Claude Julien - What is the plan with our Roster?

[Zam Boni]

6 years does not mean we should be a cup contender. We can easily be a top 10 team next year and we are still not a cup contender. So no, we should no know by now. Evaluating a GM based on no cup in 6 years is not smart IMO. With me, I have my eye on our prospect pool and the next draft where we will have 5 more top 100 picks and maybe if we are lucky, a lottery pick win.

Last time we picked 1st overall was in 1980. Here is a list of our top 10 picks since 1980
1980: Wickeneiser (1st)
1979: Hunter (7th)
1984: Svoboda (5th)
1995: Ryan (8th)
2001: Komisarek (7th)
2003: Kostitsyn (10th)
2005: Price (5th)
2012: Galchenyuk (3rd)
2016: Sergachev (9th)

9 top 10 picks in 38 years of drafting (our average 1st round pick was 17 I believe). This team is not going anywhere until we acquire more top 10 picks in a smaller span of years.

Yes, that's history.
What is the plan?
Where is this team headed?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, that's history.
What is the plan?
Where is this team headed?

- History shows you we don't draft in the top 10 too often.

- What is the plan? Well, the plan is not what happened this past off season but sometimes plans don't go your way because players have other plans.

- Where are we heading? Well, we are at a critical point with Bergevin and his next steps are crucial. He needs to accept that our best move is to take a few steps back. A short hair cut to allow us to grow again is the smart move. I don't support any move that improves our age 25 and above core (unless it's Tavares but that is unlikely).

 

[NotProkofievian]

1) Stars > Habs. We can argue about the reasons why they are better than us but they are. Therefore, Radulov choose the better players to play with. You can get upset all you want but this is what I read from what Radulov said.

No, we can't. The stars and the habs are, at this point, their GM's teams. Bergevin even said that this year, the team was built as he wanted it. There is one person who is responsible for the habs as they are right now. Marc ''trades are hard'' Bergevin.

2) If you have been criticizing Bergevin for not signing Radulov for two years for some time now, why did you stop? Why not continue with it? This is something I wanted too BTW.

??? I didn't stop. I've made a few lengthy posts about how a 1 year deal was stupid. It was made more stupid by the fact that Bergy didn't even have to think of it. Radulov did the work for him. Bergevin was just too stupid to realize it was the better move.

Bergevin has a real problem with 0 payoff moves. Not just the Subban trade, but the entire Subban situation from day 1 is the best example of this. The Radulov fiasco is another. I would add the Shaw trade in this as well although that's just an example of terrible asset management.

3) Sergachev for Drouin. Drouin is only 22 and locked up on a very team friendly deal. We didn't trade Sergachev for age 25 or 30+

It's a 4 year loss. What did we gain for the loss of those 4 years? Nothing.

4) I don't support this "go for it now" because our window to win is closing fast. Even after we traded Subban for Weber. Weber is not age 35+

Then you shouldn't have supported the Drouin trade. Simple as that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Then you shouldn't have supported the Drouin trade. Simple as that.

You act like Drouin is age 30 or something. Simple as that.

I am looking for a few things with any additions to our roster.
- Players on team friendly contracts
- Players that are age 25 or under and under team control for several years
- Prospects that are age 20 and under
- Top 100 picks in the next 3 drafts.

If we accomplish this, I will be happy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

- History shows you we don't draft in the top 10 too often.

- What is the plan? Well, the plan is not what happened this past off season but sometimes plans don't go your way because players have other plans.

- Where are we heading? Well, we are at a critical point with Bergevin and his next steps are crucial. He needs to accept that our best move is to take a few steps back. A short hair cut to allow us to grow again is the smart move. I don't support any move that improves our age 25 and above core (unless it's Tavares but that is unlikely).

Nobody is judging MB based on him not having a cup. He's being judged based on what he's done over his six years here. And what he's done is take a young team and wreck it to the point where five years later we're looking at a full rebuild.

