Complete statistical team organization rankings

[Dr GLU]

And what, exactly, about that bio justifies Bacashihua being a "6.5 at best?" Surely it's not the quote from former Stanley Cup winner Bob Gainey, where he explains that his goalie scout, former NHL goalie Tim Bernhardt, sees aspects of a potential NHL starter in Bacashihua...

No, those guys couldn't possibly know what they're talkinng about, could they? But a guy writes a profile a year ago (and who, I don't believe, even writes for HF any more), and says that Bacashihua is a disappointment, and that's gospel to you?

Well sorry if you didn't like my assessment of Bacashihua. From what I observed in camp and reports from Utah that I had at that time, Bacashihua was indeed not living up to his potential. He lost his starting job to Mike Smith, a fifth rounder in the same draft, the year before last. And even as recently as this November, he was struggling and in danger of being relegated to an AHL backup. In fact, he didn't really even start to turn the corner until the second half of this year. I never denied that Bacashihua had the raw talent to be a starter nor the ability to play well in big games. What I did question was whether he had the consistency to be a starter, and truthfully, he's done nothing yet to dispel those doubts. If he could put up a whole AHL season where he was a solid to spectacular starter, then I'd have been higher on him. And you know as well as I that just because a GM and scout endorse a player doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to be right on their assessment. They do have more resources, but they're human too.

Still, I fail to see why my not writing for HF anymore should even call doubt on my analysis of Bacashihua's talent and potential, especially since I left of my own free will because I had a college education that I needed more time for. That's pretty close to character assassination, and I certainly don't appreciate that.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

2. The Blues system is a LOT better than anyone gives it credit for. If this was the farm system of say, Detroit, they'd be ranked in the top 5.

Give me the name of one person that would rank Detroit in the top 5 for prospects.

I think they have a better crop than most, and i still wouldn't rank them higher than 14/15.

 

[210]

Give me the name of one person that would rank Detroit in the top 5 for prospects.

I think they have a better crop than most, and i still wouldn't rank them higher than 14/15.

He's saying that if the Blues and Red Wings were to switch prospect lists the Red Wings would be listed in the Top 5.

And he's right.

 

[dem]

Wow.
Some of you Blues fans might be insane. Blues have a couple good goalies. Then.... uh... yeah.
Sejna will never be a player. Who else is there?? Jay Mclement(sp)? I mean.. give me a break. This team is NOT in the top 10.

 

[Pepper]

Looking at the list in the first post of this topic (and I know the list is partly inaccurate because not everyone has re-ranked the prospects according to new criteria), Vancouver immediately strikes as way too high. IMHO they are definetly a bottom 15, probably bottom 10 (~22nd-25th).

 

[degroat*]

Wow.
Some of you Blues fans might be insane. Blues have a couple good goalies. Then.... uh... yeah.
Sejna will never be a player. Who else is there?? Jay Mclement(sp)? I mean.. give me a break. This team is NOT in the top 10.

If you aren't aware of who else there is then you probably shouldn't be commenting on the Blues farm system.

Just a friendly recommendation...

Edit: One more thing... if you don't know who else there is, I hope you don't mind if I write your analysis of Sejna of as hogwash spouted off by someone that has no clue what they're talking about.

 

[dem]

Obviously I know who else there is.. but theyre simply not very impressive. The fact that SEJNA is considered a top prospect should tell you something. Sejna looked like CRAP last year.

 

[kimzey59]

Give me the name of one person that would rank Detroit in the top 5 for prospects.

I think they have a better crop than most, and i still wouldn't rank them higher than 14/15.

What he is saying is that if the Blues had a larger fan base to hype thier prospects we would probably be ranked among the top 10 teams in the league right now. And he is 100 % right in that assesment. The Blues have a LOT of good prospects right now BUT, beacuse they don't get any hype, they are overlooked and degraded because they belong to a team with a small fan base(on these forums).

 

[DownFromNJ]

Thats fine. I didn't say that the Blues prospects sucked. But the Blues are NOT far and away the top organization, as those rankings would have represented.

 

[Chaos]

What he is saying is that if the Blues had a larger fan base to hype thier prospects we would probably be ranked among the top 10 teams in the league right now. And he is 100 % right in that assesment. The Blues have a LOT of good prospects right now BUT, beacuse they don't get any hype, they are overlooked and degraded because they belong to a team with a small fan base(on these forums).

As a Stars fan on these boards, I know exactly how you feel and exactly what your talking about.

 

[210]

But the Blues are NOT far and away the top organization, as those rankings would have represented.

Can I presume that statement is based upon your knowledge of the Blues prospects?

 

[DownFromNJ]

Considering that the Blues were the only organization not to simply make sense , yes.


Look at the top rankings. Washington just sold away it's entire team and got the #1 overall pick. Atlanta has Lehtonen, Coburn, and a strong system behind them. New York: see Washington. I find it tough to believe that St. Louis can outmatch any of these clubs.

