OT: COVID-19 general thread part II (and final part - see closing post)

[Azathoth]

This is some incredible logic. If the only breakdown you are going to look at is age...then yeah it's going to look like age is the only factor at play!
Still waiting for you to get back to me about how these age groups breakdown when accounting for other factors. Tell me...within the age 18-24 group, what are the vaccination rates among different factors other than just their age?

I'm guessing you won't provide the answer if it indicates something you don't want to acknowledge.

Do you don't see the logical breakdown in your supposition?

40+ year old redneck conservatives seemingly don't have a problem with the vaccine based on the vaccination rates...But 18-24 ones...They do because they are conservative rednecks?

This 100% absolutely does not make sense

Aren't the 40+ their parents, grandparents? So the redneck conservative grandparents see the benefits of the vaccine but their children and grandchildren don't? Seems like a generational problem not a conservative redneck problem? No?

Here's a paper from May that breaks down vaccine hesitancy by age, race, education, location etc.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/private/pdf/265341/aspe-ib-vaccine-hesitancy.pdf

 

[MartyOwns]

Why is it so hard for people to just ignore all the political bullshit and just get the damn vaccine because it at the end of the day, it works.

that's the part that kills me. and the disingenuous progression of 'it's no worse than the flu' --> 'it goes away in the warm weather' -->'let's take hydroxychloroquine' --> let's take horse paste'--> 'natural immunity means you don't need to get the vaccine' and whatever dumbass narrative is coming tomorrow.

there was a time when there was data supporting each and every one of those narratives, it's just that the data was extremely limited and, in most cases, faulty.

there is nothing limited or faulty in the data supporting getting the vaccine for 99.9% of people. the only thing stacked against the vaccine is the tendency for human beings to be selfish and turn everything into a political "me vs them" car crash.

 

[JimEIV]

Here's a paper from May that breaks down vaccine hesitancy by age, race, education, location etc.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/private/pdf/265341/aspe-ib-vaccine-hesitancy.pdf

Yup.
Among those who said they will “probably” or “definitely not” get a COVID-19 vaccine, those in the 18-25 age group were twice as likely to say they do not believe they need a COVID-19 vaccine

 

[NJDevs26]

That's the problem - there is seemingly no definitive answer on this topic right now, despite many acting like this is the case.

I understand how the "easy" answer is to just force everyone to have to get both doses of the vaccine, but there's a very real chance that two doses of vaccine on top of natural immunity for many of these athletes doesn't really provide much of a benefit...not to mention 20-something elite athletes are already at low risk to begin with and even less so with natural immunity on top of that (even if the actual levels of protection are in question, there's no doubt there is some additional level of protection).

There is no evidence at all ‘natural immunity’ lasts forever either despite you and others wishing it so. And plenty of vax hesitant people can’t even argue natural immunity because they haven’t had the virus (yet). What we do know is the vaccine greatly curtails the chances of getting the virus, transmitting the virus or getting the most harmful symptoms if you do have a breakthrough infection. A vast minority of exceptions don’t change those proven facts.

Why do you and others greatly exaggerate the potential risk of the vaccine and underplay the obvious risk of getting the virus? Or for that matter the risk of allowing the virus to further mutate into something even more dangerous by betting on natural immunity and herd immunity?

 

[JimEIV]

that's the part that kills me. and the disingenuous progression of 'it's no worse than the flu' --> 'it goes away in the warm weather' -->'let's take hydroxychloroquine' --> let's take horse paste'--> 'natural immunity means you don't need to get the vaccine' and whatever dumbass narrative is coming tomorrow.

there was a time when there was data supporting each and every one of those narratives, it's just that the data was extremely limited and, in most cases, faulty.

there is nothing limited or faulty in the data supporting getting the vaccine for 99.9% of people. the only thing stacked against the vaccine is the tendency for human beings to be selfish and turn everything into a political "me vs them" car crash.

Oh you think that is just natural instinct? Not data driven, poll tested campaigns concocted in some "Think Tank" in the suburbs of D.C.?

Pffft. It is so easy to get a lot of people to believe "those people over there..." They are trying to take something from you or hurt you. Since the dawn of time evil men have played that game...And quite effectively.