There is no plan. That should be painfully obvious by now. Says he'll build through the draft and then makes 'win it now' type moves. Makes 'win it now' type moves but then doesn't bolster the roster by dealing picks and prospects for more vets... Doesn't rebuild, doesn't do enough to win it now. The result? We're a mess.

Where are we heading? Well currently we're headed towards last place with 9 million in cap space to boot. That's a shocking development considering the club that MB inherited. There's absolutely no excuse for this and he richly deserves a firing. There's absolutely no way he should be in charge of a rebuild going forward.

Edit: Whoops, just realized this is a CJ topic.

 

[teamfirst]

Nobody is judging MB based on him not having a cup. He's being judged based on what he's done over his six years here. And what he's done is take a young team and wreck it to the point where five years later we're looking at a full rebuild.

There is no plan. That should be painfully obvious by now. Says he'll build through the draft and then makes 'win it now' type moves. Makes 'win it now' type moves but then doesn't bolster the roster by dealing picks and prospects for more vets... Doesn't rebuild, doesn't do enough to win it now. The result? We're a mess.

Where are we heading? Well currently we're headed towards last place with 9 million in cap space to boot. That's a shocking development considering the club that MB inherited. There's absolutely no excuse for this and he richly deserves a firing. There's absolutely no way he should be in charge of a rebuild going forward.

Edit: Whoops, just realized this is a CJ topic.

habs where 16th overall between 2007 and 2012, and are 8th between 2012 and 2017, correct me if i'm wrong but i see an amelioration there, that's why i'm incline to wait a couple more years and see where it's goes, but hey it's all me, patience always been my motto

 

[yianik]

Only one certainty, do not play Chucky at centre, could cost us.

 

[Habs100]

habs where 16th overall between 2007 and 2012, and are 8th between 2012 and 2017, correct me if i'm wrong but i see an amelioration there, that's why i'm incline to wait a couple more years and see where it's goes, but hey it's all me, patience always been my motto

Is that based on the regular season or the playoffs.

And with our current summer moves and roster, get ready for us to free fall from 8th.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

habs where 16th overall between 2007 and 2012, and are 8th between 2012 and 2017, correct me if i'm wrong but i see an amelioration there,

That is a very limited way of looking at things. I'd expand on this but it's a CJ thread.

 

[NotProkofievian]

You act like Drouin is age 30 or something. Simple as that.

I am looking for a few things with any additions to our roster.
- Players on team friendly contracts
- Players that are age 25 or under and under team control for several years
- Prospects that are age 20 and under
- Top 100 picks in the next 3 drafts.

If we accomplish this, I will be happy.

Lol, how long did you wait to edit this post? I'm not sure why you did it as it has nothing to do with any of the points that I made.

 

[Habs100]

With Petry playing so well with the extra minutes and responsibilites, on tsn690 they're wondering if he should be the one to play 25 minutes a night with Weber.

They wonder if he can play the left side.

Personally I'd like to see that pair. But if Weber can play on the left side, I'd love to see him on the left side for his one timer all game, not just on the power play. That would be a huge boost for the pp.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Lol, how long did you wait to edit this post? I'm not sure why you did it as it has nothing to do with any of the points that I made.

Yes, the opening line addressed the point you made. You think I should of not supported the Sergachev for Drouin trade because for some reason, you think Drouin is already over the hill or something. If it's not the case, what is? With Drouin, we got a very good young talent in the NHL and he will be loyal to the Habs for a very long time. It was a good trade but somehow you want to flip this into a bad trade. Not sure of your motives

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yes, the opening line addressed the point you made. You think I should of not supported the Sergachev for Drouin trade because for some reason, you think Drouin is already over the hill or something. If it's not the case, what is? With Drouin, we got a very good young talent in the NHL and he will be loyal to the Habs for a very long time. It was a good trade but somehow you want to flip this into a bad trade. Not sure of your motives

With Sergachev we all acknowledged that there was a chance that Sergachev could be even better than Drouin (except for a few who suspiciously haven't posted in anything Sergachev recently lol). We were prepared to pay the price for one last kick at the can while there was any possibility of us going far in the playoffs. That's the context which makes the move sensible. But that context never came. Therefore it would be better to keep the younger player, no? Especially since you seem to think that the players are equal?

