Claude Julien - What is the plan with our Roster?

[JLP]

Bergevin: Not every move he makes is bad.

This defence is funnier than last year.

 

[groovejuice]

I don’t see what people saw in Beaulieu. I think the risk in his game always out weighed the reward by a large margin. A guy like Emelin could’ve been replaced for much cheaper then throwing a bunch of money at a UFA like Alzner. Throwing up a pick or lesser prospect for a cheaper player would’ve been a lot better then having Alzner on the payroll at that price for the next 5 years.

The 3 year deal on Galchenyuk was simple, the only way his cap and salary made to Chucky and his agent is if took him to UFA quicker. We saw this with Kucherov the year prior.

As for the bolded, I never once said Bergevin wasn’t working on a deal. I said he was lowballing and destroyed it. We were going to have to pay to keep Radulov as we were in no position to let him go given how tough goals were to come by. We lowballed until the final hour when a team who offered more had done everything but sign the official documents. And we may have matched the contract last minute, but when you add taxes and quality of linemates, it still doesn’t compare. Just pay the guy the extra $1 million to stay instead of throwing money down the drain on guys like Hemsky and Streit. I can understand if we felt after extending Radulov, that we just wouldn’t have enough room to keep Markov, but with Radulov gone, there was no excuse either. I’m not sure how you can defend this.

Bergevin wasn't just low-balling. He also hard-balling, drop-balling, and kicking-yourself-in-the-balling. He created his own perfect storm by making Radulov a UFA with that narrow minded one year contract.

And before anyone says it's smart to hedge bets, let me remind you of the contracts given to far lesser players, Shaw, Plekanec, Alzner... et al.

From the start of the pitifully short Radulov era, Bergevin miscalculated everything possible. Forcing free agency after a single season, thinking a player playing to up his value would sign mid-season, negotiating with Arsenic rather than honey as a strategy, and assuming he wouldn't have to compete with other teams.

For us, it's easy to look at things in retrospect, but an NHL GM hasn't got that advantage. An NHL GM must valuate players correctly, and proactively take the steps to sign highly valuable players, especially when no assets need be spent in the process. It was a debacle from the get go and the team is worse for it.

It's staggering that so many here are making excuses for a long series of missteps by Bergevin that were bizarre, short sighted and self defeating from the beginning.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you not understand how strong this claim is and how you have 0 evidence for it? For example, Radulov might have been signed for a 2 year deal like he initially wanted and Bergevin refused . Or he might have been given a larger offer before the trade deadline opened, without being given a ''take it or leave it'' ultimatum in the media.



It's in the process of not working out for us. The move was defensible from the standpoint that he was going to add Drouin to our team and make a run for it while our core isn't making Oprah money. None of that happened, though. Now you're simultaneously trying to argue in several different places that tanking was Bergevin's brilliant plan all along (not 2 months after you argued that we were a top 10 team), and that trading our best prospect made sense.

Like...what?



I didn't link Radulov to our prospect pool. I linked losing Sergachev to our prospect pool. That was the single largest deletion from our talent pool since McDonagh for Gomez.

1) Stars > Habs. Wake up! Radulov choose a better overall option and I don't blame him for that. What I blame Bergevin for is not signing Radulov to a 3 year deal from the beginning. That would of be a better angle to criticize him on IMO.

2) Subban (team he played for made the cup finals) > Weber (team he played for lost in the 1st round) ==== Sergachev (team he plays for is 2nd at the moment) > Drouin (team he plays for is 27th at the moment). This was a solid trade for the Habs but because Drouin is struggling on a team that is struggling, you want to say what? Drouin is not equal to Sergachev? Come on man!

3) I said that we WERE a consistent top 10 team due to being one of the best defense teams (Those were not opinions.. they were facts). I underestimated how bad of a season Price and our D would have to start the year. Silly me for not predicting Price would not be the guy we know he has been. I have no problem admitting I was wrong... and I was wrong about our D! You need to learn to from me and admit where you were wrong too Will you? Doubt it

There is no brilliant plan. There is only circumstance. Look at Sakic, his "brilliant" plan only worked because the Preds were able to come into the picture and sign Turris. Patienct pays off but you have to be willing to wait in order to be patient. Something where a huge % of our fan base is not prepared to do.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Markov signed fair deals all his career here. Why did all of a sudden he would be a greedy sob?