 

[montreal]

What he is saying is that if the Blues had a larger fan base to hype thier prospects we would probably be ranked among the top 10 teams in the league right now. And he is 100 % right in that assesment. The Blues have a LOT of good prospects right now BUT, beacuse they don't get any hype, they are overlooked and degraded because they belong to a team with a small fan base(on these forums).

That's not true at all if your talking about the organizational rankings that come out from HF. Those rankings have nothing to do with the fan base and are done by a small group of people at HF, so it doesn't go by fan base, although I wasn't apart of the organizational rankings, so I'm not 100% sure how they came up with their rankings, I can bet money that they didn't go by who had the bigger fan base. The rankings have nothing to do with these boards.

 

[degroat*]

Obviously I know who else there is.. but theyre simply not very impressive. The fact that SEJNA is considered a top prospect should tell you something. Sejna looked like CRAP last year.

First of all, let's assume you actually saw every game that Sejna played last year. Since when is a player's career determined by his first TWENTY games?

Now, let's get to reality... you MAYBE saw 4 of his games at the NHL level and the fact your pretending to know something about him based on the LITTLE that you saw him is hillarious.

The people that actually saw Sejna in Worcester know how spectacular he was. If you want some input from someone who actually knows what he's talking about I'd suggest asking 210 for an evaluation.

Now... let's move on to this business about Sejna being the top Blues prospect.

There is one reason and only one reason why Sejna is considered the top Blues prospect right now... because he's the most NHL ready. Instead of insulting the Blues for having Sejna has their top prospect you should be pointing out how great it is that the Blues editor actually takes NHL readiness into consideration when determining his rankings.

Next... your comment about other Blues prospects not being very impressive.

Since you claim to know so much, let's hear it.

What Blues prospects have you seen play?
What are their strengths?
What are their weaknesses?

If you are as knowledgeable as you present yourself as, then I'm sure we'd appreciate your input.

 

[SneakerPimp82]

And, since you've admitted in this thread that you don't know much about the Blues' prospects, how do you justify your stance that the Blues' prospect rankings are "way off?" Because no other team has more than one forward prospect ranked as an 8? No other team has Sejna, Soderberg and Shkotov, either.

There are still plenty of people around who believe in Sejna's potential, especially since his performance down the stretch after being sent to Worcester. Soderberg is considered a second-round "steal" by virtually every impartial observer I've seen, and was ranked as a first-round selection by several teams. Shkotov, after holding his own for two years against veterans in the Russian elite league, came to North America this season and dominated among his peers and age group in the "Q."

The Blues have gotten zero respect for their prospects and their prospect development system for a decade -- with good reason, in some cases. But they've just had quite probably their two best drafts ever, and a number of their better young players -- NHL'ers like Backman and Jackman, as well as Sejna, Jay McClement, Trevor Byrne, John Pohl and Curtis Sanford -- aren't even products of those drafts.

Don't forget Viktor Alexandrov, ranked 8th overall among Europeans(higher than Radulov, Korpikoski) before the draft, and a steal in the 3rd round. Not to mention Zakharov, who did very well in the Q last year. And still no respect for Blues prospects.

 

[SneakerPimp82]

That's not true at all if your talking about the organizational rankings that come out from HF. Those rankings have nothing to do with the fan base and are done by a small group of people at HF, so it doesn't go by fan base, although I wasn't apart of the organizational rankings, so I'm not 100% sure how they came up with their rankings, I can bet money that they didn't go by who had the bigger fan base. The rankings have nothing to do with these boards.

But hype goes into ranking prospects, and the fanbase helps produce that hype. For instance, Marek Schwarz was hyped a lot before the draft, and I saw many on here touting him as the best goalie in the draft, or at least equal to Montoya; along with many publications saying the same. Of course as a Blues prospect, Schwarz been overshadowed by Montoya and all of a sudden he isn't worthy of holding Alvaro's jock strap. And I'm willing to bet that this hype will effect how Schwarz is rated by the HF writers, consequently affecting the Blues' overall organizational ranking.

 

[210]

Considering that the Blues were the only organization not to simply make sense , yes.

Your answer to the question I asked is "no", because you have no direct knowledge of the Blues prospects.

All you can say is that the Blues list must be wrong because there's no way it can be #1, but you've not shown--nor has anyone else in this thread--what player rankings are wrong and what they should be. And if someone would like to do that they'd better be ready to defend their new rankings by answering how they got those numbers.

 

[degroat*]

Your answer to the question I asked is "no", because you have no direct knowledge of the Blues prospects.

All you can say is that the Blues list must be wrong because there's no way it can be #1, but you've not shown--nor has anyone else in this thread--what player rankings are wrong and what they should be. And if someone would like to do that they'd better be ready to defend their new rankings by answering how they got those numbers.

