Complete statistical team organization rankings

[degroat*]

Ok, now I'm mad.

I'm sorry to say that I'm not going to lose sleep over you being mad.

You little whining self obsessed Blues fans, you really refuse to get a clue.

You claim that the rankings are wrong. We disagree (for the most part). We've given you ample opportunity to give us 'a clue'. But somehow you seem to be the clueless one because you know very little about the Blues prospects. Or, at least that's all we could possibly assume given the fact that you've done nothing to back up your claims that the Blues prospects aren't rated accurately.

You also know nothing about statistics.

If you'd like we can compare college transcripts.

One thing is for sure, none of the statistics classes I ever took taught us to not include samples that we didn't like.

Want to know why I am waiting for a complete reranking by a better source?

Where theres smoke theres fire. I can only confirm that the glaringly obvious errors are wrong. Whomever rated these players either did it with some glaring personal bias (unlikely), or they graded the prospects on a different basis than did everyone else. Either way, the entire prospect ranking is likely skewed.

Every single person on this site does their rankings in a different way and the Blues are the only one your didn't include. How about you do us all a favor.. next time you decide to put together one of these lists, either include all the teams or don't waste everyone's time because inserting your personal opinion into the rankings makes them worthless.

That said, there is no point in reranking the Blues (or any of the teams), because right now HF is in the process of reranking every single organization with the same system. When I ranked the organizations for the first time, only the noted teams were ranked using the ABC system. Now, nearly half the teams are ranked that way

And when they all are re-done and the Blues are still in the top 10 are you still going to leave them off?

So stop whining like babies and suck it up.

Funny. Sure sounds like you're the one whining to me.

 

[Senor Rational]

That's all I ask for. Three examples for both types. I have no doubt that they dominated juniors. However, most NHL players do dominate juniors. Ian Laperriere dominated juniors. Eric Belanger dominated juniors. Alas, they did not become first-liners.

Fair enough Sam, thank you for being rational about this atleast.

If you've seen Mcclement play, he's got speed to burn. He looks more of a defensive minded forward then your sexy goal getter. People are thinking...3rd, 4rth line center. But then he can shut down an opponents top line while still being able to keep puck possession and pressure and throwing around his body. An elite checker...who does this sound like? Mike Peca, a elite checking center with offensive upside who is a second line center. Hence Mcclement = 7 for second line potential. Its not about his production in terms of offence its more his production based on activity (dont get me wrong, if he isnt getting 55+ pts a year he'll be demoted to the third or fourth line with the Blues).

Second, we;ve got Sejna. Short, but agilt and with quick hands. He was an alternative captian at his college. He is ranked with an 8 due to his potential. In his first NHL game he played on the first line with KT and Demitra. In parts of the season he played on the second line with Doug Weight. Should he have continued to develop at a quicker pace he couldve have been a first line player by his prime.

I really think our writer based his ranking more on potential and NHL readiness then what their careers might become. You never know, maybe Schwartz will dominate this year and he could be a franchise goalie. Who knows, maybe Alexandrov stops working so hard and he becomes a bust. We dont know what prospects will be and the grades are given to what they will likely develop as.

Maybe Stl shouldve gone by the letter grades.

Sejna= 8b-
Mcclement=7b+
Soderberg=8b-
Zhakarov= 8C
Shotov = 8b

 

[Senor Rational]

DownfromNJ, all us Blues fans are asking for is why you think are rankings are wrong. Other then the fact we, the blues, just cant have so many prospects with first line <b>potential?</b> A players potential does not mean what he will become. Remember Alexander Diagle?

Aside from your obvouis disliking of the blues, just post some evidence and I'll shut my yapper.

 

[Enoch]

DownfromNJ, all us Blues fans are asking for is why you think are rankings are wrong. Other then the fact we, the blues, just cant have so many prospects with first line <b>potential?</b> A players potential does not mean what he will become. Remember Alexander Diagle?

Aside from your obvouis disliking of the blues, just post some evidence and I'll shut my yapper.

I'll take a shot or two at some of the ratings. I absolutely do not believe Peter Sejna has first line potential. I think he is a 7, 7.5 at best, and tack a C rating along with that. I believe he will end up being a lower tier 2nd line forward/3rd line forward. His play last year was anything but what I expected, and he is not getting any younger...I also disagree with giving Alexei Shkotov an 8 rating. He has too many defeciencies in his game, and a size disadavantage, for me to see him taking his talent onto a first line. I see him in the same mold as Sejna...a 7, 7.5 at best, with a C rating tacked on. He has an average shot, his skating breaks down in the high-traffic areas, and he has yet to find a way to overcome his lack of size defensively . When you have average areas in your offensive playbook, I do not feel like you should be rated as a top line forward. In comparison, the Predators have Alexander Radulov listed as a 7.5 C, and he is both more talented and has a much larger frame to grow into. Does that make sense? Konstantin Zakharov, I know hardly anything about, so I'll pass on making an attempt discussing him. You guys obviously know more about your prospects, so unless I honestly know something about them.....I'll try not to pass judgement.