Yeah, Bergevin signed Markov to the last contract too. Markov was simply asking for too much this time around. No way I support giving him $6M+ for a guy that is 39 this playoffs and has 3pts in his last 18 playoff games. He's paid to provide offense, not play a defensive game. Heck, Alzner can provide a solid defense game at a fraction of the cost and can last a 82 game schedule too!

Markov back for one year deal at $5M was not a bad offer and I suspect Bergevin was offering something close to that.

 

[MaxDummy]

Patienct pays off but you have to be willing to wait in order to be patient. Something where a huge % of our fan base is not prepared to do.

BS. People here are hoping for a rebuild.. We can be patient if we trust the guy in charge.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We could and MB chose not to. That's Where you're wrong.

We could not.

- We don't have anyone as good as Seguin and Benn
- We don't have a team that is as good as the Stars
- We have a city that has significant higher taxes vs Dallas
- Weather is warmer in Dallas.

I showed you 4 reason why. Where are yours? I guess you think if we gave him $7M+ for 5 years, he would of signed with us for sure right eh? Because of this, it's our GM's fault. I see no explanation other than this and it's yet another BS reason to blame our GM.

 

[Habs Halifax]

BS. People here are hoping for a rebuild.. We can be patient if we trust the guy in charge.

Well, hold on. We are going to find out very soon what we are going to do this year. Trades are going to go down and lets see what direction we take. I'm ok with Trading Pleky, Patch, Galchenyuk as long as it improves our age 25 and under core. Price and Weber with a young core is not a bad situation.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Bergevin wasn't just low-balling. He also hard-balling, drop-balling, and kicking-yourself-in-the-balling. He created his own perfect storm by making Radulov a UFA with that narrow minded one year contract.

And before anyone says it's smart to hedge bets, let me remind you of the contracts given to far lesser players, Shaw, Plekanec, Alzner... et al.

From the start of the pitifully short Radulov era, Bergevin miscalculated everything possible. Forcing free agency after a single season, thinking a player playing to up his value would sign mid-season, negotiating with Arsenic rather than honey as a strategy, and assuming he wouldn't have to compete with other teams.

For us, it's easy to look at things in retrospect, but an NHL GM hasn't got that advantage. An NHL GM must valuate players correctly, and proactively take the steps to sign highly valuable players, especially when no assets need be spent in the process. It was a debacle from the get go and the team is worse for it.

It's staggering that so many here are making excuses for a long series of missteps by Bergevin that were bizarre, short sighted and self defeating from the beginning.

My issue is how many mistakes have accumulated over the last two seasons. His offseasons have been atrocious. Mistake after mistake after mistake. And they aren’t small mistakes. I could live with the Drouin trade, but the fact he’s glued to a first line Center role is a joke. My personal opinion on that is Claude Julien has little say in Drouin being there. It’s a scapegoat to say we finally addressed the Center role when we actually haven’t.

 

[MaxDummy]

Heck, Alzner can provide a solid defense game at a fraction of the cost and can last a 82 game schedule too!

Markov is better offensivly AND on defense vs Alzner.. Anyway you said it was unfair to Alzner to compare him to Markov..

Also, 1y/5M is fine but 1y/6-7M is a no go? Wth... We have 8+ on the freaking cap

 

[NotProkofievian]

1) Stars > Habs. Wake up! Radulov choose a better overall option and I don't blame him for that. What I blame Bergevin for is not signing Radulov to a 3 year deal from the beginning. That would of be a better angle to criticize him on IMO.

1.) Who the f***'s fault is it that Stars > Habs? Nill has done more with Dallas in terms of player acquisition in less time than Bergevin. What argument do you think you're making here?

2.) I have been criticizing Bergevin for flat out refusing to sign Radulov to a 2 year contract for some time now. I don't know where you've been.

2) Subban (team he played for made the cup finals) > Weber (team he played for lost in the 1st round) ==== Sergachev (team he plays for is 2nd at the moment) > Drouin (team he plays for is 27th at the moment). This was a solid trade for the Habs but because Drouin is struggling on a team that is struggling, you want to say what? Drouin is not equal to Sergachev? Come on man!

If you're going to tank ----> keep your elite prospects.

If you're going to go for it ----> it makes sense to trade them for more immediate help.

It's just that in this particular case Bergevin is trying to tank by trading a prospect who could immediately be better than the player he traded for. Worst of both worlds.