I'd still like to here his explanation for the Blues still being in the top 5 after I not only fixed the numbers he complained about but fixed some others that might have been a little too high.

 

[DownFromNJ]

Whine all you want, I'm not ranking the Blues until they are consistant with the other organizations.

 

[210]

Whine all you want, I'm not ranking the Blues until they are consistant with the other organizations.

You'll first have to prove that they aren't ranked consistantly--simply saying they aren't doesn't make it true.

 

[degroat*]

Whine all you want, I'm not ranking the Blues until they are consistant with the other organizations.

I'd still like to hear your explanation for the Blues still being in the top 5 after I not only fixed the numbers you complained about but fixed some others that might have been a little too high.

 

[SneakerPimp82]

You'll first have to prove that they aren't ranked consistantly--simply saying they aren't doesn't make it true.

Don't give him the pleasure, he's enjoying all the attention and has no intention of giving a valid reason why the Blues prospect rankings are so "out of whack."

 

[210]

Don't give him the pleasure, he's enjoying all the attention and has no intention of giving a valid reason why the Blues prospect rankings are so "out of whack."

You and I both know that, but everytime he posts and we reply it bumps the thread back to the top of the list.

And then eventually everyone will know it.

 

[DownFromNJ]

Ok, now I'm mad.

You little whining self obsessed Blues fans, you really refuse to get a clue. You also know nothing about statistics. Want to know why I am waiting for a complete reranking by a better source?

Where theres smoke theres fire. I can only confirm that the glaringly obvious errors are wrong. Whomever rated these players either did it with some glaring personal bias (unlikely), or they graded the prospects on a different basis than did everyone else. Either way, the entire prospect ranking is likely skewed.

That said, there is no point in reranking the Blues (or any of the teams), because right now HF is in the process of reranking every single organization with the same system. When I ranked the organizations for the first time, only the noted teams were ranked using the ABC system. Now, nearly half the teams are ranked that way.

So stop whining like babies and suck it up.

 

[Sam]

You'll first have to prove that they aren't ranked consistantly--simply saying they aren't doesn't make it true.

okay. I'll bite and do comparables for two players Stich mentioned should be changed, McClement and Sejna.

Comparable players for McClement would be Tim Brent and Petr Kanko.

From what I've seen (based on most of the 2002 and 2003 WJHC, last year's Pacific Rookie Tournament, and Kings' prospects and training camps), they all project as third-liners.

Here are the stats for their comparable years (their second years in the OHL after being drafted, 2002-03 for McClement and 2003-04 for Brent and Kanko.
McClement had 22 goals and 27 assists in 45 games (a bit less than 1.1 PPG).
Brent had 26 goals and 41 assists in 53 games (a bit more than 1.25 PPG).
Kanko had 26 goals and 42 assists in 55 games (a bit less than 1.25 PPG).

Yet, McClement is rated as a 7 while Brent is a 6.5 and Kanko a 6.


Now for Sejna (height/weight according to HF team pages).

Peter Sejna (8.0)
Height/Weight: 5-11/198
DOB: 10/05/79
Age: 24
2003-04 AHL Stats: 59GP, 12G, 29A, 41P

Josef Balej (7.5)
Height/Weight: 6-0/187
DOB: 2/22/82
Age: 22
2003-04 AHL Stats: 60GP, 26G, 36A, 62P

Michael Cammalleri (7.5)
Height/Weight: 5-9/180
DOB: 6/08/82
Age: 22
2003-04 AHL Stats: 41GP, 20G, 19A, 39P

Tomas Plekanec (7.5)
Height/Weight: 5-10/198
DOB: 10/31/82
Age: 21
2003-04 AHL Stats: 74GP, 23G, 43A, 66P

Jason Pominville (7.0)
Height/Weight: 5-11/174
DOB: 11/30/82
Age: 21
2003-04 AHL Stats: 66GP, 34G, 30A, 64P



Now it's your turn. Convince me that Zakharov and Shkotov deserve their 8 ratings as future first-liners, which seem a bit high given last year's production.
Zakharov had 33 goals and 16 assists in 55 games played in the QMJHL, his first year after being drafted. The goal total is nice but the PPG is below .9.
Shkotov had 27 goals and 40 assists in 43 games (around 1.55 PPG) played in the QMJHL, his second year after being drafted.

All I want is for you to provide me with three examples of players who became first liners in the NHL for each of the following:
1)a player with less than a PPG in the QMJHL in his first year after being drafted
2)a sub 6-foot player with around 1.55 PPG in the QMJHL in his second year after being drafted

That's all I ask for. Three examples for both types. I have no doubt that they dominated juniors. However, most NHL players do dominate juniors. Ian Laperriere dominated juniors. Eric Belanger dominated juniors. Alas, they did not become first-liners.