 

[guitarguyvic]

When you have nearly total and complete vaccination in the over 40 group there are no other factors at play....One is complete at 85% the other is not at 65%...It's simple. There are NO deviations in the over 40 group. This is as black and white as you can get without any bullshit narrative noise

Type this in Google "millennial generation as a voting block" and look what comes back. You'll understand immediately how and why the narratives are what they are.

What do you mean there are no deviations in the over 40 group??

Massachusetts - 40+ years old - 90.5% with one dose
Source: https://www.mass.gov/doc/weekly-covid-19-vaccination-report-september-23-2021/download

Idaho - 45+ years old - 73.2% with one dose
Source: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../viz/COVID-19VaccineDataDashboard/LandingPage

That's a difference of 17 percentage points among the 40+ crowd in two different states.

First you claimed that how our institutions deliver the message is a huge factor...then you decided age is the thing...how would either of those account for one state seeing nearly their entire 40+ population vaccinated while another still has more than a quarter of them to go?

 

[MartyOwns]

Oh you think that is just natural instinct? Not data driven, poll tested campaigns concocted in some "Think Tank" in the suburbs of D.C.?

Pffft.

i think being selfish is an evolutionary trait, linked to an impulse for survival. for example, a drowning person will clutch and pull someone else underwater as their brain will do anything to survive. and i do think that trait has been exploited for political purposes over the years, but that’s as far as i can take it in this forum.

 

[Billdo]

The number of articles one way or the other shouldn't be relevant. The reporting is not necessarily proportional to the validity. You can find probably hundreds of articles highlighting breakthrough cases even though they account for an infinitesimal amount of total cases. You have to look at the source of the info and the big picture data.

I mean that's basically my point, I don't know if I conveyed that though. My point was that there are two very clear and concise sides to this both with tons of literature backing their claims so for anyone who falls into the middle it might be confusing.

 

[JimEIV]

What do you mean there are no deviations in the over 40 group??

Massachusetts - 40+ years old - 90.5% with one dose
Source: https://www.mass.gov/doc/weekly-covid-19-vaccination-report-september-23-2021/download

Idaho - 45+ years old - 73.2% with one dose
Source: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../viz/COVID-19VaccineDataDashboard/LandingPage

That's a difference of 17 percentage points among the 40+ crowd in two different states.

First you claimed that how our institutions deliver the message is a huge factor...then you decided age is the thing...how would either of those account for one state seeing nearly their entire 40+ population vaccinated while another still has more than a quarter of them to go?

Western Mountain Wilderness vs MegaTroplis East coast...Are you being serious? My friends in Idaho drive 45 minutes to the grocery store...It is a 4 hour once a week event to buy freaking groceries!

 

[Darkauron]

I really dont understand why lies and false and misleading information is being continued to be allowed on here. It just continues to propagate and give people a platform to continue.

 

[JimEIV]

i think being selfish is an evolutionary trait, linked to an impulse for survival. for example, a drowning person will clutch and pull someone else underwater as their brain will do anything to survive. and i do think that trait has been exploited for political purposes over the years, but that’s as far as i can take it in this forum.

Selfish is in the eye of the beholder.

I wanted to make a comment on that earlier but I didn't want to open another avenue...Who is selfish? They guy that wants to be left alone or the guy that wants to make the guy who wants to be left alone do something?

You can spin that anyway.

 

[GameSeven]

What do you mean there are no deviations in the over 40 group??

Massachusetts - 40+ years old - 90.5% with one dose
Source: https://www.mass.gov/doc/weekly-covid-19-vaccination-report-september-23-2021/download

Idaho - 45+ years old - 73.2% with one dose
Source: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../viz/COVID-19VaccineDataDashboard/LandingPage

That's a difference of 17 percentage points among the 40+ crowd in two different states.

First you claimed that how our institutions deliver the message is a huge factor...then you decided age is the thing...how would either of those account for one state seeing nearly their entire 40+ population vaccinated while another still has more than a quarter of them to go?

Massachussets (about 850 people/sq mi) vs. Idaho (about 20 people/sq mi)?

Everybody assesses, rightly or wrongly, their personal risk based upon a ton of factors. Yes, *some* are using their political affiliation, but it's not the blanket cudgel the other party thinks it is.

