Coleman Conference Final: Chicago Shamrocks vs West Lafayette Lion Tamers

[Theokritos]

Chicago Shamrocks

Head Coach: Joel Quenneville
Captain: Syl Apps
Alternate Captains: Daniel Alfredsson, Lionel Hitchman


Cy Denneny - Syl Apps (C) - Daniel Alfredsson (A)
Gord Roberts - Pavel Datsyuk - Sergei Makarov
Eric Nesterenko - Anze Kopitar - Jimmy Ward
Don Marcotte - Vincent Damphousse - John MacLean

Spares: Murray Oliver, Brent Sutter

Lionel Conacher - Chris Chelios
Lionel Hitchman (A) - Harry Cameron
Gary Bergman - Bob Armstrong

Spares: Calle Johansson, Ron Stackhouse

Tony Esposito
Hap Holmes


Special Teams
PP1: Denneny - Apps - Makarov - Bergman - Cameron

PP2: Roberts - Datsyuk - Alfredsson - Conacher - Chelios


PK1: Marcotte - Nesterenko - Hitchman - Chelios

PK2: Kopitar - MacLean/Makarov/Damphousse - Conacher - Armstrong

Extra PK F: Makarov, Damphousse, Datsyuk
Extra PK D: Bergman
​

Estimated Minutes

Forwards

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
C. Denneny | 14 | 5 | | 19
S. Apps | 14 | 5 | | 19
D. Alfresson | 14 | 2 | | 16
G. Roberts | 13 | 2 | | 15
P. Datsyuk | 14 | 2 | | 16
S. Makarov | 14 | 5 | | 19
V. Damphousse | 13 | | | 13
A. Kopitar | 12 | | 3 | 15
J. Ward | 12 | | | 12
D. Marcotte | 6 | | 4 | 10
B. Sutter | 6 | | 3 | 9
E. Nesterenko | 6 | | 4 | 10
TOTAL | 138 | 21 | 14 | 173

*Makarov and Datsyuk will take a shift or two on the 3rd line (but not at the same time)

Defense

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
C. Chelios | 19 | 3 | 4 | 26
L. Conacher | 17 | 2 | 3 | 22
H. Cameron | 16 | 5 | | 21
L. Hitchman | 15 | | 4 | 19
Bergman | 14 | 4 | | 18
Armstrong | 11 | | 3 | 14
TOTAL | 92 | 14 | 14 | 120

*Chelios will take several shifts for Armstrong at ES
**Bergman will take an occasional shift for Hitchman at the end of games/periods in offensive zone situations.



Chicago Shamrocks Real World Team History
In 1930, James Norris pursued the NHL for rights to a second NHL team in Chicago, but was spurned by the league who supported the NHL Chicago Black Hawks concerns regarding competition for fan base. He turned to the American Hockey Association who gave him rights to an expansion team in Chicago. The league had renamed itself the American Hockey League and declared itself a major league, to the anger of NHL president Frank Calder, who branded the league an outlaw league.

In 1931-32 season, their second, the Shamrocks won the league championship. Convinced they should be given a chance to play for the Stanley Cup, they petitioned the Cup trustees for that opportunity. However the trustees would have to convince the NHL to accept that challenge and the NHL would not. Perhaps frustrated by this, Norris once again looked to join the NHL.

In May 1932, the Detroit Falcons of the NHL declared bankruptcy, and Norris used that opportunity to convince the NHL he could take over the team. The NHL agreed on the condition that he disband the Shamrocks who were a thorn in the side of the Chicago Blackhawks. So he disbanded the Shamrocks and took three of the best players with him to Detroit, renaming the team the Red Wings. The American Hockey League reverted to the American Hockey Association after this and once again demoted itself to minor league status.

