Continental Airlines looking to cut wages by 500 million to survive - sound familiar?

[eye]

When industries are in trouble employees need to be reorganized or downsized if they hope to stay employed. The NHL being a gate driven league operating at the pinnacle of acceptable ticket pricing with no major TV deal or expansion money coming in or any new building to generate extra revenue is in trouble. The league needs fixing, the owners have provided the only framework they are willing to negotiate within so the ball is totally in the players court if they hope to continue working in this league or have any concern at all about the future of the game and it's fans.


http://www.ktvu.com/travelgetaways/4062401/detail.html

Click to read more...

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I don't think you want to use the airline business to make your case. The employees in that industry often offer salary rollbacks to their employers to make it work. Hmm, sounds like the players framework is the same as the airline industry...are you sure you're supporting the right side in this dispute??

 

[eye]

I don't think you want to use the airline business to make your case. The employees in that industry often offer salary rollbacks to their employers to make it work. Hmm, sounds like the players framework is the same as the airline industry...are you sure you're supporting the right side in this dispute??

So what your saying salary rollbacks are fine in other industries but not in hockey. You see, I don't really have a side. I want what's best for hockey and the NHL. NHL ticket prices are already too high when compared to other hockey leagues and when you add the fact they don't get much if any TV revenue it only makes sense that they get their financial house in order.

I don't need the Leavitt or Forbes reports to figure out that hockey is in trouble. I've been saying it for years now that the league is broken and in need of major repair both on and off the ice. Not the 24% bandaid solution that Goodewow knew would be rejected but a meaningful longterm plan that will be win win for everyone including the fans on a moving forward basis.

To figure out if the 30 teams have a level playing field or at least a reasonable starting point you only need to look at the ticket prices that each team charges. Calculate ticket sales in each team's market which isn't that hard to do and you pretty much have the lions share of each teams revenue. It wouldn't be hard to come up with an agreeable formula to determine gross revenue but it takes 2 willing partners.

I want an NHL where scouting, development and coaching are the main determining factors for the success or lack there of for any franchise. Free Agency might have been good for the players, agents, lawyers and accountants but it has been bad for sports and it's fans. Buying a championship like the Yankees or Red Sox have done means very little to me. It's like the big bully on the street having his way.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

I don't think you want to use the airline business to make your case. The employees in that industry often offer salary rollbacks to their employers to make it work. Hmm, sounds like the players framework is the same as the airline industry...are you sure you're supporting the right side in this dispute??

And in most cases the employess become partners in the airlines and have salary controls built into the agreements. You are about to see another mid market carrier (US Air) disappear because the unions refuse to play ball and are looking out for only their own selfish needs, not the health and prosperity of the comapny and the industry itself. ATA just closed the doors for the same reasons. How many more examples do you need before you wake up and see the harsh reality that is today's economy?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

I want an NHL where scouting, development and coaching are the main determining factors for the success or lack there of for any franchise.

which is exactly what the last CBA was good at.

Buying a championship like the Yankees or Red Sox have done means very little to me. It's like the big bully on the street having his way.

and which championship in the NHL was bought ? and i dont hear any of hte owners in MLB complaning about the system.

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

And in most cases the employess become partners in the airlines and have salary controls built into the agreements. You are about to see another mid market carrier (US Air) disappear because the unions refuse to play ball and are looking out for only their own selfish needs, not the health and prosperity of the comapny and the industry itself. ATA just closed the doors for the same reasons. How many more examples do you need before you wake up and see the harsh reality that is today's economy?

ok, so then lets see the owners shut down their teams. it wont happen.

dr

 

[GKJ]

When industries are in trouble employees need to be reorganized or downsized if they hope to stay employed. The NHL being a gate driven league operating at the pinnacle of acceptable ticket pricing with no major TV deal or expansion money coming in or any new building to generate extra revenue is in trouble. The league needs fixing, the owners have provided the only framework they are willing to negotiate within so the ball is totally in the players court if they hope to continue working in this league or have any concern at all about the future of the game and it's fans.