Age *is* a significant factor, not because the young don't care about their health, but because they are assessing their risk based upon available numbers which imply a decidedly more deadly pandemic for the older population. Transparency on age and comorbidities has been a tremendous shortcoming in the handling of the disease IMO.

As far as political distrust, when the scientific community put its finger on the scale vis-a-vis what manners of public gatherings (i.e. civic protests vs family/religious/other) were acceptable during the early days of the pandemic, battle lines were drawn.

Continuing to slander hesitant folks with euphemisms (inject bleach, horse paste) and pejoratives (stupid, selfish, ignorant) is working counter to what you want to achieve.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I mean that's basically my point, I don't know if I conveyed that though. My point was that there are two very clear and concise sides to this both with tons of literature backing their claims so for anyone who falls into the middle it might be confusing.

It's only confusing if you can't/don't recognize that individual articles are meaningless. I can find dozens of articles every single day about people being murdered. That alone tells me nothing about the actual murder rate.

This has nothing to do with "being in the middle". It has to do with the ability to understand how to evaluate truth, likelihoods, and risk.

 

[MartyOwns]

Selfish is in the eye of the beholder.

I wanted to make a comment on that earlier but I didn't want to open another avenue...Who is selfish? They guy that wants to be left alone or the guy that wants to make the guy who wants to be left alone do something?

You can spin that anyway.

to me, someone who is physically able to get a safe, free, lifesaving, and effective vaccine to help themselves and others but chooses not to because of X is selfish, where X= whatever contrarian crackpot study/trend is popular at the moment.

but hey, there's no law against being selfish. however, you shouldn't be surprised when a hockey team has no place for you because of that selfishness, or a restaurant, or whatever. you can't have it both ways.

 

[Triumph]

Massachussets (about 850 people/sq mi) vs. Idaho (about 20 people/sq mi)?

Everybody assesses, rightly or wrongly, their personal risk based upon a ton of factors. Yes, *some* are using their political affiliation, but it's not the blanket cudgel the other party thinks it is.

People from Idaho don't gather indoors ever? Maybe every Sunday morning, perhaps? That doesn't happen? Sure.

Age *is* a significant factor, not because the young don't care about their health, but because they are assessing their risk based upon available numbers which imply a decidedly more deadly pandemic for the older population. Transparency on age and comorbidities has been a tremendous shortcoming in the handling of the disease IMO.

I cannot disagree with this more. From the beginning of the pandemic in the United States, it was known that old people were much more at risk, but that younger people could also die.

As far as political distrust, when the scientific community put its finger on the scale vis-a-vis what manners of public gatherings (i.e. civic protests vs family/religious/other) were acceptable during the early days of the pandemic, battle lines were drawn.

Right, it's the scientific community who did that. Not the fact that one was outdoors and one was typically indoors. Good handle on stuff here. This is the place actually where governments screwed up, closing playgrounds and parks and beaches was foolish.

Continuing to slander hesitant folks with euphemisms (inject bleach, horse paste) and pejoratives (stupid, selfish, ignorant) is working counter to what you want to achieve.

They are ignorant and it's September, the vaccine has been pretty widely available for 6 months and hundreds of thousands of people have died of COVID-19 since.

 

[GameSeven]

People from Idaho don't gather indoors ever? Maybe every Sunday morning, perhaps? That doesn't happen? Sure.



I cannot disagree with this more. From the beginning of the pandemic in the United States, it was known that old people were much more at risk, but that younger people could also die.



Right, it's the scientific community who did that. Not the fact that one was outdoors and one was typically indoors. Good handle on stuff here. This is the place actually where governments screwed up, closing playgrounds and parks and beaches was foolish.



They are ignorant and it's September, the vaccine has been pretty widely available for 6 months and hundreds of thousands of people have died of COVID-19 since.

I'd reply to these points, but I feel like you've made clear that the divide in our opinions is too great for any meaningful dialogue.

 

[JimEIV]

People from Idaho don't gather indoors ever? Maybe every Sunday morning, perhaps? That doesn't happen? Sure.

Who cares? Your local highschool football team has more people than some of those entire towns in rural Idaho.... Literally.

Their needs aren't the same as yours.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Massachussets (about 850 people/sq mi) vs. Idaho (about 20 people/sq mi)?