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

West Lafayette Lion Tamers

Head Coach: Lester Patrick

Jacques Plante
Evgeni Nabokov

Paul Kariya - Marty Barry - Gordie Howe (A)
Syd Howe - Denis Savard - Dave Taylor
Bob Pulford - Cooney Weiland- Shane Doan (A)
Ed Sandford - Ken Mosdell - Tim Kerr


Scott Stevens (C) - Guy Lapointe
Lester Patrick - Jack Crawford
Glen Harmon - Brent Seabrook

Spares:
F Rejean Houle
D Lars-Erik Sjöberg
C/LW Jack Adams
D Zinetula Bilyaletdinov​

PP1:
Tim Kerr
Denis Savard - Gordie Howe
Guy Lapointe - Paul Kariya

PP2:
Syd Howe - Marty Barry - Cooney Weiland
Lester Patrick - Brent Seabrook

PK1:
Ken Mosdell - Bob Pulford
Scott Stevens - Jack Crawford

PK2:
Syd Howe - Cooney Weiland
Guy Lapointe - Brent Seabrook



Forward Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Gordie Howe | 16 | 5 | 2 | 23
Syd Howe | 13 | 3 | 3 | 19
Paul Kariya | 14 | 5 | 0 |19
Marty Barry | 14 | 3 | 0 |17
Denis Savard | 12 | 4 | 0 | 16
Bob Pulford | 12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Cooney Weiland | 11 | 2 | 2 | 15
Dave Taylor | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Shane Doan | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Ken Mosdell | 8 | 0 | 3 | 11
Tim Kerr | 6 | 4 | 0 | 10
Ed Sandford | 7 | 0 | 0 | 7
TOTAL | 138 | 26* | 14 | 177*

Defensemen Minutes

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Scott Stevens | 20 | 0 | 4 | 24
Guy Lapointe | 17 | 4 | 2 | 23
Lester Patrick | 17 | 3 | 0 | 20
Jack Crawford | 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Glen Harmon | 11 | 0 | 1 | 13
Brent Seabrook | 11 | 2 | 3 | 16
TOTAL | 92 | 9* | 14 | 115*

*Kariya 5 minutes PP point

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

As I posted in the divisional series thread, I've been sick the last few days and just getting caught up. Congrats to West Lafayette on winning their division.

I will post more when I'm feeling better and have the energy, just a couple brief things for now...

Chicago continues to run the Goalie Gauntlet: Round 1 - Hasek, Round 2 - Sawchuk, Round 3 - Plante


Lineup Change
Limiting Gordie Howe is the key to defeating West Lafayette. Chicago will be moving Eric Nesterenko to the 3rd line LW position in order to have very good checkers for Howe on both the 3rd and 4th lines. In turn, Vinny Damphousse will center the 4th line and John Maclean will be inserted as the 4th line RW, with Brent Sutter being scratched. Kopitar will be a regular on the 2nd PK unit, but the 2nd forward position on that unit could be any of MacLean, Makarov, and Damphousse, depending on what the situation calls for.

Please note that this is something Nesterenko did in real life with effectiveness:

"All we did was check and let them come back in wave after wave. Nester checked Howe good enough but we didn't have enough guys to back him up."

Headline: Howe's Shadow Nesterenko Termed Key to Chicago Win

The Chicago Black Hawks try for their second successive National Hockey League semifinal playoff triumph over the Detroit Red Wings tonight, hoping two surprise factors again will prevail.

...The other is that Eric Nesterenko can continue his effective checking of Detroit NHL's scoring champion Gordie Howe.

The last-minute shift of Eric Nesterenko from his normal right wing spot to left wing assigned him to Howe, who got away only two shots under Nesterenko's fine checking Tuesday night.

If Howe can't break away from the Hawks right-winger, Pious think the Hawks might advance to the final against the Toronto-Montreal winner in the minimum four games.

"If Nesterenko can keep Howe in check for the rest of the series, we could get the job done early." Pious says.

...Abel (Detroit coach) conceded Nesterenko did a "really good job" on Howe but pointed out, "Our Howe, Parker Mcdonald, and Alex Delveccio line didn't skate as well as usual, so Nesterenko and the other Hawks found it a little easier to check them.