http://www.ktvu.com/travelgetaways/4062401/detail.html

I want my 30 seconds back

 

[eye]

which is exactly what the last CBA was good at.


and which championship in the NHL was bought ? and i dont hear any of hte owners in MLB complaning about the system.

dr

Please. The last CBA or CBA's since the inception of Free Agency did little if anything to ensure that scouting, development and coaching would be the determining factors. Just ask Edmonton, Anaheim and other teams that were building good teams in the past few years only to lose key players to free agency. Teams do not have an equal starting point and all you need to do is look at ticket prices and attendence in each market and then look at taxes and the Canadian dollar to see why the Jets, the Nordique and almost the Senators had to move south of the border.

MLB owners and GM's complain all the time about their system. JP Richardi in Toronto (Canada's team) feels like the best his team can do each year is 3rd place under their current system. MLB will get it right next time or at least closer to. The Yankees and the Red Sox and a couple others were spared a long work stoppage because of 911. Make no mistake about it.

 

[eye]

ok, so then lets see the owners shut down their teams. it wont happen.

dr

It will happen if the owners don't get a new system within or close to the type of framework they are looking for. That's why they are taking this hard stand in the first place. Do you really think that owners want to gamble the way they are with hockey popularity and fan support if they felt there wasn't a serious need to do it?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Please. The last CBA or CBA's since the inception of Free Agency did little if anything to ensure that scouting, development and coaching would be the determining factors. Just ask Edmonton, Anaheim and other teams that were building good teams in the past few years only to lose key players to free agency. Teams do not have an equal starting point and all you need to do is look at ticket prices and attendence in each market and then look at taxes and the Canadian dollar to see why the Jets, the Nordique and almost the Senators had to move south of the border.

MLB owners and GM's complain all the time about their system. JP Richardi in Toronto (Canada's team) feels like the best his team can do each year is 3rd place under their current system. MLB will get it right next time or at least closer to. The Yankees and the Red Sox and a couple others were spared a long work stoppage because of 911. Make no mistake about it.

so then change the playoff format for baseball so more teams get in.

and the crap you just spouted about the NHL is just that. it is completly baseless.

dr

 

[ScottyBowman]

Please. The last CBA or CBA's since the inception of Free Agency did little if anything to ensure that scouting, development and coaching would be the determining factors. Just ask Edmonton, Anaheim and other teams that were building good teams in the past few years only to lose key players to free agency. Teams do not have an equal starting point and all you need to do is look at ticket prices and attendence in each market and then look at taxes and the Canadian dollar to see why the Jets, the Nordique and almost the Senators had to move south of the border.

MLB owners and GM's complain all the time about their system. JP Richardi in Toronto (Canada's team) feels like the best his team can do each year is 3rd place under their current system. MLB will get it right next time or at least closer to. The Yankees and the Red Sox and a couple others were spared a long work stoppage because of 911. Make no mistake about it.

But why should teams have an equal starting point? Life isn't fair. The problem is that hockey is in small Canadian cities that can not support a team. People think that Canada has a right to have 10 teams in a country of 30 mil people. They don't. Montreal/Toronto/Vancouver and one more team should be enough.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

It will happen if the owners don't get a new system within or close to the type of framework they are looking for.

explain how they can do this without flushing their 100m investment down the toilet ?

dr

 

[eye]

explain how they can do this without flushing their 100m investment down the toilet ?

dr

How much of their own money do you think that most owners especially the 24 new owners have invested? Most if not all of them likely run their hockey franchises seperate from other business operations so it wouldn't be hard for them to either sell at a reduced price or go bankrupt losing only pennies on the dollar. New owners came into this league with the word of Bettman that some form of cost certainty would be part of their next CBA and when the NHL resumes play they will have it. You will see players and agents starting to put a lot of pressure on Goodenow this coming week. This is the most important week in the history of the NHL. If players don't speak up they stand to lose much of their potential earning power and will have to come back with their tails tucked between their legs which won't be a good thing for all concerned.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

