Speculation: Coaching Discussion

Robsker

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Nov 8, 2014
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I didn't mean scorched earth rebuild, but we have guys in Rockford that a lot of us have wanted to get ice time on the big club without going into Q's doghouse right away. If Q is gone and our expectations aren't "cup or bust" we can see how good these guys are. I would never advocate trading Kane, Keith, Crow, hell even Toews. It's just time to be smart about where the team is at and how do we get back to the 2010-2015 era as quickly and efficiently as possible. If it takes 2-3 years than so be it.

seems to me the Toews and the Seabrook salaries have to be off the books for the Hawks to have a legit start to a rebuild. Neither is tradeable given those salaries. As long as the Hawks carry 10.5 for Toews, 10.5 for Kane, and 6.75 for Seabs --- there is no $ to rebuild. The only one of those three you can trade is Kane --- if a great, young, multi-player return is out there, you consider it. Kane has great value and can be moved. hate to see it happen, but I would check to see what was out there (of course there are those pesky no-trade clauses in these contracts). Kane and Crow are our only valuable big-contract guys --- and our two best players. They are the only ones that can be moved and such is unlikely. No... I think the Hawks will be mid-level in the league (sometimes sneak into the playoffs, most times not) for the next 3-4 years until Seabs & Toews retire... then the rebuild will begin when we recoup the 17M these two make. Maybe Seabs retires next year --- that would be great. That would accelerate things.

First things first --- a coaching change.
 

Blue Liner

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Dec 12, 2009
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question, why ??

I have no interest in an older, recycled head coach. Let alone one that hasn't been in the league for a number of years. It's not remotely any disrespect to Sutter, I just want someone different who's a little more in tune with today's NHL game.

And I would take every Sutter brother as a coach before I'd want any part of Mike Keenan.
 

hawksfan50

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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But the real problem it seems to me is tge shooting%s of our team
..The back end simply is not elite at putting pucks past goalies as are the Dmen of several top teams in the league. .and our forwards also have poor shooting % below expectation for several of them ..Tge complaint is lack of net front presence ..but I see tge bigger is a lack of d-pointvcoring and lack of forwards with great 1 timers or great wrist shots beating goalies at rates equal to the hose on elite offenses in the league. .Quality and efficiency of shots is the biggest issue ..Part of this may indeed be the lack of break aways and 2 on 1s that we get or fail to finish enough of...such plays should be easier to beat goalies with due to no checker harassing the shooter ..but more concerning is our forwards inability to completely she'd theirv checkers 1 on on rushes and clear paths to the net ...watching the opps do that to our checkers we see how a lot ofvthe ir goals score on us...our inability or our style of lacking this nort-south she'd your check or rush pasta dman to.ke is a prime reason we fail to beat goalies enough. ...It becomes easy for defensive systems against us to just be paint as we play cucle and back to the point fir shots or cycle and get off poir quality shots from our forwards harassed by checkers close to them ..we do not got straight past anyone right to the goal as they do to us ...clear shot quality is a huge factor in scoring ...easier when you get a clear shot away with the checker far from you...The theory behind Q's system is to cycle till they tire and leave us able to fire a clear shot. .but good teams do not tire. .they justcwaitbitbour checking us till we goof up the puck back over to them or fire a routine shot that goalies easily stop. .THE other part of Q's system of us out shoiting teams is to posses the puck by superior passing and kerping pissesion to wait for the open guy..this worked when guys did get open by shedding their checks and because passes were crisp..But too often this season passes have not been crisp and the opps recover pucks too easily ...also forwards notvablecto park in the clear shooting lane spaces. .too often out of position for gocd shot position for clear path shots...seemingly a lack of innate sensing where to position but also even if they get to such spots occasionally the 0asding seems not to find them. .whatever Q and his system have not solved these issues. .Result is maybe lots of shots ..but too many routine for goalies to stop too easily ...So i ist a FAILING system.
So it is both a systems fail and an individual abilities to shed tge checkers fail plus Dmen who are sub-par in getyingnpointvshots past goalies. ADD all 3vofvtgese flaws and you get a pop-up offense.