See his bio for more quotes about Nesterenko's shadowing ability

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Defense

Let’s take a look at the defenses for each team…

Player by Player Comparisons

Chelios > Stevens - I'd call Stevens an average to slightly below average #1 while Chelios is slightly above average

Conacher < Lapointe – IMO Lapointe is very difficult to rate, but I give him the edge here as a slightly above average #2 whereas Conacher is an average to slightly below average #2

Cameron > Patrick - Both offensive guys, Cameron was underrated by the HOH Top Dmen project as has been shown by some good research by TDMM, added on by jarek last year, I have him as a high end #3 while Patrick is more of an average #3.

Hitchman <= Crawford – These are both defensive Dmen, who I would call low-end #3's/high end #4's, but I would put Crawford slightly above Hitchman

Bergman = Harmon – I would call both of these guys average to below average #5’s

Armstrong vs. Seabrook – Difficult to compare these two…Armstrong has a better Norris record, Seabrook has a Championship pedigree and was always clearly behind Keith. I would call Armstrong better defensively and Seabrook better offensively. I don’t see a huge discrepancy here that is going to make any kind of a difference when comparing these two teams, especially since these guys are last on the depth chart.


Overall the defenses are close, but I give small edges to Chicago on both the 1st and 2nd pairings. When looking at the 1st pairing individual comparisons I think the relative differences are about the same, but Chicago holds the advantage at the #1 position, which is obviously more important. When looking at the 2nd pairing the same concept holds true, but I also think the difference between Cameron and Patrick is a little larger than between Hitchman and Crawford. I think the 3rd pairings are close enough to call about a wash. This gives Chicago an overall advantage on the blueline.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Weakness At Center

While West Lafayette is a strong team, their top 6 is very weak at arguably the most important position on the ice. Marty Barry is a below average 2nd line center playing on the 1st line and Denis Savard is a weak 2nd line center in a draft this size. In fact, IMO Chicago’s 2nd line center, Datsyuk, is better than West Lafayette’s 1st line center Marty Barry. To be fair, West Lafayette does have good center depth with Weiland and Mosdell, but Chicago is not far behind with Kopitar and Damphousse. The difference is much larger among the top 2 centers, who will play more minutes and more important roles.

Can anyone think of a recent Stanley Cup Champion that was this weak at the center position? (I say recent because I think the parity of today best represents the parity of the ATD). I know West Lafayette has Gordie Howe, which definitely helps some, but Howe will be drawing a ton of attention, and such a large weakness at center will limit West Lafayette’s ability to take advantage.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Dealing with Gordie Howe

As previously mentioned, limiting/neutralizing Gordie Howe is the key to beating West Lafayette, and Chicago is well equipped to do so.

Starting on the back end, Chicago's top 2 pairings have big strong defenders on the left side in Lionel Conacher and Lionel Hitchman, who won't be intimidated by Howe. Chicago will want their top pairing to be out against the Howe line as much as possible, as it gives Chicago another excellent defender in Chris Chelios to assist Conacher in defending Howe.

As far as forward help is concerned, Chicago's lineup change, which has already been discussed, gives Chicago two great checking forwards in Eric Nesterenko and Don Marcotte. Both have a physical game and will not be intimidated by Howe. Chicago would also be comfortable icing it's 2nd line against the Howe line...with an elite defensive center in Datsyuk who is one of the best of all time at breaking up transition plays in the neutral zone combined with one of the best counter-attack threats in the draft in Makarov, Howe and Barry will have to be more cautious, particularly with no defensive help from Kariya on Makarov’s wing. If Howe still provides too much for this line then the 3 LW’s Nesterenko/Marcotte/Roberts can be rotated accordingly to ensure that one of Nesterenko or Marcotte is always out against Howe. Those 3 LW’s can be interchanged quite easily without greatly affecting the chemistry of their lines.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Big Line vs. 1-2 Punch

West Lafayette is set up as a team that relies heavily on its top line (which is understandable considering they have Gordie Howe), but Chicago’s set up gives them 2 dangerous lines, with extremely dynamic players on each (Apps and Makarov), with great compliments to each...Denneny is a lethal trigger man, who will make defenses pay that concentrate too much on Apps and his amazing speed and puck skills, and Datsyuk is the perfect guy to generate takeaways and get the puck quickly to Makarov on the counter-attack.

