Could MTL and TOR support another team each?

[dolfanar]

It seems to me that the whole Hab centric thing is rather recent. I remember in the late 80's early 90s that there were TONS of Black Hawk and Bruins fans around town (no idea why I saw so many blackhawk fans mind you... Denis savard maybe?).

It is true that there is a kind of myopia set in here. But I believe that if a team were marketed right that it could survive or even thrive here, with one caveat: NOT an expansion team. If a decent enough team were moved here (Say the Panthers with a Roberto Luongo) then ti would have enough going for it to build momentum and stick. This whole "Montreal is not a rich enough town" talk doesn't wash with me. If you just split the fan base 70/30 you'd have enough to have a successful franchise.

Toronto OTOH would be better off simply because the Leafs have had almost 40 years of futility working against them vs the Habs 12. The Leafs own inertia would give the new franchise a shot of catching hold. Ofcourse if the Leafs pulled their finger out and won a couple cups right away, the new team would get buried.

All in all I like Hamilton as the best option right now in Canada. If they don't repeat the same dumbass mistakes Ottawa did (stadium/Highway, etc...) then it could be a fine place for a team. In another few years I might see Winnipeg as an option if the Provincial gov is willing to play ball. Quebec needs some more time to forget the Nordiques. That is a city that has had alot of poorly run pro franchises, and needs time to get a hunger for another try.

 

[Munchausen]

I think the money issue in Montreal wouldn't be so much about ticket sales as it would be about corporate and advertising money.

Even if the town is ego-centric about its hockey team, it would most probably welcome an other one in that same city and develop a sufficient fanbase to fill two buildings.

But Montreal is now the sole representative of a province wide French-Canadian hockey market and it is barely able to have enough luxury box/advertising money to keep one NHL franchise afloat, one that is extremely prestigious and storied to boot. I just don't think you could split that money over 2 teams and remain competitive, not in today's highly priced NHL anyway.

 

[Scoogs]

Wouldnt it be funny if the new Toronto team won the Cup before the Leafs?

Actually, now that I think of it, thats not funny....

 

[Cole Caulifield]

...

The fact Videotron is not offering center ice is not a proof in itself that hockey is not popular here. Bell Express vu offers it. It's one out of two. Maybe Videotron doesn't feel there's a market for two distributors offering that service. It's difficult to tell. I've been asking it of cogeco cable too.

People in Mtl are hockey fans. It's just that what the NHL has offered over the past decade hasn't been satisfying for a good majority of the fans here. The nordiques leaving, the defensive era, over expansion, the habs strugles, clutch and grab, removal of the instigator, recent decline of the LHJMQ, etc. That surely hurt center ice sales/demand and the sport of hockey itself in Quebec.

I think people in Quebec are hockey fans. It's just that we're VERY picky and won't settle for crap.

People are gullible, follow trends, etc. If RDS had showed some quality AHL, or LHJMQ, and made some publicity about it, from the get go, I think people would be preparing for the Q playoffs, following the AHL race to the POs, etc. But they're reacting instead of making it happen. I was watching Gerry Frappier on RDS after the season was cancelled and I despise the guy. He's a moron, really. It went like this

Gerry Frappier : There are other sports than hockey out there
Pierre Houde (looking akward) : But rest assured that we're going to keep showing quality hockey with the euro leagues, and also, RDS is going to show the WC soon.
Gerry Frappier (looking confused) : Hum ?
Pierre Houde : We're showing it right ?
Gerry Frappier : ohhhh yes of course...

I mean, it's not just our fault as Québécois hockey fans. RDS and the rest of the media (110%, CKAC) can share a part of the blame for the crappy coverage and the way they poop on anything that's not the NHL or the Habs. And even then...

You brought some very good points. And I can't say I disagree, but I feel that part of the reason hockey in general garners less interest is because of the crappy media coverage we get. You say that the source of the problem is the people of Quebec, I say that the source of the problem is the medias.

 

[Charge_Seven]

No. Not a chance.

Feasibly, Toronto COULD, if it got the corporate support.

However, it won't happen. Montreal has the support it does, because they are the Canadiens. Toronto has the support it does because we are the Maple Leafs. It's that simple. The only days those other two teams would sell out, would be when their counterparts were visiting (much like how the Canadiens, and Leafs help to sell out other cities already).

An NHL team in Winnipeg is a much, much, MUCH better idea than having two in Toronto/Montreal.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

As far as the thread is concerned, I'll say that it wouldn't be a good idea to have two teams in either TO or MTL. I don't think it would be possible.

 

[VanIslander]

It has been concluded that Michigan could support a second NHL franchise but the Red Wings would never allow it to happen.

As for Canada, a second team in Montreal or Toronto would be insane to do before returning a team to Winnipeg or Quebec City, or awarding a franchise to Hamilton.

 

[Munchausen]

The fact Videotron is not offering center ice is not a proof in itself that hockey is not popular here. Bell Express vu offers it. It's one out of two. Maybe Videotron doesn't feel there's a market for two distributors offering that service. It's difficult to tell. I've been asking it of cogeco cable too.