Here are a few more I disagree with: Dennis Wideman as a 6.5.....I think he should be a 4 or 5. I can never see him as a 4/5 dman.....more like a 7th dman who recieves call up time from the minors.

Other than that, I will say that St. Louis's rankings are quite high. Their is certainly talent there, but, almost everyone there is pro-rated to play in the NHL....and frankly I just don't see that happening. Hopefully the rerating of these guys will fix that problem, but I do not think as much consideration as could have been taken....considering player's weaknesses....was factored into the potential rating. Take that for what its worth.

 

[Hasbro]

Question DFNJ.

On the Avs did you rate Wolski?

 

[DownFromNJ]

On the Avs did you rate Wolski?

Unfortunately, no. The Avs page does not list his rating.

 

[degroat*]

In comparison, the Predators have Alexander Radulov listed as a 7.5 C, and he is both more talented and has a much larger frame to grow into.

Sorry if I find it hard to believe that you've seen enough of Shkotov and especially Radulov to determine which one has more talent.

 

[DownFromNJ]

DownfromNJ, all us Blues fans are asking for is why you think are rankings are wrong. Other then the fact we, the blues, just cant have so many prospects with first line <b>potential?</b> A players potential does not mean what he will become. Remember Alexander Diagle?

Thats why we have the letter grade system. However, when assigning a numerical value to a player, you have to take into account the letter (or what the letter means).

Adrian Foster may be a 7.5-8 potential (the kid has skills), but he probably deserves a D ratings (he's been healthy for like 70 games in 3 years). Therefore, on my scale, he wouldn't get a 7.5-8 rating, he might get a 6 or lower.

 

[Other Dave]

You don't have access to Bacashihua's stats from this season? You don't have access to Bacashihua's bio at the Toronto Star/Hockey Forecaster site?

Doesn't that site project Peter Sejna as a third-liner?

 

[210]

The Peter Sejna that played in the NHL and when he first got to the AHL would be ranked very low....the one that ended the season certainly has 1st line NHL potential.

The "problem" with Sejna was he scored a nice goal in a meaningless NHL game vs Roy, and the entire world had this kid ready to step in and be a number 2 LW right then. Well, as Blues fans on this and other boards will tell you, not quite the entire world.

I had this kid pegged for the AHL from last June, and when he started the season in the NHL I was not shy at saying it was a huge mistake. And I was right. Sejna will be a star in the NHL soneday. It might not be 04-05, and it might not be 05-06, but this kid has all the tools and smarts to be a perennial all star.

And my knowledge is first hand--I don't need to rely on another's account.

 

[210]

Comparable players for McClement would be Tim Brent and Petr Kanko.

Hi Sam, I thank you for your rational, well thought out comparison--the fact I disagree with it not withstanding.

As someone else noted, I'd compare McClement's style of play and potential abilities with Mike Peca, and for that I see McClement's ranking as being correct.

 

[Chaos]

Since you decided to not include St. Louis because you thought they had a few guys rated "too high", Im wondering why you didnt do that with your own NJ Devils........having Parise an 8.5A, while Evgeni Malkin is an 8.5B...does anyone else think thats just a little out of whack?

 

[Enoch]

Sorry if I find it hard to believe that you've seen enough of Shkotov and especially Radulov to determine which one has more talent.

No, I haven't, but neither have you. There is a reason Radulov was considered top 3 in terms of offensive talent in the 2004 draft, and selected 15 overall whereas Shkotov went 48th overall (albeit in a deeper draft), and was at the time a large surprise. I'm not saying Shkotov doesn't have talent, but even reading the scouting reports that I have seen, he has some offensive weaknesses, not to mention a lack of size, and that instantly lowers his potential to me. I think some people get caught up in the potential thing in the wrong perspective. A player can have world-class talent in a few areas, but also be lazy, not good in traffic areas, and possess some suprirsingly average areas even in their strong suit (for Shkotov its supposedly his shot ), which lowers their overall potential, IMO. For this reason, I find it hard to believe that he does have first line potential, and I feel a 7 C (if your extremely generous 7.5 C) is more reasonable. To be blunt, thats not a bad thing. Anyone that has an average chance at becoming a second line scoring threat is a good prospect...

 

[degroat*]

I haven't seen Radulov at all which is why I haven't commented on him.