3) I said that we WERE a consistent top 10 team due to being one of the best defense teams (Those were not opinions.. they were facts). I underestimated how bad of a season Price and our D would have to start the year. Silly me for not predicting Price would not be the guy we know he has been. I have no problem admitting I was wrong... and I was wrong about our D! You need to learn to from me and admit where you were wrong too Will you? Doubt it

I challenge you to show me where I'm wrong. And no, saying ''open your eyes'' doesn't count, believe it or not.

There is no brilliant plan. There is only circumstance. Look at Sakic, his "brilliant" plan only worked because the Preds were able to come into the picture and sign Turris. Patienct pays off but you have to be willing to wait in order to be patient. Something where a huge % of our fan base is not prepared to do.

How's your ''year by year'' evaluation of Bergevin going? Seen enough that you want to see more? lol.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Markov is better offensivly AND on defense vs Alzner.. Anyway you said it was unfair to Alzner to compare him to Markov..

Also, 1y/5M is fine but 1y/6-7M is a no go? Wth... We have 8+ on the freaking cap

Markov is not better offensively when you consider when we need his offense. If he was, he would of had more than 3pts in his last 18 playoff games. Heck, we can't even rely on Markov for 82 games (plus playoffs) because we are worried about his age.

 

[MaxDummy]

We could not.

- We don't have anyone as good as Seguin and Benn
- We don't have a team that is as good as the Stars
- We have a city that has significant higher taxes vs Dallas
- Weather is warmer in Dallas.

I showed you 4 reason why. Where are yours? I guess you think if we gave him $7M+ for 5 years, he would of signed with us for sure right eh? Because of this, it's our GM's fault. I see no explanation other than this and it's yet another BS reason to blame our GM.

Your 2 first "reasons" are pure comedy. It's 100% on Bergevin.

The Last 2 are sketchy to say the least.. Radulov played in the KHL for years.. He even left Nashville for Russia.. I would think weather is not a good argument.

Same for taxes. Radulov has many ways to save on those 41 games a year he pays taxes here.

 

[MaxDummy]

Markov is not better offensively when you consider when we need his offense. If he was, he would of had more than 3pts in his last 18 playoff games. Heck, we can't even rely on Markov for 82 games (plus playoffs) because we are worried about his age.

We can't rely on Markov? We did for 10+ years...

 

[Habs Halifax]

1.) Who the ****'s fault is it that Stars > Habs? Nill has done more with Dallas in terms of player acquisition in less time than Bergevin. What argument do you think you're making here?

2.) I have been criticizing Bergevin for flat out refusing to sign Radulov to a 2 year contract for some time now. I don't know where you've been.



If you're going to tank ----> keep your elite prospects.

If you're going to go for it ----> it makes sense to trade them for more immediate help.

It's just that in this particular case Bergevin is trying to tank by trading a prospect who could immediately be better than the player he traded for. Worst of both worlds.



I challenge you to show me where I'm wrong. And no, saying ''open your eyes'' doesn't count, believe it or not.



How's your ''year by year'' evaluation of Bergevin going? Seen enough that you want to see more? lol.

1) Stars > Habs. We can argue about the reasons why they are better than us but they are. Therefore, Radulov choose the better players to play with. You can get upset all you want but this is what I read from what Radulov said.

2) If you have been criticizing Bergevin for not signing Radulov for two years for some time now, why did you stop? Why not continue with it? This is something I wanted too BTW.

3) Sergachev for Drouin. Drouin is only 22 and locked up on a very team friendly deal. We didn't trade Sergachev for age 25 or 30+

4) I don't support this "go for it now" because our window to win is closing fast. Even after we traded Subban for Weber. Weber is not age 35+

 

[Habs Halifax]

We can't rely on Markov? We did for 10+ years...

Past does not equal the future

 

[MaxDummy]

Past does not equal the future

He was a known commodity at least.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Your 2 first "reasons" are pure comedy. It's 100% on Bergevin.

The Last 2 are sketchy to say the least.. Radulov played in the KHL for years.. He even left Nashville for Russia.. I would think weather is not a good argument.

Same for taxes. Radulov has many ways to save on those 41 games a year he pays taxes here.

Not comedy. It's facts. Go read what Radulov said. Seguin and Benn are two pretty significant talents and all talents like Radulov want to play with talents like Seguin and Benn instead of Danault and Patch. How you see this as comedy is comedy in itself!

 

[Habs Halifax]

He was a known commodity at least.

3 pts in 18 playoff games dating back to when he was age 36 or 37? Sorry, it's been a while since Markov was a 50pts defenseman. I miss him but I don't miss him on a huge contract and where he can't play a 82 NHL game season with the risk of burning him out.