 

[Habs Halifax]

With Sergachev we all acknowledged that there was a chance that Sergachev could be even better than Drouin (except for a few who suspiciously haven't posted in anything Sergachev recently lol). We were prepared to pay the price for one last kick at the can while there was any possibility of us going far in the playoffs. That's the context which makes the move sensible. But that context never came. Therefore it would be better to keep the younger player, no? Especially since you seem to think that the players are equal?

I think it was a good trade for both teams. The only key part of the trade was the conditional 2nd (17 more games to go). If we don't get that 2nd back, I think Tampa definitely wins that trade. I'm not one to look at Sergachev (playing on a good team like Tampa) for Drouin (playing on a struggling team like the Habs), If the situation was reversed, Sergachev does not have that same start and Drouin appears to be worth more because he's racking up the points with the talent he would be playing with in Tampa.

Maybe I am bias because I watched Drouin very closely here in Halifax but this kid is a key piece for us. We need to surround him with talent similar to his age. He can play both wings position and center so it's a good asset for us. We needed him.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I think it was a good trade for both teams. The only key part of the trade was the conditional 2nd (17 more games to go). If we don't get that 2nd back, I think Tampa definitely wins that trade. I'm not one to look at Sergachev (playing on a good team like Tampa) for Drouin (playing on a struggling team like the Habs), If the situation was reversed, Sergachev does not have that same start and Drouin appears to be worth more because he's racking up the points with the talent he would be playing with in Tampa.

Maybe I am bias because I watched Drouin very closely here in Halifax but this kid is a key piece for us. We need to surround him with talent similar to his age. He can play both wings position and center so it's a good asset for us. We needed him.

Ah yes, the Montreal law of prospects: for some small delta, there exists an epsilon arbitrarily close to zero such that if the prospect is closer to Montreal than delta, his production is smaller than epsilon.

Trades are never lost by Montreal because ''he wouldn't do that here.''

The bolded is actually further to my point. If you look at the recent cup teams, their key players were generally speaking drafted within 5 years of one another. 2003-2008 for L.A., 2003-2007 for Chicago, 2003-2006 for Pittsburgh. You need the most amount of elite talent grouped as tightly as possible to have a real chance at a cup. You're on record saying that tanking is what's good for us. Doesn't it make sense to have the younger player as he's closer in age to the players you'll draft during your tank? If we take 5 years to be the acceptable spread for your core players, this draft is it, assuming Price, Weber, and Patch are just not part of the solution.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ah yes, the Montreal law of prospects: for some small delta, there exists an epsilon arbitrarily close to zero such that if the prospect is closer to Montreal than delta, his production is smaller than epsilon.

Trades are never lost by Montreal because ''he wouldn't do that here.''

The bolded is actually further to my point. If you look at the recent cup teams, their key players were generally speaking drafted within 5 years of one another. 2003-2008 for L.A., 2003-2007 for Chicago, 2003-2006 for Pittsburgh. You need the most amount of elite talent grouped as tightly as possible to have a real chance at a cup. You're on record saying that tanking is what's good for us. Doesn't it make sense to have the younger player as he's closer in age to the players you'll draft during your tank? If we take 5 years to be the acceptable spread for your core players, this draft is it, assuming Price, Weber, and Patch are just not part of the solution.

With the core we have and Price in net, we don't really have an option to do a Pens, Blackhawks, or Leafs rebuild. I want our age 25 and under core to keep improving and I have no problem with that group being lead by Price/Weber. They are not old tomorrow. Patch and Pleky need to go this year though IMO. Galchenyuk needs to be showcased and we can trade him for multiple pieces who are very close to NHL ready or already in the NHL. Teams are most definitely interested in Galchenyuk. I prefer to keep him but I don't think he re-signs so it's best to recoup younger assets for him.

