pick.
Petry is the furthest thing from 'negative value' the dude is one of the league's best 2nd pairing PMDs on a very sweet contract. He's not even sniffing Subban levels of elite by any means, but he is also nearly half the price of Subban playing similar minutes/role and definitely better than half as good.

So Esa Lindell disappears into thin air I guess? As well as Johns/Pitlick/Ritchie/Shore/Elie/Smith? Lindell is better than all 3 Dmen mentioned here on our left side.

I won't pretend to fully understand your depth chart -- originally I offered Byron but it seems as if your team is deep enough after bringing in the three forwards in my proposal that you don't need a player like Byron. What your 2RW and 4th line looks like is truly beyond me, but I doubt any player in your depth chart is better than the top 9 (barring your 2RW) I proposed above. You add a perennial 35 goal scoring winger, as well as an elite 2nd pairing PMD at the very least. Flip Alzner to a team like Arizona or VGK if you really don't need him, but ultimately the point would be to give you guys a depth, playoff experienced defenseman who can play tough minute and kill penalties at the very least. He is a comparable to Dan Hamhuis, and some would argue better (not sure if I agree with that sentiment or not this year). The Habs are taking a notable risk in trading so many pieces including our best defenseman not named Shea Weber, but I think there is value on both sides.

The entire objective of the NHL is to try and win a Stanley Cup, and with your franchise core of Seguin/Benn (elite core of Tickles and Bishop) getting older with every passing year, there comes a time that the Stars need to start transitioning towards a rebuild, or push towards a cup --- what better time than when you can add an elite goal scorer and a solid PMD for the price of 1 player (and also pick up Kovalchuk/Bring Nuke home simultaneously) to completely fix your teams biggest issue (scoring after your 1st line gets off the ice).

If Stars fans aren't interested, that's fine --- I thought it was a well balanced offer, as both teams address major needs, and it doesn't gut the Habs youth, or ability to compete this upcoming season (The loss of Petry and Patches hurts, but we would move into Free Agency with over 30m in cap space to completely revamp our roster).

Heiskanen is not for sale unless there's a proven young asset (probably 22 or younger) that is already what he is projected - a top pair or top line player - coming back.

Posts like this completely ruin my faith in using these forums --- Why would any team in their right mind trade a young, cost controlled, proven asset for a player that is projected to be 'as good' as what they already have? No team would ever in their right mind do that, because you could end up with a Sam Reinhart or Noah Hanifin instead of Jacob Trouba or John Klingberg (Not to say the former are slouches, but the latter are infinitely better players). When a team moves a prospect, the entire purpose is to 'win now' and moving Heiskanen would never fetch you a player under 24 years old that is already a top line player --- you get an equally unproven prospect in a different role, or you get older cup contributing players and enter a 'win now' mode

The Habs also need quantity and not just one high quality prospect. They are going to be a worse team for a couple years if they get rid of Patch and Petry anyway.

I don't agree. The Habs are miserable in 3 areas:

1. C
2. LD
3. RD

Moving Petry, Alzner and Patches for Heiskanen gives us a left side moving forward of Mete/Heiskanen and a right side of Juulsen (in terms of ready prospects).

It also leaves us with nearly 30m in cap. Tavares at 7x 12m-13m, CDH at 5x 4-5m, John Carlson at 7 x 7m (to replace Petry), Mike Green at 3 x 4.5m-5m, Markov (I wish) at 2x 4m, Neal at 3 x 5m, Stastny at 4 x 4m --- JVR, Evander Kane --- all possible options. Tons of very talented players that can fix our scoring woes, and our defensive troubles short term while we look to build through the draft. We still get a top 6 pick in this years draft, and two other seconds this year to add serious depth.

If we look to move Weber in a season or two, we can expect quite a few prospects back from that (so long as his foot recovers properly and he's not a shadow of himself)


Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)

The Stars have no inclination to move their draft pick when their prospects (wingers aside) are getting to run thin as well.

Robertson is one of their best prospects, but he also plays a position where the Habs are far too deep to begin with (If Galchenyuk spends the rest of his career as a left winger, Drouin/Galchenyuk is an elite 1/2 - Lehkonen is 3)

Spezza will never waive his NMC (unless that runs out in the last year of his deal or something?) to go to a Canadian team, let alone the Canadians. He made it very clear he doesn't like Canada when he left the Sens.

Habs not clearing the Alzner contract hurts them more than it helps them, as he's not better then Mete, and if Heiskanen can step in you would want Heisk on the bottom pairing. That leaves Alzner as the 2LD, where anyone would rather have a player like Calvin de Haan.

All that aside, the value for Montreal is way too ridiculous there. Dallas guts their future entirely which is entirely the point of me adding draft picks in the original deal. They should not give up their best prospect AND two top 60 draft picks for the package proposed.
 

mikeyp24

Registered User
Jun 28, 2014
5,959
1,231
A more realistic offer (albeit GMs rarely get into transactions that large) would be:

Dallas:
Pacioretty (50% retained)
Jeff Petry
Charlie Lindgren
Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick

Mtl:
Heiskanen
Jason Robertson
Dallas 2018 1st rd pick
Dallas 2018 2nd rd pick
Jason Spezza (Cap dump)
AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathes*


*spits*

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

seriously That's the more realistic deal hahahaha. Let's trade a guy who's soon to be a UFA and wasn't traded at the deadline because he just doesn't have the value people ask for him. See example JVR. An aging #4D who is nothing special that you couldn't trade for off of any team or find in UFA. Example Ian Cole was traded for a mid pick I don't even think in this draft. A young goalie prospect that every team has 9 of. Goalies also have 0 trade value. The best of the best like Schieder going into his prime while being established got the 8th pick at the time of the pick so knowing who was available. This goalie... currently worth 4th probably. And then a 2nd not even yours which would likely be the earlier one for...