 

[MaxDummy]

Not comedy. It's facts. Go read what Radulov said. Seguin and Benn are two pretty significant talents and all talents like Radulov want to play with talents like Seguin and Benn instead of Danault and Patch. How you see this as comedy is comedy in itself!

What is comedy is that BERGEVIN is the GM of this team. He's the one who need to make it better. If Nill did a better job than Bergevin in 4 years to the point Where he can steal a player from us because they are "better" then you know all you need to know about MB job as habs GM

 

[MaxDummy]

3 pts in 18 playoff games dating back to when he was age 36 or 37? Sorry, it's been a while since Markov was a 50pts defenseman. I miss him but I don't miss him on a huge contract and where he can't play a 82 NHL game season with the risk of burning him out.

Markov was on a 47 points pace last year. Wich one of our D will have this pace or better this year?

 

[Habs Halifax]

What is comedy is that BERGEVIN is the GM of this team. He's the one who need to make it better. If Nill did a better job than Bergevin in 4 years to the point Where he can steal a player from us because they are "better" then you know all you need to know about MB job as habs GM

There are certainly GM's that have done a better job than Bergevin over the last 6 years. That I can't argue against. However, Bergevin was hand cuffed with the prospects we had back in 2012. We were not able to make moves like Sergachev for Drouin, RyJo for Jones, ect. I strongly feel our 2008-2011 prospect pool greatly affected our ability to improve and we are only now starting to recover from this bad 4 year stretch

 

[Habs Halifax]

Markov was on a 47 points pace last year. Wich one of our D will have this pace or better this year?

Markov had 1 assist in last years playoffs and he did not play a full 82 game schedule. I will admit Markov was solid defensibly but we needed some offense from him... the same kind of offense you are trying to present he has today

 

[Zam Boni]

Well, hold on. We are going to find out very soon what we are going to do this year.

Shouldn't we know by now?
Year six with the same GM, the plan should be pretty obvious to where this team is heading, don't you think?
Are we buying or selling? Going for the cup or going for a rebuild?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Shouldn't we know by now?
Year six with the same GM, the plan should be pretty obvious to where this team is heading, don't you think?
Are we buying or selling? Going for the cup or going for a rebuild?

6 years does not mean we should be a cup contender. We can easily be a top 10 team next year and we are still not a cup contender. So no, we should no know by now. Evaluating a GM based on no cup in 6 years is not smart IMO. With me, I have my eye on our prospect pool and the next draft where we will have 5 more top 100 picks and maybe if we are lucky, a lottery pick win.

Last time we picked 1st overall was in 1980. Here is a list of our top 10 picks since 1980
1980: Wickeneiser (1st)
1979: Hunter (7th)
1984: Svoboda (5th)
1995: Ryan (8th)
2001: Komisarek (7th)
2003: Kostitsyn (10th)
2005: Price (5th)
2012: Galchenyuk (3rd)
2016: Sergachev (9th)

9 top 10 picks in 38 years of drafting (our average 1st round pick was 17 I believe). This team is not going anywhere until we acquire more top 10 picks in a smaller span of years.

 

[Burke the Legend]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Keep Chucky on the wing and preferably the third or fourth line.

Keep pushing Drouin at center.

Habs' have a natural wing playing center and a natural center playing wing. Maybe that redefines insanity. IDK

You do know that most future NHL youth talent forwards played center, right? Their youth/junior coaches would want their best player ranging all over the ice. When they reach the pro level at that point they get converted based on org needs.

Tampa has Stammer/Johnson/Point down the middle and made a decision that Drouin would go to the wing and play with them. That doesn't mean Drouin can't play C at a pro level. Because of Tampa's decision this is the first extended shot the 22 year old has at the pro level, there is nothing wrong with the Habs seeing if he can adapt to it. Well worth giving him a solid year and seeing what progress is like.

Galchenyuk also played C as a teenager and the Club had an obvious need to talent at C so he was kept there hoping he could be that all-star pivot they needed. 5 years later it's still not very obvious he has the toolbox to thrive at center. In junior a NHL level talent can dominate on speed/skills giving him much more margin for error but at the NHL level the talent level is much higher and so is the speed. Alex's decision making capabilities at this level are mediocre at best so a simplified role at wing is looking more and more like a better place for him to focus his talents (his ++ stickhandling and shot).