How much of their own moeny do you think that most owners especially the 24 new owners have invested? Most if not all of them likely run their hockey franchises seperate from other business operations so it wouldn't be hard for them to either sell at a reduced price or go bankrupt losing only pennies on the dollar.

a) if they havent put much in, then whats their whining about
b) if they sell at a reduced price, it doesnt mean the team is lost, just that owner.

sayonara i say. better to lose the owners than support this lockout.

dr

 

[ScottyBowman]

How much of their own moeny do you think that most owners especially the 24 new owners have invested? Most if not all of them likely run their hockey franchises seperate from other business operations so it wouldn't be hard for them to either sell at a reduced price or go bankrupt losing only pennies on the dollar.

What about an owner like Karmanos who only moved to Carolina because he got to control a new arena? He knew damn well that people down their don't watch hockey. Why should the league prop up his team when he could have moved to a northern city like Seattle or Portland where hockey stood a better chance.

 

[eye]

What about an owner like Karmanos who only moved to Carolina because he got to control a new arena? He knew damn well that people down their don't watch hockey. Why should the league prop up his team when he could have moved to a northern city like Seattle or Portland where hockey stood a better chance.

Carolina fans looked pretty good to me when they were winning. Maybe all they need is an equal opportunity to compete with the big dogs on a consistent going forward basis. The fans are there and it takes time to grow the game. Nashville went from having 500 kids playing hockey before the Preds arrived to 5000 with 17 High School teams since they arrived. People are being unreasonable if they think hockey will have an instant success. Give this game time to grow. More and more people will become faimiliar with the game and once the growing number of american kids grow up and get their kids into it the game will grow. NBC have have terrific plans on how to sell the game and with HDTV and some improved broadcasting, better time slots etc. the game of hockey is good enough to gain fans on a daily basis.

 

[nyr7andcounting]

And in most cases the employess become partners in the airlines and have salary controls built into the agreements. You are about to see another mid market carrier (US Air) disappear because the unions refuse to play ball and are looking out for only their own selfish needs, not the health and prosperity of the comapny and the industry itself. ATA just closed the doors for the same reasons. How many more examples do you need before you wake up and see the harsh reality that is today's economy?

OK...so why won't the NHL build salary controls in their system? You can't tell me that airlines are making "caps", they reach a level of payroll that works for them through the kinds of things that translate to the NHL putting in an entry level cap, getting rid of the 10% auto raise for RFA's, salary rollbacks etc. In no company, in any industry, is a hard salary cap needed in order to enforce salaries.

 

[CarlRacki]

OK...so why won't the NHL build salary controls in their system? You can't tell me that airlines are making "caps", they reach a level of payroll that works for them through the kinds of things that translate to the NHL putting in an entry level cap, getting rid of the 10% auto raise for RFA's, salary rollbacks etc. In no company, in any industry, is a hard salary cap needed in order to enforce salaries.

Actually, almost every industry has a "cap" for labor, though it more typically extends to positions rather than the company labor pool as a whole. For example, an airline will have a salary range - with a minimum and maximum - for its mechanics. A school system will have salary ranges for teachers. A factory will have salary ranges for machine operators.
This is most definitely a form of cost certainty.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Am I the only person that sees the NHL as the goose that lays golden eggs for the players? On average, they can make a TON more playing hockey in the NHL than they can in any other league on the planet, even with a salary cap.

Same thing with the Airlines. If Continental goes out of business, the pilots that are pulling down on average of $250K per year are going to be looking for jobs with FedEx (or the equivelant) for a fraction of that salary. Isn't it better to take a 20% cut on a very substantial salary than to have to go somewhere else and take a 50% pay-cut?

 

[nyr7andcounting]

Am I the only person that sees the NHL as the goose that lays golden eggs for the players? On average, they can make a TON more playing hockey in the NHL than they can in any other league on the planet, even with a salary cap.