Unless I'm mistaking, isn't Bell Express Vu offered Canada wide? That might explain right there why they do carry it while Videotron, which is Quebec exclusive, doesn't.

You brought some very good points. And I can't say I disagree, but I feel that part of the reason hockey in general garners less interest is because of the crappy media coverage we get. You say that the source of the problem is the people of Quebec, I say that the source of the problem is the medias.

I'm not ready to say it starts with the fans, it might not, the media do a crappy job at keeping the hockey fire alive outside of the Habs. Problem is, when you get some crappy media coverage for long enough, people start to follow the trend and lose interest for things outside of what is covered in the media. It's a vicious cycle. The media don't cover a certain product because they feel their public isn't interested in it, and the public loses interest in said product if it doesn't have any exposure.

Don't get me wrong, I feel lucky I can watch 82 habs games a year on RDS, I just wish they could diversify and broaden their hockey scope.

 

[SuperUnknown]

It has been concluded that Michigan could support a second NHL franchise but the Red Wings would never allow it to happen.

As for Canada, a second team in Montreal or Toronto would be insane to do before returning a team to Winnipeg or Quebec City, or awarding a franchise to Hamilton.

Hamilton can't even support properly an AHL team. As to Toronto, I think the city is large enough and wealthy enough to support two teams both financially and with fan support.

As to Montreal, it's still significantly smaller than the GTA and the city isn't wealthy enough to support a 2nd team.

 

[Isles72]

Someone would need awfully deep pockets to ''pay off'' the leafs to enter their territory because I'm certain they would cry to the nhl for some type of compensation .

maybe Torontonians would actually be able to buy tickets to an nhl game if there was another team in the city instead of buying them from ''Vinny the scalper'' in front of the ACC .

IMO , a second team in Toronto would definatly fly , but it will never happen .

Montreal - As others have mentioned , get a team back in Quebec City to revive that awesome Habs-Nords rivalry

 

[kdb209]

Someone would need awfully deep pockets to ''pay off'' the leafs to enter their territory because I'm certain they would cry to the nhl for some type of compensation .

maybe Torontonians would actually be able to buy tickets to an nhl game if there was another team in the city instead of buying them from ''Vinny the scalper'' in front of the ACC .

IMO , a second team in Toronto would definatly fly , but it will never happen .

Montreal - As others have mentioned , get a team back in Quebec City to revive that awesome Habs-Nords rivalry

A new (or relocated) franchise would only have to pay teritorial compensation if the league says so. It would be quite possible for 16 teams to vote to remove any right to territorial exclusitivity.

It would be a wonderful experiment (and another creative solution to the big-market vs small-market problem) to allow multiple francises to expand or move to existing large markets. Let two (or three) teams play in Toronto, two in Detroit, in Philly, in Chcago. You would see new teams pick up a fan base pretty easily, especially in markets where the incumbent team is always sold out, or regional geographic rivalries could be exploited (North Side / South Side like the Sox and Cubs, etc). But look, the Mets grew a fan base. So did the Isles and Devils, etc.

Right now the big market teams have innate demographic advantages, why not make them share.

I know it would totally destroy the NHL as we know it, bit it would be interesting none the less. Maybe we can get the NBA to try it out.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

Financially, Toronto seems like it can hold another team. As much as it might be overshadowed by the Leafs, can it really be any worse than some of the markets the NHL is in today? I doubt it. A second Toronto team, a Quebec team or a Winnipeg team could each probably do just as well as some of the worst American markets right now.

 

[Puckclektr]

Hamilton can easily support a team and should have a team. Screw territorial rights. With the exeption of the last decade, in my lifetime Toronto has always thrown garbage on the ice because they know they are going to get support. Even in the last decade, do you honestly think Toronto has tried their best to put a winner together. Maybe the last two years. If there was another team in the area, they would have to compete for business with that team. The Golden Horseshoe has enough people to support two teams, three including Buffalo. Toronto-Oshawa etc. well over 5 million, Hamilton-KW-Niagara and area, close to two million. Then add the non-Leaf hockey fans on top of that from the Toronto area, and you have an even bigger market. I would drive down from Barrie to watch Hamilton games. It is closer than me driving to Buffalo. If a Hamilton team was named after the province, they would increase their fan base even more.

 

[zenator]

Montreal: no. They love the Habs, and Habs alone.

Toronto: yes. Much bigger market than Montreal (6 mil.). Leaf fans could go to Toronto2 team's games at half the price.

The team won't be in Hamilton. Buffalo depends on Niagara Falls, St Catherine's, Welland, and Hamilton for over half their fans. They would never allow it; unless it was the Sabres themselves that moved to Hamilton.

Toronto2 would have to be in downtown TO, west-waterfront CNE, Ontario Place area, or perhaps in Mississauga.

Even though it would be successful, I still don't see it happening.


Winnipeg is the only Canadian city that will get another NHL team. They have a new arena, and the city & province have already guaranteed to pay for the arena upgrade (+3000 seats +luxury boxes) needed if the NHL returns.

Quebec could support a team, but it's not in the culture of their governments to give tax breaks to sports teams, or help out building the needed new arena, so the NHL won't return to Quebec.