.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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i would love to have Iron Mike back, just for finishing this season only. it can teach these new age hockey players what old school hockey is all about.

problem is, Iron Mike does like his pugilistic kind of enforcer/player.

I’m with you. I can’t be convinced the entire core has declined simultaneously until we see them pushed by someone who doesn’t care about their status. They look like they don’t give a shit anymore. Especially Toews, he’s so ho hum about everything now. WTF happened? He used to be one of the most driven people you’d ever see.
 
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LordKOTL

Abuse of Officials
Aug 15, 2014
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for me, it is a quick eye test to start with. stats/numbers do not lie.
But stats say nothing unless you know precicely what you're looking at. It's like trying to gauge a goalie with GAA. You can have 2 goalies: one with a with a 2.16 GAA, the other with a 2.38 GAA. The former sees 24 shots a night and is pulling a .910. The other is seeing in 34 shots a night and is pulling in a .930.

Who do you want backstopping ya? If you (royal you) only sees GAA, you're stuck with a .910 goalie. You should have tried door number 2. :)

That's the thing about +/-. It's based not just on how a player is, but how their linemates and goaltender are performing. You'd have to drill down Seabs' deployment and see how his +/- is vs. his prevalent partners, and his deployment when scoring and being scored upon.

On the surface Seabs doesn't seem head-and-shoulders ahead of his partners. maybe by 2 +/- points max

Keith on the other hand is below his partners.

Fun fact: a month ago both Seabs and Keith were -1 and -2 respectively. Both went 9 points in the opposite direction.

I think the lessened load has helped Seabrook, but I hesitate to say Seabs is "better" since Seabs put in a high-minute role would fail like Darling trying to stop a clear from center ice (too soon or not soon enough?). Keith I think is a combination of him still taking heavy minutes, plus no Crawford bailing the team out. Granted, Last night was Keith's fault and Keith's fault alone for his -4
 

CanCHI

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Dec 6, 2015
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We've had a great run, that we all can be very proud of, but it's time to stop kidding ourselves. 3 cups since 2010, and what should have been a 4th in 2014 (sigh). It's time to move on from competing and see what we currently have. Q's time is done. I haven't agreed with all of what he's done and he has been great for us, but it's time. Promote him upstairs or let him go to a team that's on the bubble. Find a coach that can work with this kids and develop them/see who's worth keeping. This is a great draft and with some luck we can get an impact player. Dump the UFA's for picks, call up Hinostroza, Pokka and Highmore. PLAY KEMPNY!!! Give Debrincat more minutes. Let the kids make mistakes and learn from them. If Kempny makes a mistake he's benched the whole game. Keith and Seabrook get more minutes. We need a coach who will hold the vets accountable yet not crush the young guys. I don't want to see us become the next Detroit. Thoughts?

NHL is so wide open and not one team in the west scares me so no don't blow it up. Last 2 cup finalists from West are San Jose and Nashville. And yes of course i understand Nashville beat us 4-0 last year but they still aren't a team that strikes fear even if we faced them again.
 

Robsker

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Nov 8, 2014
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I’m with you. I can’t be convinced the entire core has declined simultaneously until we see them pushed by someone who doesn’t care about their status. They look like they don’t give a **** anymore. Especially Toews, he’s so ho hum about everything now. WTF happened? He used to be one of the most driven people you’d ever see.

Good question re; Toews lack of drive. maybe lack of confidence? Knowing he is done and having a problem dealing with it... denial and the distraction that comes from it? Who knows? But he is lacking in drive and does not seem to be suitably driven to get better. Not good for a captain. No one in the locker room seems to be accepting the fact that this team will win only if it out-hustles and out-hearts their opposition. They still seem to think excellence will somehow come to them. The notion of effort compensating for declining skill on the team as the only answer seems to have escaped them all. Perhaps if they finish in last place this year in the division, the notion that "we are a great team not playing so well" will go away. Maybe then (or, ideally sooner) they get desperate. If not... then the record can get ugly (uglier).
 
