Coleman Conference Final: Chicago Shamrocks vs West Lafayette Lion Tamers

[BenchBrawl]

It's been awhile since the centers project, but my read on Barry is that he was big, strong, and a hard worker, but lacked a mean streak.



The information presented about Denneny's non-scoring, non-fighting game in the HOH wingers project was quite unflattering. That aside, I actually think the combo of Denneny and Alfredsson can together accomplish what you want from your glue guys. Alfy is the hard worker in all areas of the ice; his only real detriment is that he is undersized. Denneny is anything but a hard worker, but I think he is the type of guy who will gladly come to Alfy's aid if he's being pushed around.

Thank you

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I am definitely open to considering that Marty Barry was underrated in the HOH Top Centers project, but I have no idea why we would bring Stastny into the argument. It would be one thing if Stastny and Datsyuk played in the same era and it was clear Stastny was the better player, but that's just not the case, you're just bringing in a random 3rd player from an era that neither of these two played in. If Barry was underrated in the project then what's to say that Stastny wasn't overrated? Also, in Stastny's case, he had at least one prime/peak year pre-NHL, and played in a very defensive division, 2 factors that likely affect his vs.X score.

This is all secondary though, Stastny really has no part in the discussion, a much better approach would be to just compare Barry and Datsyuk directly...

7yr vs.X
Barry: 89.6
Datsyuk: 82.5

This is a difference of about 7 percentage points...to put that in perspective, in this year's NHL that is worth about 6.32 points over an entire season. IMO Datsyuk's elite defensive play every game is more valuable than 6 points of extra offense over 82 games. Datsyuk also has a stronger Hart and AS record than Barry. Therefore, as far as regular season goes, I would give Datsyuk an edge.

Barry was a great playoff performer, and better than Datsyuk, but Datsyuk is a very good big game performer in his own right (although not on the level of Barry). See this from Datsyuk's bio:

Prime Playoffs (’04-’15): 127 GP – 39 G – 68 A – 107 Pts +34
Olympics (’02,’06,’10,’14): 23 GP – 5 G – 15 A – 20 Pts +17

Remember that in addition to the above offensive numbers Datsyuk is also playing elite level defense in the playoffs.

So Datsyuk has the edge in the regular season, Barry has the edge in the playoffs. I cannot agree that your claim that Barry is "most certainly better than Datsyuk" is accurate, as a fair argument can be made that Datsyuk is the better player.

If someone wants to say the two are close, I am fine with that; however,with regards to the series, please remember that we are comparing Chicago's 2nd line center with West Lafayette's 1st line center.

I brought Stastny into the discussion because I thought he was the best player to show how underrated Barry was. The impact of playing in a more defensively oriented division could very well make up for that extra 1.2 point gap that Barry has on him. As for his seasons in Europe, I seriously doubt they were part of his seven best seasons. In his best European season, Stastny finished 4th in scoring. And that's not even taking into account Barry's superior defensive game and playoff resume.

You bring a very good case for Datsyuk > Barry, and I find it hard to argue against it. By trying to make the case for Barry being underrated, I might have made a better case for Stastny being overrated instead, which is kind of useless since Stastny is not a participant in this series.

 

[jarek]

I brought Stastny into the discussion because I thought he was the best player to show how underrated Barry was. The impact of playing in a more defensively oriented division could very well make up for that extra 1.2 point gap that Barry has on him. As for his seasons in Europe, I seriously doubt they were part of his seven best seasons. In his best European season, Stastny finished 4th in scoring. And that's not even taking into account Barry's superior defensive game and playoff resume.

You bring a very good case for Datsyuk > Barry, and I find it hard to argue against it. By trying to make the case for Barry being underrated, I might have made a better case for Stastny being overrated instead, which is kind of useless since Stastny is not a participant in this series.

Stastny was rated as highly as he was because the voters of the project at the time thought he had a game away from the puck. This has since been completely debunked as far as I am aware. Stastny is nothing but a scorer.

 

[Namba 17]

Quite honestly, I just don't see that as very relevant. Do you know how many players scored a point per game EVERY SINGLE YEAR during that time period? Especially relative to other eras?

That type of list also completely leaves out some very talented eras of players.

If such a list were compiled using adjusted point totals, I think it would be a lot more relevant. At least that way it evens out the playing field for all eras.. and I still don't think it would be very useful in evaluating GOAT comparisons.

Once again - Stastny outscored many great players, who played in the same period of time or in the period of time, with similar scoring data.
In fact, I think, it's Stastny, who underrated in ATD

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Once again - Stastny outscored many great players, who wssseeeeeeeeweezzxeseeeeeeeeeeesplayed in the same period of time or in the period of time, with similar scoring data.
In fact, I think, it's Stastny, who underrated in ATD

How can you look at that list and not see that it's dominated by players from the two really high scoring eras in NHL history? (1910s and mid 1970s - mid 1990s).

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Honored to make it to the Final, but it's a shame neither Mark or Stoneberg were able to show up and make some arguments as they built a very strong team.

 

[Namba 17]

How can you look at that list and not see that it's dominated by players from the two really high scoring eras in NHL history? (1910s and mid 1970s - mid 1990s).

I really don't know what is so unclear. ERA DOESN'T MATTER! Players from mid 70s till mid 1990: Denis Savard, Trottier, Messier, Dale Hawerchuk, Dionne, Francis, Yzerman, Bossy, Kurri etc. Stastny reached scoring milestones, faster, than them! Or, probably, you think that Gretzky wasn't that great, because, you know, he played in high scoring era?

 

[Dreakmur]

I really don't know what is so unclear. ERA DOESN'T MATTER! Players from mid 70s till mid 1990: Denis Savard, Trottier, Messier, Dale Hawerchuk, Dionne, Francis, Yzerman, Bossy, Kurri etc. Stastny reached scoring milestones, faster, than them! Or, probably, you think that Gretzky wasn't that great, because, you know, he played in high scoring era?

Era definitely does matter...

 

[Johnny Engine]

I think Namba's being misunderstood here - era doesn't come into play if we're comparing Stastny to Bossy, Stastny to Yzerman, etc, since only a few years separate them. It's not like comparing either of them to Syl Apps.

One factor that I think Namba may or may not be overlooking (depending on HOW high he wants to push Stastny), is the sheer volume of players available here. I've been in drafts where the infamously similar Yzerman and Sakic have been drafted 15, 20 spots apart, simply because there are that many players within their tier, and one guy or the other happened to fall to one end of that stratum.