While Syd Howe is a strong LW on West Lafayette's 2nd line and a player that can easily play on a 1st line, the other 2 pieces (Savard and Taylor) are weak 2nd liners at their positions, making the line sub-par overall.

I have stated how Chicago will deal with West Lafayette’s big line, which I believe will be fairly effective...I think West Lafayette will have a difficult time trying to handle the 1-2 punch of Chicago. West Lafayette’s 2nd line is going to find itself out on the ice against one of Chicago’s top 2 lines and they will be greatly outmatched (at all 3 positions against Chicago's 1st line, and at 2 of 3 positions against Chicago's 2nd line).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

While West Lafayette is a strong team, their top 6 is very weak at arguably the most important position on the ice. Marty Barry is a below average 2nd line center playing on the 1st line and Denis Savard is a weak 2nd line center in a draft this size. In fact, IMO Chicago’s 2nd line center, Datsyuk, is better than West Lafayette’s 1st line center Marty Barry. To be fair, West Lafayette does have good center depth with Weiland and Mosdell, but Chicago is not far behind with Kopitar and Damphousse. The difference is much larger among the top 2 centers, who will play more minutes and more important roles.

Can anyone think of a recent Stanley Cup Champion that was this weak at the center position? (I say recent because I think the parity of today best represents the parity of the ATD). I know West Lafayette has Gordie Howe, which definitely helps some, but Howe will be drawing a ton of attention, and such a large weakness at center will limit West Lafayette’s ability to take advantage.

Center was NJ's weakest position for their three Cups. Does that count as recent?

Anaheim in 2007 had Andy MacDonald and rookie Getzlaf. Last Cup winner without a true #1 and an average #2.

Boston in 2011 - No true #1, though Krejci was clutch. Bergeron was a truly elite #2 though.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Center was NJ's weakest position for their three Cups. Does that count as recent?

Anaheim in 2007 had Andy MacDonald and rookie Getzlaf. Last Cup winner without a true #1 and an average #2.

Boston in 2011 - No true #1, though Krejci was clutch. Bergeron was a truly elite #2 though.

New Jersey is a little earlier than I was thinking, we weren't seeing all the parity back when they were winning Cups, however they are an example of a team that definitely had a well below average #1 center, but were their #2 centers weak like Savard is in this draft? (I'm assuming those would be Gomez-2000, Niewendyk-2003)

Anaheim is an interesting case, and the closest thing we're going to find to "yes" here...Getzlaf wasn't a true rookie, he played 57 games in 2006, won the Cup in 2007, but the next year he put up 82 points which was good enough for 15th in the NHL. How much difference was there between Getzlaf in the 2007 playoffs and Getzlaf in the 2007-08 season? Could be a situation where people just hadn't realized how good he was yet as he was on the quick upswing. This isn't a situation we have in the ATD, players are what they are. I'm not dismissing this as a possible "yes" though.

Boston I don't think qualifies for the reasons you said

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I actually think Barry was really underrated in the Top C project. I fail to see what makes him worse than someone like Stastny who was ranked 10 spots ahead of him.

Barry's 7 year VsX ranks him 39th while Stastny is 44th. Stastny wasn't anything special defensively while Barry was probably at worst average in comparison to his peers, so Stastny doesn't make up any ground here. In addition, Barry is arguably the best playoff performer of the 1930s. Stastny wasn't bad in the playoffs, but I think everyone will agree with me that he lags behind Barry quite a bit in this department.

