Complete statistical team organization rankings

[Prussian_Blue]

By virtue of his bio, he's at best a 6.5

You mean this bio here...

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect.php?pid=2224

... that's over a year old?

Don't be fooled by the "Profile last updated 2004-08-19" blurb. The only "update" done to the profile at that time was the addition of the new ranking. The body of the bio, and the statistics in it, are from 2003.

And what, exactly, about that bio justifies Bacashihua being a "6.5 at best?" Surely it's not the quote from former Stanley Cup winner Bob Gainey, where he explains that his goalie scout, former NHL goalie Tim Bernhardt, sees aspects of a potential NHL starter in Bacashihua...

No, those guys couldn't possibly know what they're talkinng about, could they? But a guy writes a profile a year ago (and who, I don't believe, even writes for HF any more), and says that Bacashihua is a disappointment, and that's gospel to you?

And, since you've admitted in this thread that you don't know much about the Blues' prospects, how do you justify your stance that the Blues' prospect rankings are "way off?" Because no other team has more than one forward prospect ranked as an 8? No other team has Sejna, Soderberg and Shkotov, either.

There are still plenty of people around who believe in Sejna's potential, especially since his performance down the stretch after being sent to Worcester. Soderberg is considered a second-round "steal" by virtually every impartial observer I've seen, and was ranked as a first-round selection by several teams. Shkotov, after holding his own for two years against veterans in the Russian elite league, came to North America this season and dominated among his peers and age group in the "Q."

The Blues have gotten zero respect for their prospects and their prospect development system for a decade -- with good reason, in some cases. But they've just had quite probably their two best drafts ever, and a number of their better young players -- NHL'ers like Backman and Jackman, as well as Sejna, Jay McClement, Trevor Byrne, John Pohl and Curtis Sanford -- aren't even products of those drafts.

 

[DownFromNJ]

... that's over a year old?

Only source I have.

And, since you've admitted in this thread that you don't know much about the Blues' prospects, how do you justify your stance that the Blues' prospect rankings are "way off?"

How can I justify it? Its not like I changed around the Blues system to fit my needs. I was doing a statistical study and I did not want my study flawed by data which is inconsistant with the norm.

I do not believe that the Blues system is that strong, and until information presents itself otherwise, I will not include St. Louis in the analysis.

Have a problem with it? Rerank the players.

 

[Guy Flaming]

The Blues have gotten zero respect for their prospects and their prospect development system for a decade -- with good reason, in some cases. But they've just had quite probably their two best drafts ever, and a number of their better young players -- NHL'ers like Backman and Jackman, as well as Sejna, Jay McClement, Trevor Byrne, John Pohl and Curtis Sanford -- aren't even products of those drafts.

Brian, check your PM inbox.

 

[Prucha73]

Hell... if Montoya is an 8.5 then so is Schwarz...

Why?

 

[210]

St. Louis was entirely left out because their rankings are way out of whack.

You're correct. IMO there are a few players ranked too low.

 

[NYRangers]

You're correct. IMO there are a few players ranked too low.

Do you realize he said that because if he'd done this system on STL theyd probably end up in first right in front of Atlanta, which is ridiculous. These rankings should at least be somewhat close to the organizational rankings to keep a balance throught the site.

 

[210]

Do you realize he said that because if he'd done this system on STL theyd probably end up in first right in front of Atlanta, which is ridiculous. These rankings should at least be somewhat close to the organizational rankings to keep a balance throught the site.

I know exactly why he said it. My post is just as assinine as his. He typed his because he believes it. I typed mine to show how his is totally out of whack.

And why would it be "ridiculous" for the Blues to be ranked that high?

 

[NYRangers]

And why would it be "ridiculous" for the Blues to be ranked that high?

First? You actually think they have the best prospects in the NHL? Give me a break.

 

[210]

First? You actually think they have the best prospects in the NHL? Give me a break.

Like Stich, I think there are a few that are slightly over rated (and there a few of those on every teams page). But the vast majority are correctly done.

Why not show your knowledge of the Blues prospects and show how each should be rated. I look forward to your rankings.

 

[Bacchus]

And why would Montoya's numerical rating be higher when most believe Schwarz's potential is higher?

That's funny! Right before the Draft Monotya was hyped to death (unlike Schwarz) and all of a sudden he is now with the Rangers and "overrated". Very funny.