Drouin is age 22. Just stop it! Stop pretending that he is old already. It was a solid trade for the Habs. Sergachev will be very good and so will Drouin if we can add the pieces we need around him through prospects and free agency or trades. This teams needs more offense and speed and Drouin brings that for us. It was a good trade for both teams but you are the one who is talking about who won or lost the trade already

Yes, I want us to tank this year as this is the card we were dealt. No sense chasing after the straight or flush at this stage as we are competing against teams with a full house once the playoffs come. We need to stay patient and capitalize on circumstance with the core we have.

 

[NotProkofievian]

With the core we have and Price in net, we don't really have an option to do a Pens, Blackhawks, or Leafs rebuild. I want our age 25 and under core to keep improving and I have no problem with that group being lead by Price/Weber. They are not old tomorrow.

Price is 8 years older than Drouin. Weber is 9 years older than Drouin.

So much for wanting to surround him with talent similar to him in age.

''You act like Price and Weber aren't over 30. Period.''

Drouin is age 22. Just stop it! Stop pretending that he is old already. It was a solid trade for the Habs. Sergachev will be very good and so will Drouin if we can add the pieces we need around him through prospects and free agency or trades.

It's more expensive to do that than to just tank. To tank you bring more assets into the organization which are concentrated in their maturity. To surround a 22 or 23 year old you have to spend assets on more mature, and thus more expensive players.

Yes, I want us to tank this year as this is the card we were dealt. No sense chasing after the straight or flush at this stage as we are competing against teams with a full house once the playoffs come. We need to stay patient and capitalize on circumstance with the core we have.

Capitalizing on a single lottery pick isn't going to do anything, and it's much less likely with the lottery rules now. You need multiple chances at the top of the draft. Like Toronto or Edmonton. I mean, I really like Oliver Wahlstrom for example, but if we get him in the draft that doesn't make us a cup contender.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Price is 8 years older than Drouin. Weber is 9 years older than Drouin.

So much for wanting to surround him with talent similar to him in age.

''You act like Price and Weber aren't over 30. Period.''.

- Goalies don't decline as fast as speedy forwards do in their 30's. Give us a break with this Price is old tomorrow BS!

- Weber's game is not build on speed. Therefore, it will not affect his game as much as it will with Subban in his 30's. I'm fine with Weber for the next 5 years (32-36). He's going to be a very good player for us no matter how you spin things

- Couture is 10 years younger than Thornton and Marleau. Didn't stop them from almost winning a cup a few seasons ago?

My apologizes but I just squashed your age gap negative propaganda.

 

[NotProkofievian]

- Goalies don't decline as fast as speedy forwards do in their 30's. Give us a break with this Price is old tomorrow BS!

- Weber's game is not build on speed. Therefore, it will not affect his game as much as it will with Subban in his 30's. I'm fine with Weber for the next 5 years (32-36). He's going to be a very good player for us no matter how you spin things

- Couture is 10 years younger than Thornton and Marleau. Didn't stop them from almost winning a cup a few seasons ago?

My apologizes but I just squashed your age gap negative propaganda.

You did nothing of the sort. You just said Weber and Price will be good players. Who cares. They're not going to win us a cup. They're not going to all of a sudden metamorphose into something we haven't seen from them before. If anything it's likely Price will never equal or surpass his 2015 performance (wasn't enough) and Weber will likely never surpass 50 points again (wasn't enough in Nashville either). This is just more name salad from you. The goal is to win a cup. That's what you have to argue. Not that certain players will be good until the end of their career, that they're going to lead us to a cup.

San Jose actually supports my argument. They got their chance at the cup, and they didn't win, and shortly after their core was split up. You need multiple chances with a preponderance of elite talent to win a cup. All of that supports the idea of a concentrated tank.

And finally, you said that we need to surround Drouin with talent around the same age. Why on earth would we need to do that if you ''squashed [the] age gap negative propaganda.''

 

[gillyguzzler]

It's not the right place to say it but I do like most of our players.