Since Barry is arguably superior to Stastny, how could Datsyuk be superior to Barry, since Stastny > Datsyuk, and Barry > Stastny? Unless, you personally believe that Datsyuk is better than Stastny, then I don't see how Datsyuk > Barry. Barry is much superior offensively than Datsyuk both in the regular season and the playoffs (39th vs 81st in 7 year RS VSX). The only question left is: does Datsyuk's defensive advantage make up for this massive gap?

Honestly, I think Barry should be in the mid-30s on that list rather than the mid-40s. This would still make Barry a 2nd line C, but he'd be elevated from being a below average one to an average or above average 2nd line C, and most certainly better than Datsyuk, unless you believe that Datsyuk too was underrated in the top-C project.

 

[Namba 17]

I fail to see what makes him worse than someone like Stastny

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=119448045&postcount=1

 

[BenchBrawl]

Center was NJ's weakest position for their three Cups. Does that count as recent?

Anaheim in 2007 had Andy MacDonald and rookie Getzlaf. Last Cup winner without a true #1 and an average #2.

Boston in 2011 - No true #1, though Krejci was clutch. Bergeron was a truly elite #2 though.

I would say that the parity was weak throughout New Jersey's "dynasty", so they're disqualified if we go strictly by HT18's comparison between the parity of recent hockey and the parity of ATD2017.

About Anaheim, to be fair Getzlaf was their best point scorer in that run, and MacDonald was their best goalscorer.In that sense, they're a bad example if we want to say that you can win in a league with great parity without solid contribution from your centers, but they're a good example if we want to say a weak center line can overacheive.

I think Boston had a better relative center line than West Lafayette, especially considering Krejci rather bizarre overachieving playoff resume and Bergeron's intangibles and defensive play, which is not found on WL.But as a whole, they're probably the best example.OTOH, Boston had a great #1 defenseman, which WL doesn't possess (no disrespect to Stevens).The same was true of both NJ and Anaheim, ironically with Stevens (who was a great defenseman in that other context) and Pronger/Niedermayer.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Random comments:

- Massive advantages to West Lafayette in coaching and goaltending. (Edit: HT18 pointed out that the coaching advantage isn't massive.I agree, so I take that back.)

- West Lafayette has a mediocre center line.Just a random question for my personal curiosity, how physical was Marty Barry?

- Agreed with HT18 that Chicago has a better defense, including a better #1.From a top-down perspective of WL's defense, I must say the Stevens-Crawford diagonal is very beautiful though.Aesthetically pleasing.I think Chicago has a decent personel to contain Gordie Howe.Maybe not the best or a spectacular personel, but still pretty good.

- Still unsure about whether Denneny was a physical player and a fighter or just a fighter.I think the difference is crucial for the physicality of Chicago's Top 6.

- Chicago's Top 6 is more balanced offensively and better overall with their two very strong duos.

- Overall both teams are very strong IMO.It's too bad that neither mark nor Stoneberg has made an appearence yet.They deserve the benefit of the doubt because they're usually there but it's too bad that two GMs from the same team can't make it.Hopefully they do soon and bring their points.I think HT18's arguments were all (competitively) fair.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I actually think Barry was really underrated in the Top C project. I fail to see what makes him worse than someone like Stastny who was ranked 10 spots ahead of him.

Barry's 7 year VsX ranks him 39th while Stastny is 44th. Stastny wasn't anything special defensively while Barry was probably at worst average in comparison to his peers, so Stastny doesn't make up any ground here. In addition, Barry is arguably the best playoff performer of the 1930s. Stastny wasn't bad in the playoffs, but I think everyone will agree with me that he lags behind Barry quite a bit in this department.

Since Barry is arguably superior to Stastny, how could Datsyuk be superior to Barry, since Stastny > Datsyuk, and Barry > Stastny? Unless, you personally believe that Datsyuk is better than Stastny, then I don't see how Datsyuk > Barry. Barry is much superior offensively than Datsyuk both in the regular season and the playoffs (39th vs 81st in 7 year RS VSX). The only question left is: does Datsyuk's defensive advantage make up for this massive gap?