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LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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But stats say nothing unless you know precicely what you're looking at. It's like trying to gauge a goalie with GAA. You can have 2 goalies: one with a with a 2.16 GAA, the other with a 2.38 GAA. The former sees 24 shots a night and is pulling a .910. The other is seeing in 34 shots a night and is pulling in a .930.

Who do you want backstopping ya? If you (royal you) only sees GAA, you're stuck with a .910 goalie. You should have tried door number 2. :)

That's the thing about +/-. It's based not just on how a player is, but how their linemates and goaltender are performing. You'd have to drill down Seabs' deployment and see how his +/- is vs. his prevalent partners, and his deployment when scoring and being scored upon.

On the surface Seabs doesn't seem head-and-shoulders ahead of his partners. maybe by 2 +/- points max

Keith on the other hand is below his partners.

Fun fact: a month ago both Seabs and Keith were -1 and -2 respectively. Both went 9 points in the opposite direction.

I think the lessened load has helped Seabrook, but I hesitate to say Seabs is "better" since Seabs put in a high-minute role would fail like Darling trying to stop a clear from center ice (too soon or not soon enough?). Keith I think is a combination of him still taking heavy minutes, plus no Crawford bailing the team out. Granted, Last night was Keith's fault and Keith's fault alone for his -4

i am not going to grit my teeth and say that many of what you thoughts you are saying i agree with. however i do not know the whole new stat driven nhl. but as i said before, i will base my limited knowledge with the eye test first.

what i know is seabs and keith are 33 and 34 yr old respectfully, they both have a nmc on their contract and their contract will take them for the next 6 and 5 yr respectfully. i am not taking into consideration the new contract will come into effect. the other thing i know is, the team defensive core, 1/3 of it is and will be old and getting older and are in the prime part of their decline and maybe starting with the other.

so this tells me the team is screw even if the team fixes the coaching problem, let alone the salary cap issue.

now tell me how to fix this team and pls do not bet on the salary buyout, b/c it is not a sure thing.
 
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LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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I’m with you. I can’t be convinced the entire core has declined simultaneously until we see them pushed by someone who doesn’t care about their status. They look like they don’t give a **** anymore. Especially Toews, he’s so ho hum about everything now. WTF happened? He used to be one of the most driven people you’d ever see.
with or without Iron Mike, the coach needs a full 2 weeks of hard practice and this country club environment is not working any more
 
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ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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The obvious move is trading Crawford. Teams want him, he deserves better and with this one move we finish dead last and get a shot at a new superstar to build around.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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with or without Iron Mike, the coach needs a full 2 weeks of hard practice and this country club environment is not working anyone.

Agreed, nothing to lose. I wish it would happen. Bag skate these bums. 50 is right.
 

LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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Good question re; Toews lack of drive. maybe lack of confidence? Knowing he is done and having a problem dealing with it... denial and the distraction that comes from it? Who knows? But he is lacking in drive and does not seem to be suitably driven to get better. Not good for a captain. No one in the locker room seems to be accepting the fact that this team will win only if it out-hustles and out-hearts their opposition. They still seem to think excellence will somehow come to them. The notion of effort compensating for declining skill on the team as the only answer seems to have escaped them all. Perhaps if they finish in last place this year in the division, the notion that "we are a great team not playing so well" will go away. Maybe then (or, ideally sooner) they get desperate. If not... then the record can get ugly (uglier).
man this is a great post. the far superior thoughts is always out hustle the opposing team, but they still needs the talent to show up.
 

Putt Pirate

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Dec 15, 2015
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Well, Stanley and the Hawks mgmt. team thought extending Seabrook forever for millions more than he was worth was the right idea. For them to think out of the box and trade Crawford is not going to happen. they would probably overpay a plug to replace him erasing any benefit. Just how Stan is......a chronic overpayer. Hell, last year he overpaid Panik. Remember the quote from him? Basically surprised it was that much. Stan being Stan.
 