Haha.

 

[degroat*]

Why?

Perhaps because he has more potential?

 

[Prucha73]

Perhaps because he has more potential?

According to whom? Maybe he will be better in the future, but right now Montoya is considered better, but it can all change as early as in next 3 or 4 months depending on how they play.

 

[kimzey59]

According to whom? Maybe he will be better in the future, but right now Montoya is considered better, but it can all change as early as in next 3 or 4 months depending on how they play.

According to THN, TSN, McKeen's and Redline. All four of those sources had Schwarz as the Top ranked goalie going into the draft(ahead of Montoya and Dubnyk who were selected before him). Before the Draft there was talk of Schwarz being a top 5 pick with Montoya possibly falling to the Blues in the 17th spot. It is a JOKE that people come out now and try to call Montoya the best goalie in the draft. Before the draft, Schwarz was considered the UNANIMOUS top ranked goalie with Montoya being a step or 2 below him. NOBODY thought that Montoya was the top ranked goalie in this draft until he was picked by the Rag's and the fans started hyping him up.

As has been said previously: If Montoya legitimently warranted a rating of 8.5 then Schwarz should have been an 8.5 as well.

 

[Prussian_Blue]

Only source I have.

You don't have access to Bacashihua's stats from this season? You don't have access to Bacashihua's bio at the Toronto Star/Hockey Forecaster site? You can't write a note to the Dallas Stars scouting department and ask if they can give you a little insight about the guy?

Once again, I'll ask if you think that the word of the Stars' GM (a multiple Stanley Cup winner) and the Stars' goalie scout (a former NHL goaltender) should be overruled by that of someone writing a profile, and a profile that hasn't been updated in over a year at that?

How can I justify it? Its not like I changed around the Blues system to fit my needs.

No, so instead you just ignored the Blues entirely, in order to make your analysis say what you think it should have said. That's hardly scientific, or fair.

I was doing a statistical study and I did not want my study flawed by data which is inconsistant with the norm.

So are you saying that all data has to fit the norm in order to be valid? And that any data that isn't "consistant" with your idea of "the norm" should be discounted? And that no other team's rankings displayed any kind of anomolous thinking?

I do not believe that the Blues system is that strong, and until information presents itself otherwise, I will not include St. Louis in the analysis.

Personally, I could give two hoots in the hot place whether you include the Blues in your "analysis" or not. But considering that you have admitted yourself that you don't know that much about the Blues' system, you really have no business making judgements about the relative strength or weakness of their system.

I don't go around making judgements about Jersey's system, for example... because I don't know that much about it. Therefore, if I were to do an unsolicited "analysis" of the 30 NHL team prospect rankings, and post my findings here, I'd include the rankings given by their writer(s), because I'd have the common courtesy to admit that the people who write about Jersey's prospects probably have a much better understanding of their value and potential to the New Jersey Devils specifically than I do.

And I sure as heck wouldn't insult and embarrass the Devils, or the people who write about them for HF, by making public statements about the rankings they gave to prospects that they know about, and that I don't know about...

I wonder, what "information" that "presents itself otherwise" will satisfy you? When I finish my profile rewrites, they'll justify the rankings I gave the players. Obviously, you don't believe those rankings are correct, so the profiles won't satisfy you as a source of information.

I'm all ears as to what kind of "information presenting itself otherwise" that you'd like to see in order to decide that an organization -- about which you admittedly know little -- "deserves" to be ranked higher.

Have a problem with it? Rerank the players.

...and that statement doesn't strike you as just the least bit arrogant?

Sure, I'll re-rank the players and give them lower grades than what I -- and other people who actually know about the Blues-- think they should have, just because you don't think they're ranked properly.

That'll happen.

Just curious... what in the world gives you the right to

A). decide which rankings are "correct," and which are not, and,

B). insult me and the St. Louis Blues because the rankings of their prospects don't conform to what you think they should be?

The rankings are what they are. I stand by them, and if you have a problem with them, then in the end, it's your problem.

 

[NYRangers]

It is a JOKE that people come out now and try to call Montoya the best goalie in the draft. Before the draft, Schwarz was considered the UNANIMOUS top ranked goalie with Montoya being a step or 2 below him. NOBODY thought that Montoya was the top ranked goalie in this draft until he was picked by the Rag's and the fans started hyping him up.