Honestly, I think Barry should be in the mid-30s on that list rather than the mid-40s. This would still make Barry a 2nd line C, but he'd be elevated from being a below average one to an average or above average 2nd line C, and most certainly better than Datsyuk, unless you believe that Datsyuk too was underrated in the top-C project.

I basically agree with everything you say about Marty Barry.

At this point, I'm pretty sure the only reason he hasn't appeared as an option on the HOH top playoff performers list is because didn't play for the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=119448045&postcount=1

So basically a list of stars who played in high scoring eras?

 

[jarek]

So basically a list of stars who played in high scoring eras?

I guess he was referencing that Stastny was able to hit most of those milestones while scoring at least a PPG during the season in which he did so?

That seems.. pointless.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I actually think Barry was really underrated in the Top C project. I fail to see what makes him worse than someone like Stastny who was ranked 10 spots ahead of him.

Barry's 7 year VsX ranks him 39th while Stastny is 44th. Stastny wasn't anything special defensively while Barry was probably at worst average in comparison to his peers, so Stastny doesn't make up any ground here. In addition, Barry is arguably the best playoff performer of the 1930s. Stastny wasn't bad in the playoffs, but I think everyone will agree with me that he lags behind Barry quite a bit in this department.

Since Barry is arguably superior to Stastny, how could Datsyuk be superior to Barry, since Stastny > Datsyuk, and Barry > Stastny? Unless, you personally believe that Datsyuk is better than Stastny, then I don't see how Datsyuk > Barry. Barry is much superior offensively than Datsyuk both in the regular season and the playoffs (39th vs 81st in 7 year RS VSX). The only question left is: does Datsyuk's defensive advantage make up for this massive gap?

Honestly, I think Barry should be in the mid-30s on that list rather than the mid-40s. This would still make Barry a 2nd line C, but he'd be elevated from being a below average one to an average or above average 2nd line C, and most certainly better than Datsyuk, unless you believe that Datsyuk too was underrated in the top-C project.

I am definitely open to considering that Marty Barry was underrated in the HOH Top Centers project, but I have no idea why we would bring Stastny into the argument. It would be one thing if Stastny and Datsyuk played in the same era and it was clear Stastny was the better player, but that's just not the case, you're just bringing in a random 3rd player from an era that neither of these two played in. If Barry was underrated in the project then what's to say that Stastny wasn't overrated? Also, in Stastny's case, he had at least one prime/peak year pre-NHL, and played in a very defensive division, 2 factors that likely affect his vs.X score.

This is all secondary though, Stastny really has no part in the discussion, a much better approach would be to just compare Barry and Datsyuk directly...

7yr vs.X
Barry: 89.6
Datsyuk: 82.5

This is a difference of about 7 percentage points...to put that in perspective, in this year's NHL that is worth about 6.32 points over an entire season. IMO Datsyuk's elite defensive play every game is more valuable than 6 points of extra offense over 82 games. Datsyuk also has a stronger Hart and AS record than Barry. Therefore, as far as regular season goes, I would give Datsyuk an edge.

Barry was a great playoff performer, and better than Datsyuk, but Datsyuk is a very good big game performer in his own right (although not on the level of Barry). See this from Datsyuk's bio:

Prime Playoffs (’04-’15): 127 GP – 39 G – 68 A – 107 Pts +34
Olympics (’02,’06,’10,’14): 23 GP – 5 G – 15 A – 20 Pts +17

Remember that in addition to the above offensive numbers Datsyuk is also playing elite level defense in the playoffs.

So Datsyuk has the edge in the regular season, Barry has the edge in the playoffs. I cannot agree that your claim that Barry is "most certainly better than Datsyuk" is accurate, as a fair argument can be made that Datsyuk is the better player.