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LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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The obvious move is trading Crawford. Teams want him, he deserves better and with this one move we finish dead last and get a shot at a new superstar to build around.
ok, i will respect that, but i am a little confuse. do you really want to place your whole faith in Forsberg ??

the best way is and hope that the team gets into the top 5 of this yr draft.
 

ColdSteel2

Registered User
Aug 27, 2010
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Good question re; Toews lack of drive. maybe lack of confidence? Knowing he is done and having a problem dealing with it... denial and the distraction that comes from it? Who knows? But he is lacking in drive and does not seem to be suitably driven to get better. Not good for a captain. No one in the locker room seems to be accepting the fact that this team will win only if it out-hustles and out-hearts their opposition. They still seem to think excellence will somehow come to them. The notion of effort compensating for declining skill on the team as the only answer seems to have escaped them all. Perhaps if they finish in last place this year in the division, the notion that "we are a great team not playing so well" will go away. Maybe then (or, ideally sooner) they get desperate. If not... then the record can get ugly (uglier).

Yeah, I think you’re right. He’s in a delusional phase right now. Everything is fine, everything is great. Before I thought it was Yoko, like he was blinded by love and didn’t care as much about the rest of his life. Now, hell, even she is probably telling him stop doing my diet and workouts, you look weak out there dude. I’m tired of looking for excuses for him. He’s too young for this.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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ok, i will respect that, but i am a little confuse. do you really want to place your whole faith in Forsberg ??

the best way is and hope that the team gets into the top 5 of this yr draft.

Yeah, and I think he will fail to learn and we’ll get the top 5 pick. Hey, I’m not saying he is a starter but we can start to find out.
 

LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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Yeah, and I think he will fail to learn and we’ll get the top 5 pick. Hey, I’m not saying he is a starter but we can start to find out.
in that case, i would like to add this little snippet. assuming that Forsberg is the Bhawks goalie of the future, then lets roll the dice with him and use this season as on the job training.
 

Rolo

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Aug 9, 2011
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WHy can't the Hawks 'declining' players bounce-back under a new coach ala Kopitar, Brown and Gaborik in LAK.

Why cant the Hawks win another cup with Toews and Kane, when Pittsburgh won wit Crosby at age 30 and Malkin at age 31?

Why can't cant Hawks succeed with a 'mediocre' defense core, when Pittsburgh won with Maatta, Dumoulin, injured Schultz, Hainsey, Cole.

Imo do not write this team off unless they get a new Coach and continue to fail
Q has got to GO...,
 

Blackhawkswincup

RIP Fugu
Jun 24, 2007
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Kings also fired GM as did Pens

So Bowman has got to go as well to follow paths of those organizations

And there is no turning back clock on Seabrook no matter who is coach
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
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Went ahead and merged some stuff to create an all-encompassing coaching discussion topic. I think it's best for the general board flow to have a concentrated discussion rather than have a new topic created every so often. We also already have a management discussion thread, too.
 

LDF

Registered User
Sep 28, 2016
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WHy can't the Hawks 'declining' players bounce-back under a new coach ala Kopitar, Brown and Gaborik in LAK.

Why cant the Hawks win another cup with Toews and Kane, when Pittsburgh won wit Crosby at age 30 and Malkin at age 31?

Why can't cant Hawks succeed with a 'mediocre' defense core, when Pittsburgh won with Maatta, Dumoulin, injured Schultz, Hainsey, Cole.

Imo do not write this team off unless they get a new Coach and continue to fail
Q has got to GO...,
the bottom line is this, the org needs to recognize and in doing so, then they, the FO will need to react to it and thereby stating and acknowledging that the gm screwed up. i believe SB will not do this.
 

LDF

Registered User
Sep 28, 2016
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Barring something unforeseen, it is highly likely Bowman will be allowed to hire his own coach before he gets an axe.
it would be ashame that SB would be release. he does, in my opinion a really good job in drafting and with that scouting.

i said this last yr, the Bhawks would be better off if they reduce his primary role for what he does great and hiring another person of contracts, fa signing and trades.
 

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