Your crazy. Unanimous? OK buddy, I looked at two free rankings since I dont subscribe and both had Montoya on top.

TSN: Montoya 4th overall - Schwarz 6th
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/draft/feature.asp?fid=9467

ISS: Montoya 7th overall - Schwarz 12th

I guess these dont count. Im not saying whos better, just saying that your making yourself look like a fool.

 

[TomahawkSniper]

Your crazy. Unanimous? OK buddy, I looked at two free rankings since I dont subscribe and both had Montoya on top.

TSN: Montoya 4th overall - Schwarz 6th
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/draft/feature.asp?fid=9467

ISS: Montoya 7th overall - Schwarz 12th

I guess these dont count. Im not saying whos better, just saying that your making yourself look like a fool.

They are prospects. We will have to wait and see who's better. There still is a lot of developing to do. Right now for all we know, Cory Schneider could very well be the best goalie coming out of the 2004 draft.

 

[NYRangers]

They are prospects. We will have to wait and see who's better. There still is a lot of developing to do. Right now for all we know, Cory Schneider could very well be the best goalie coming out of the 2004 draft.

Like I said, Im not saying either one is better, just defending a ridiculous claim.

 

[DownFromNJ]

...and that statement doesn't strike you as just the least bit arrogant?

The rankings are what they are. I stand by them, and if you have a problem with them, then in the end, it's your problem.

I couldn't care less if St. Louis was on there. It doesn't throw off my rankings to omit one outlier. Your the one complaining about it. Your problem.

 

[degroat*]

Not exactly. It has developed into your problem. Had you included the Blues and put them were they fell the thread would have turned into a Blues bashing thread instead of a thread bashing you.

BTW... I'm still waiting for a response to a few of my earlier points. I changed all the rankings that you complained about and a few of them that I thought were a tad high and the Blues still ended up being one of the top teams. Care to explain this?

 

[degroat*]

Like I said, Im not saying either one is better, just defending a ridiculous claim.

The only part of his post that was ridiculous was when he claimed that TSN had Schwarz ranked higher. THe rest of it his his opinion and there's nothing ridiculous about it. MOST of the rankings suggest that Schwarz has more potential than Montoya. A few of them suggests that Montoya has more potential. It's not ridiculous to claim that either has more potential.

That said... let's get back to what started this... After I said that if Montoya gets an 8.5 then so does Schwarz someone, I'd presume a Rags fan, questioned me on that essentially suggesting that Schwarz shouldn't have as high of a rating.

Perhaps he, or even you, could attempt to tell us why Schwarz shouldn't be rated as high as Montoya?

 

[DownFromNJ]

Not exactly. It has developed into your problem. Had you included the Blues and put them were they fell the thread would have turned into a Blues bashing thread instead of a thread bashing you.

I couldn't care less

Your problem.

Ok, well when all are up to date I'll redo the ranking.

 

[Senor Rational]

No team had more than one 8+ forward, but St. Louis has three. No team has a goaltending duo with a 7.75 ratings (even Atlanta and Pittsburgh with their 9s). The defensive linesups look ok, but I know little about St. Louis's system so they could be overrated as well.

The others I changed because I had the letter system to work with. St. Louis is rated just plain high.

St. Louis I believed went with the old rating system where 8=1st line potential. Shtov Sejna and Zhakarov all have first line potential.

About goaltending prospects, the blues have Shwartz and Cash, both first round picks. Shwartz was rated 8 and Cash has alot of potential. Whether he reaches that potential or not is the question.

You just completely disrespected the Blues and their fans by completly disreguarding their farm system. You have little knowledge about their prospects or their development. You disreguarded the fact that we used the old ranking system.

 

[degroat*]

Senor, I wouldn't waste your time any longer. There's a reason why every Blues fans on this board feels like the team doesn't get fairly evaluated and this thread just supports everything that us Blues fans already knew.

I only wish I better understood why people here feel the need to disrespect Blues prospects. It's uncanny.

 

[Senor Rational]

Im a little angry, that was complete disrespect to the blues and their fans and disrespect towards Brian Wielder who worked very hard to get that up.

 

[degroat*]

I'm still waiting for a response to a few of my earlier points. I changed all the rankings that you complained about and a few of them that I thought were a tad high and the Blues still ended up being one of the top teams. Care to explain this?

Still waiting...