Everybody assesses, rightly or wrongly, their personal risk based upon a ton of factors. Yes, *some* are using their political affiliation, but it's not the blanket cudgel the other party thinks it is.

Age *is* a significant factor, not because the young don't care about their health, but because they are assessing their risk based upon available numbers which imply a decidedly more deadly pandemic for the older population. Transparency on age and comorbidities has been a tremendous shortcoming in the handling of the disease IMO.

Oh no doubt these are factors. Again I never said they aren't. But that's not the discussion taking place. The original claim was that poor messaging from our health institutions is what drove skepticism and vaccine hesitancy, when in reality years of political propaganda and bad faith actors spreading mis/disinformation has made any such messaging relatively irrelevant for tens of millions of Americans. The discussion then evolved into dismissing that reality as nothing more than a social media driven "narrative". Age is really kind of not even relevant to the discussion - younger people in general are going feel less threatened by COVID regardless of any other factors because it is statically less of a threat to them and they have a natural inclination to feel more invincible. Older people will likewise feel more threatened by COVID regardless of other factors for the opposite reasons. In turn this will affect vaccine hesitancy and risk assessment. Again, no one is denying this. The problem here is that Jim is attempting to completely dismiss the significant impact of mis/disinformation and how that correlates to previous and ongoing political propaganda.

As far as political distrust, when the scientific community put its finger on the scale vis-a-vis what manners of public gatherings (i.e. civic protests vs family/religious/other) were acceptable during the early days of the pandemic, battle lines were drawn.

I have to call bullshit on this. The scientific community did not make a concerted effort to draw battle lines on this topic...the people responsible for creating public policy did.

Continuing to slander hesitant folks with euphemisms (inject bleach, horse paste) and pejoratives (stupid, selfish, ignorant) is working counter to what you want to achieve.

Well yeah that's probably the case for everything we disagree with these days right? I think people are just fed up with willful ignorance.

 

[HBK27]

I’m not compelled by a multimillionaire baby that wants their every whim catered to. God forbid you ask them to do something for the collective good. Not even just society at large, but their own goddamn team.

What's the collective good to society if the natural immunity does prove to be potent than the vaccine alone?

What's the benefit to his own team if he's not putting them at any increased level of risk?

 

[guitarguyvic]

Who cares? Your local highschool football team has more people than some of those entire towns in rural Idaho.... Literally.

Their needs aren't the same as yours.

This is absolute irrelevant nonsense.
People in these rural areas never travel either? Perhaps to those big states/cities with hundreds of more people per square mile, where they could more easily spread a virus like COVID if they aren't vaccinated? "Their needs"...but who care about everybody else right? If that isn't a perfect encapsulation of selfishness I don't know what is.

First the only reason for vaccine hesitancy was messaging. Then it was age. Now it's because the town they live in is smaller than my local football team.

SureJan.gif

 

[JimEIV]

This is absolute irrelevant nonsense.
People in these rural areas never travel either? Perhaps to those big states/cities with hundreds of more people per square mile, where they could more easily spread a virus like COVID if they aren't vaccinated? "Their needs"...but who care about everybody else right? If that isn't a perfect encapsulation of selfishness I don't know what is.

First the only reason for vaccine hesitancy was messaging. Then it was age. Now it's because the town they live in is smaller than my local football team.

SureJan.gif

No it is still age...And all the data proves it. Even in those place those age breakdown follow suite

But geographical, infrastructure, race, ethnicity also play a role....It's just not dem dar FOX News people smoking a corn-cobbed pipe humpen their cousin is what I'm saying.

 

[NJDevs26]

After consulting with global and local mods, everyone is in agreement that this should be the last COVID specific thread on HFDevils. Like politics (and partly because it involves politics) people cannot avoid posting sketchy garbage, personal attacks or politically slanted and off topic junk in the non-COVID threads, there have been multiple infractions and thread bans just in the last week in multiple threads with globals having to get involved. Thus it’s no longer worth anyone’s time and trouble to have a COVID only thread on HFDevils. If you want to continue arguing with each other I suggest either taking it to the main COVID forum or off the board entirely.

From here on in, COVID discussion will be limited to anything directly involving the Devils or NHL in the respective folders (team, Around The League). Any COVID discussion not directly related to either and not posted in hockey threads will be treated as Off-Topic/Spam and deleted.