 

[DownFromNJ]

Since you decided to not include St. Louis because you thought they had a few guys rated "too high", Im wondering why you didnt do that with your own NJ Devils........having Parise an 8.5A, while Evgeni Malkin is an 8.5B...does anyone else think thats just a little out of whack?

Probably because the rankings have been changed since I did the ranking.

Parise was an 8.5, no letter when I ranked it.

Btw, I'm working on some stats on Parise and the NCAA in general, and you'd be surprised how good this kid is. Of course, I have never watched Malkin play nor do I know much about the Russian Super League, but 8.5B seems like a good rating.

Btw I'm in open protest to any A rating above 8, and even the 8s are disputable.

 

[Senor Rational]

Ive seen Parise play a few teams...he spells heart.

What were we arguing about again? :donno:

 

[210]

The "over rated" Blues' prospects just won the Prospects tourney again...

Tuesday, September 14
Blues 4 vs. Lightning 3
Traverse City, MI- The St. Louis Blues captured their fourth Prospects Tournament title after defeating the Tampa Bay Lightning 4-3 on Tuesday afternoon. Alexei Shkotov, coming off a hat trick performance on Monday night, scored the game-winner midway through the third period to seal the victory.

St. Louis registered the games first goal as Dale Mahovsky scored at the 18:52 mark of the first period. The Lightning stormed back in the second period with three unanswered goals and outshot the Blues 12-8.

Troy Riddle, a University of Minnesota product and St. Louis’ fourth round selection in the 2000 draft, notched a goal 14 seconds into the third period to cut Tampa Bay’s lead to 3-2. Just 24 seconds later, Riddle again would find the back of the net as he skated down the left wing and shot just inside the far side post at the 38 second mark. At 9:17 of the third, Shkotov buried a shot just under the crossbar, recording his fourth goal of the tournament and the game-winning goal. Goaltender Chris Beckford-Tseu, playing in his second game for the Blues, turned away 28 of 31 Lightning shots to record the victory.

St. Louis posted a 3-1-0 record and have competed in the Prospects Tournament since 1998, capturing four titles in seven years.

 

[clefty]

The "over rated" Blues' prospects just won the Prospects tourney again...

So what?

 

[SneakerPimp82]

So what?

Yea, Shkotov 4 goals in 2 games, and he doesn't have first line potential.

 

[Chaos]

Yea, Shkotov 4 goals in 2 games, and he doesn't have first line potential.

Yes...because 4 goals in 2 games against many players who will never play in the NHL is a sure bet of his potential ...Just remember Jon Sim had a 4 goal game against Colorado in the preseason a few years back.

 

[NYRangers]

Yea, Shkotov 4 goals in 2 games, and he doesn't have first line potential.

Pock had 4 points in 6 games. Therefore he is a franchise player..........................................................................................................................................exactly.

 

[degroat*]

SneakerPimp82, don't worry about it. Shkotov isn't highly rated because he wasn't drafted by the Wings, a la Hudler.

 

[Enoch]

Just a question, which teams participate in the Prospects tournament, because I have been unaware of Nashvilles participation in any....much less quite a few other teams. Is it a select few, or am I just out of the loop?

From the looks of it, there are only 3 teams participating, which would make the tournament win not that important in comparison to the whole of the NHL. It may prove that the Blues have better prospects than the Lightining or Red Wings.......but I could have already told you that anyways.

 

[degroat*]

Washington and Atlanta normally play but dropped out this year.

 

[King'sPawn]

Just a question, which teams participate in the Prospects tournament, because I have been unaware of Nashvilles participation in any....much less quite a few other teams. Is it a select few, or am I just out of the loop?

From the looks of it, there are only 3 teams participating, which would make the tournament win not that important in comparison to the whole of the NHL. It may prove that the Blues have better prospects than the Lightining or Red Wings.......but I could have already told you that anyways.

A few groups of teams hold prospect tournies against each other. The Kings, Ducks, Yotes, and Sharks just had their own prospect tourney. The order of that one was:
Ducks
Kings
Sharks
Yotes

But it's unfair to all four organizations, because any skilled Euros or college players were likely NOT on the team. The Kings only had one or two defensive prospects... some of the people who play aren't even a part of the organization. I don't know enough about the other teams, but the Kings had a few of their better prospects not present (Tukonen, Pushkarev, Petiot, Karlsson, Murray). So, for all I know, Phoenix could have the best group of prospects among the four.

I don't know enough about the Blues to judge how good their prospects are, so I'll reserve judgment. The tourney isn't a very reliable assessment of the the team's prospect depth, when used alone.

I'll concede that it's probably the lack of St. Louis fans on these boards that make me ignorant on their prospects. Lord knows I know everything about Kastitsyn except maybe what color his jock is.