If someone wants to say the two are close, I am fine with that; however,with regards to the series, please remember that we are comparing Chicago's 2nd line center with West Lafayette's 1st line center.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Random comments:

- Massive advantages to West Lafayette in coaching and goaltending.

I agree that WL has the advantage in both of the above departments, but I don't think the coaching edge is as big as the goaltending advantage...


Patrick is an elite coach and Plante is an elite goaltender, but I think Quenneville is a better coach than Esposito/Holmes is as a goaltending duo.

I think average is the best you can argue the Espo/Holmes combination is, but Quenneville is surely an above average ATD coach at this point and a strong argument for the top 10. 2nd most wins of all time, 3 Cups, phenomenal playoff record in games 4-7 of a series (with the Hawks), able to achieve success after large roster turnover. Certainly in the argument for best of his generation. Coaching is an advantage for WL, but I would not call it "massive."



Also, with regards to goaltending, just reposting this from the last series:

I don't really think there's a whole lot to say on goaltending, this is a large advantage for WL. One thing to note on Chicago's goaltending is that Tony Esposito's playoff woes tend to be overblown. See the below.

Playoff numbers for team success vs. expected:

Rank|Goalie|Series W|Exp Series|Diff|%|Cups|Exp Cups|Diff|%
1|Turk Broda|15|10.34|+4.66|+45%|5|3.07|+1.93|+63%
2|Charlie Gardiner|5|3.10|+1.90|+61%|1|0.28|+0.72|+257%
3|Ed Belfour|19|17.77|+1.23|+7%|1|1.65|-0.65|-39%
4|Johnny Bower|8|6.97|+1.03|+15%|3|2.37|+0.63|+27%
5|Tony Esposito|9|8.43|+0.57|+7%|0|0.76|-0.76|-100%
6|Bernie Parent|9|8.48|+0.52|+6%|2|0.99|+1.01|+102%
7|Georges Vezina|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%
8|Clint Benedict|5|5.55|-0.55|-10%|3|3.80|-0.80|-21%
9|Frank Brimsek|7|8.37|-1.37|-16%|2|2.84|-0.84|-30%
10|Bill Durnan|5|7.4|-2.40|-32%|2|3.05|-1.05|-34%

(Note: These are NHL numbers only, and for Vezina and Benedict Cups refers to league championships. My system can't really deal with games played against western teams because they didn't play a common schedule with the NHL champs. It should be noted however that during the NHL years Benedict was 4-0 in the series against the western champions with the Sens and Maroons while Vezina's Canadiens were 1-1 with the 1919 series not completed. If those results were incorporated it is likely that Benedict's playoff team record was as good or maybe even be a bit better than Vezina's.)

...

I think Tony Esposito's playoff failures are generally overblown. He also has a very strong regular season record, ranking #1 all-time among goalies in regular season GVT. That is in part because of the lack of parity in the 1970s, but in terms of career regular season value Esposito certainly rivals anybody in this group.

Despite the above, Esposito is still not a strong playoff performer, which is why we have drafted a great money goaltender in Hap Holmes who consistently put up great playoff performances. We also have a coach who fits this situation...First, the teams he has had success with have not had elite goaltending. Second, he has shown a willingness to put faith in his backup when necessary in a playoff situation (i.e. 2015 Playoffs vs. Nashville).


To be clear, the above is just explaining Chicago's goaltending situation, this does not change the comparison, goaltending is still a large advantage to WL.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I agree that WL has the advantage in both of the above departments, but I don't think the coaching edge is as big as the goaltending advantage...


Patrick is an elite coach and Plante is an elite goaltender, but I think Quenneville is a better coach than Esposito/Holmes is as a goaltending duo.

I think average is the best you can argue the Espo/Holmes combination is, but Quenneville is surely an above average ATD coach at this point and a strong argument for the top 10. 2nd most wins of all time, 3 Cups, phenomenal playoff record in games 4-7 of a series (with the Hawks), able to achieve success after large roster turnover. Certainly in the argument for best of his generation. Coaching is an advantage for WL, but I would not call it "massive."