The 3rd pick the previous year so a 19yo who is developing great, their 2nd best prospect who they are a great future in, their 1st AND 2nd pick which would likely be in their top 5 prospects with these 2 guys after the draft, and a "dump" who would actually improve you centers and help you tremendously.

Go on and tell the oilers about the fantastic f***ing... realistic GM trade you guys would do to help them get that cap dump McDavid off their hands before he regressed hard and they have to buy him out. I hear your only asking them to pay you this year's unprotected 1st and take Alzner back as a dump and it works for you


LOL
 
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xNogaitx

Akuna Matata.
Sep 9, 2017
756
267
Edmonton
AHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathes*


*spits*

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

seriously That's the more realistic deal hahahaha. Let's trade a guy who's soon to be a UFA and wasn't traded at the deadline because he just doesn't have the value people ask for him. See example JVR. An aging #4D who is nothing special that you couldn't trade for off of any team or find in UFA. Example Ian Cole was traded for a mid pick I don't even think in this draft. A young goalie prospect that every team has 9 of. Goalies also have 0 trade value. The best of the best like Schieder going into his prime while being established got the 8th pick at the time of the pick so knowing who was available. This goalie... currently worth 4th probably. And then a 2nd not even yours which would likely be the earlier one for...

The 3rd pick the previous year so a 19yo who is developing great, their 2nd best prospect who they are a great future in, their 1st AND 2nd pick which would likely be in their top 5 prospects with these 2 guys after the draft, and a "dump" who would actually improve you centers and help you tremendously.

Go on and tell the oilers about the fantastic ****ing... realistic GM trade you guys would do to help them get that cap dump McDavid off their hands before he regressed hard and they have to buy him out. I hear your only asking them to pay you this year's unprotected 1st and take Alzner back as a dump and it works for you


LOL

You must not have read my subsequent post saying I also don't think that deal happens either. Easy to skip over that.

But fine if you need the logic. Trash talk all you want the Habs I'm used to it.


But the value of Pacioretty (which is higher than JVR's, or Nash for that matter) will be a 1st and some combination of prospect/other picks.
You can say "UFA" to be all you want, a guy like this getting traded at the draft gets traded with a deal in place, no GM would be stupid enough to trade for a TDL acquisition at the draft without intending on resigning the guy.

Hate on the guy all you want, you're adding a guy who turned 29 years old two months ago to a roster and who will in all likelihood put up 25-40 G a seasons for the next 4-5 years before starting to decline (and even then will retain value a la Nash at a TDL to recoup some of the "costs of acquisition").

The same thing with Petry, the dude just turned 30, most top 4 defensemen in this league really start to see a decline in their play in their mid-30s. He'll be providing solid years for any team having him on for the remainder of his contract 'til he's like 33 or 34 years old at a non-overpaid cap hit.

Those two pieces as a stand-alone I'll invite you strongly to revisit the completed trade board of the last two seasons.

Top 4D usually involves a 1st, and a solid prospect coming back or a combination of 1st and 2nds, or multiple 2nds a prospect.

For Petry? He's 30 so something around the value of 2 2nd round picks will be the ask (Otherwise there's just no incentive for MTL to move him).
He won't fetch a 1st due to his "older" age of "crumbling 30".

As mentioned before, Pacioretty: 1st and a great prospect/middle 6 roster player and/or a 2nd rd pick and/or some combination depending on the prospect's value.

Yes, goalies don't have much value, they gather middling picks or are tied into a bigger trade (see for reference raanta + stepan for DeAngelo (high end top 20 former draft pick at the time) and #7 overall pick).

Dallas doesn't have any other prospects that really look like a future impactful player, so of course, that was the trade proposal.

A GM that goes out and acquires Patches and Petry and Lindgren at once isn't a GM building through the draft, it's a GM going "all in" by fixing some glaring holes that will help his team compete for the next 2-4 years to fit his core's prime years.

Dallas will not make such a trade, but yes if they go out and acquire a Top 4 D, Bishop's successor, and a 35 goal scorer (which are all certain value), they will have to put a guy like Heiskanen, a 1st, and another roster player and/or solid prospect going back, and ++.

You won't get a future 3rd liner, a late 1st, and some AHL scrubs in return for such a package as much as you'd like to rob MTL's dumb GM.


Established player > Unproven commodity.

But this is HF, a 3rd rounder putting up PPG in the OHL at 19 years old has more value than an established 3rd line winger putting up 40 pts seasons. So what do I know?

Said it before, I don't think a trade happens, but if it does, it would be something in the vicinity of Pacioretty resigned, Chicago's 2018 2nd rd pick, and Lindgren for Heiskanen and Dallas' 1st, which in itself is unlikely unless Dallas' GM wants to go all in.
 

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