Same thing with the Airlines. If Continental goes out of business, the pilots that are pulling down on average of $250K per year are going to be looking for jobs with FedEx (or the equivelant) for a fraction of that salary. Isn't it better to take a 20% cut on a very substantial salary than to have to go somewhere else and take a 50% pay-cut?

Yes obviously, which is why the players were willing to offer a 24% pay cut.

 

[Gary]

But why should teams have an equal starting point? Life isn't fair. The problem is that hockey is in small Canadian cities that can not support a team. People think that Canada has a right to have 10 teams in a country of 30 mil people. They don't. Montreal/Toronto/Vancouver and one more team should be enough.

Canada is the hockey pinnacle of the world...We eat, breathe and sleep hockey...In the U.S. they dont give a damn about the sport in most cases...So what you're saying in essense is that we should let hockey fold where it's popular so that rich owners in the U.S. can lose lots of $$$ on franchises and not even fill buildings?. I'd think it's alot more sense to restructure to be economically viable where hockey lives, and then remarket the product in the U.S. so that the league is strong in BOTH countries...one man's oppinion.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Carolina fans looked pretty good to me when they were winning. Maybe all they need is an equal opportunity to compete with the big dogs on a consistent going forward basis. The fans are there and it takes time to grow the game. Nashville went from having 500 kids playing hockey before the Preds arrived to 5000 with 17 High School teams since they arrived. People are being unreasonable if they think hockey will have an instant success. Give this game time to grow. More and more people will become faimiliar with the game and once the growing number of american kids grow up and get their kids into it the game will grow. NBC have have terrific plans on how to sell the game and with HDTV and some improved broadcasting, better time slots etc. the game of hockey is good enough to gain fans on a daily basis.

I bet Bettman said the same thing 12 years ago. You have this belief that American kids will watch hockey when myself being a seasoned fan can't stand a lot of these games. HDTV nor giving out sacks of $100 bills will improve the game. The only way is for rule changes and goalie equipment to be reduced. Unfortunately, I have yet to hear any owner or player propose this. The NHL deserves their fate because they put out a piss poor product.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Canada is the hockey pinnacle of the world...We eat, breathe and sleep hockey...In the U.S. they dont give a damn about the sport in most cases...So what you're saying in essense is that we should let hockey fold where it's popular so that rich owners in the U.S. can lose lots of $$$ on franchises and not even fill buildings?. I'd think it's alot more sense to restructure to be economically viable where hockey lives, and then remarket the product in the U.S. so that the league is strong in BOTH countries...one man's oppinion.

Unfortunately popular doesn't equal $$$

 

[Steve L*]

Yes obviously, which is why the players were willing to offer a 24% pay cut.

Their salaries would be back to what they were in 2 to 3 years, no company in financial trouble would accept that.

However, they are willing to accept a 90+% paycut rather than have a 24% paycut and keep it there, doesnt make sense to me.

If your company said they wanted you to take a paycut of 24% and keep it at that level, would you accept or find a job with less than 10% of your current earnings?

 

[nyr7andcounting]

Their salaries would be back to what they were in 2 to 3 years, no company in financial trouble would accept that.

However, they are willing to accept a 90+% paycut rather than have a 24% paycut and keep it there, doesnt make sense to me.

If your company said they wanted you to take a paycut of 24% and keep it at that level, would you accept or find a job with less than 10% of your current earnings?

Salaries won't be back to what they were in 2 to 3 years if you implement a system that prevents inflation of salaries. Why do you say that salaries would be back at their current level? Because of salary triggers, right? Well that's my point. If you fix the salary triggers which are causing the problems than essentially salaries should be able to stay at the same level from year to year. So once you cut salaries to equal a certain % of the net revenue, they shouldn't rise and the league should be fine. I posted in another thread more in depth, so I won't go into it here, but the bottom line is a hard cap isn't the one and only way to keep salaries at a certain level, yet the NHL is acting as it is simply because that's the system that benefits owners the most.