Also, with regards to goaltending, just reposting this from the last series:

I think you're right, I overstated the coaching advantage.By now Quenneville is a coach of a mini-dynasty, it just didn't sink in yet.I take it back.

 

[Namba 17]

So basically a list of stars who played in high scoring eras?

In this list Stastny is higher than MANY other stars, who almost unanimously considered better, than Barry.
The question was "why Stasny is higher, than Barry in ATD list". I think, my link has some relation to answer to this question

 

[jarek]

In this list Stastny is higher than MANY other stars, who almost unanimously considered better, than Barry.
The question was "why Stasny is higher, than Barry in ATD list". I think, my link has some relation to answer to this question

Quite honestly, I just don't see that as very relevant. Do you know how many players scored a point per game EVERY SINGLE YEAR during that time period? Especially relative to other eras?

That type of list also completely leaves out some very talented eras of players.

If such a list were compiled using adjusted point totals, I think it would be a lot more relevant. At least that way it evens out the playing field for all eras.. and I still don't think it would be very useful in evaluating GOAT comparisons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's a shame mark and stoneberg are MIA. I always thought stoneberg built some of the strongest teams in the draft, but was never around to make the case for them in the playoffs because of his work schedule. So I thought adding mark to his team would help him out there.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

- West Lafayette has a mediocre center line.Just a random question for my personal curiosity, how physical was Marty Barry?

It's been awhile since the centers project, but my read on Barry is that he was big, strong, and a hard worker, but lacked a mean streak.

- Still unsure about whether Denneny was a physical player and a fighter or just a fighter.I think the difference is crucial for the physicality of Chicago's Top 6.

The information presented about Denneny's non-scoring, non-fighting game in the HOH wingers project was quite unflattering. That aside, I actually think the combo of Denneny and Alfredsson can together accomplish what you want from your glue guys. Alfy is the hard worker in all areas of the ice; his only real detriment is that he is undersized. Denneny is anything but a hard worker, but I think he is the type of guy who will gladly come to Alfy's aid if he's being pushed around.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Special Teams
PP1: Denneny - Apps - Makarov - Bergman - Cameron

PP2: Roberts - Datsyuk - Alfredsson - Conacher - Chelios

HT, did you move Bergman to your 1st PP because of my quick comment about not liking Conacher on a 1st PP? I don't think it's ideal, but either Conacher or Chelios has to be better than Bergman, right? Or perhaps use Daniel Alfredsson there?

I know, I know, a little late for me to be mentioning this.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

HT, did you move Bergman to your 1st PP because of my quick comment about not liking Conacher on a 1st PP? I don't think it's ideal, but either Conacher or Chelios has to be better than Bergman, right? Or perhaps use Daniel Alfredsson there?

I know, I know, a little late for me to be mentioning this.

Yes your comment did spark the move...I went back and forth on it quite a bit. Chelios would be my first choice, but I'm kind of a stickler on shot handedness and Cameron is already a RHS (same reasoning applies to Alfie). Both Conacher and Bergman are less than ideal on a first unit, Conacher may be slightly better, but according to overpass' analysis Bergman did see PP time during the Summit Series and described him as "Nothing fancy - holds the point well, moves the puck quickly or throws it at the net," which will basically be his job here...he's the 5th man on a unit with a lot of other dangerous weapons, honestly, someone who just moves it along to a better option might be better than a guy who is always looking to shoot (not really sure how Conacher would be). Ultimately though, I thought that the extra minute for Conacher at ES would be more valuable than whatever benefit we would get out of him on the 1st unit, and that is probably amplified in a series against Gordie Howe, so for this one I'm going to leave it as is. If I'm lucky enough to make it to the Final, then I'll revisit the setup. Thanks for the feedback, even if a little late.