Danault - terrific all around player.
Patches - struggling but I can't deny his goal totals for the past many years.
Shaw - playing better and better and much smarter than last year.
Drouin - so skilled and a treat to watch most of the time.
Chucky - also very skilled and a treat to watch when he's confident. Just wished he was stronger on the puck.
Lekhonen - good young versatile and complete player
Byron - so fast, pretty skilled and hard working
Plek - never mind his salary, he's playing well as the 3C
Gallaguer - one of the hardest workers in the league.
Hudon - still a rookie, he's also fun to watch.

That's 10 good forwards!

So what's the problem? Only two centers there and most are small. It's not the individual players, it's the group as constructed by Bergevin.

Add to that a weakened defence and it's cause for concern.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

With Sergachev we all acknowledged that there was a chance that Sergachev could be even better than Drouin (except for a few who suspiciously haven't posted in anything Sergachev recently lol). We were prepared to pay the price for one last kick at the can while there was any possibility of us going far in the playoffs. That's the context which makes the move sensible. But that context never came. Therefore it would be better to keep the younger player, no? Especially since you seem to think that the players are equal?

I was actually fairly certain Sergachev would establish himself as the better player and he was my pre-season pick to win the calder. Sergachev was the best prospect at his position the league has seen in ages and I can't believe we gave up on that. I was one of the very few who were 100% against the trade right at the time.

I said that even full expecting Drouin to build on last season's success. Prospects of Sergachev's caliber almost never get traded and this is why. We have gifted Tampa a 19 year old behemoth who is already one of the top offensive dmen in the league, for Galchenyuk 2.0. Drouin was worth adding, but pretty uch any trade that included Sergachev meant we were going to lose.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I was actually fairly certain Sergachev would establish himself as the better player and he was my pre-season pick to win the calder. Sergachev was the best prospect at his position the league has seen in ages and I can't believe we gave up on that. I was one of the very few who were 100% against the trade right at the time.

I said that even full expecting Drouin to build on last season's success. Prospects of Sergachev's caliber almost never get traded and this is why. We have gifted Tampa a 19 year old behemoth who is already one of the top offensive dmen in the league, for Galchenyuk 2.0. Drouin was worth adding, but pretty uch any trade that included Sergachev meant we were going to lose.

That's a bold call but it's looking pretty good so far. I was somewhere in the middle. I wasn't nearly so down on Sergachev as some were, as I felt he had to improve only a single aspect in his game to be an NHLer. He otherwise looked awesome. But I called Bergy a cheap bastard because he wasn't willing to pay Sergachev to upgrade our offence at the deadline. Embarrassing, but I said that knowing that last year was one of our last and probably best chance to go for it. This year? Forget about it. Trading Sergachev for Drouin followed by that off-season is just non-sense.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

That's a bold call but it's looking pretty good so far. I was somewhere in the middle. I wasn't nearly so down on Sergachev as some were, as I felt he had to improve only a single aspect in his game to be an NHLer. He otherwise looked awesome. But I called Bergy a cheap bastard because he wasn't willing to pay Sergachev to upgrade our offence at the deadline. Embarrassing, but I said that knowing that last year was one of our last and probably best chance to go for it. This year? Forget about it. Trading Sergachev for Drouin followed by that off-season is just non-sense.

I never really understood all the hype of Drouin. Galchenyuk gets a ton of criticism here and Drouin has accomplished even less. I just didn't see the franchise player upside that so many thought we were getting.

I thought if we were going to move Sergachev it would be part of a home run swing to go for it all, like making him part of a deal for Tavares. Its sad how after last season I saw enough promise to go all in on someone like Tavares to make a legit run for the cup, but now I'm just thinking we should blow it all up.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I thought it was interesting when Recchi was interviewed by the tall young guy with the sweet hair on TSN that he said it took a couple of years for the Bruins to adjust to Juliens system.

Early on this year my greatest concern was really all the blown coverages defensively. It seems though lately those happen incredibly rarely as opposed to a half dozen times a game. Perhaps the team is finally adjusted?

 

[Cobra Commander]

It takes Clode 5 games to see what the average fan could see after 2 games, he's slow at adjusting, makes many weird decisions... I donno..