Claude Julien, Marc Bergevin incredibly Pigheaded

[Tourist]

HE IS, stop looking for excuses.

you may think he should be all you want, but HE IS NOT.

Sure, for the exact reason I mentionned in another post, you have a preconceived notion of what a winger should look like and what a C should look like. NONE of the C the Habs have have a good hockey IQ based on your definistion.

I don't care about excuses so I'm not looking for them. When you consider context I don't believe he's more effective at center vs wing. When was confident and healthy centering Pacioretty and Radulov in a heavily sheltered context he had excellent numbers. That is true. Now he's confident and healthy too playing wing opposite to DLR and Lehkonen in less shletered minutes and he's scoring at a very good pace. It's not a big leap to imagine that in his current form, if he played wing next to players of Pacioretty and Radulov's caliber instead of a fourth liner according to you and a player who has 21 points this year his point totals would be even more impressive, especially if his minutes would go back to being heavily sheltered.

Danault and DLR have a better combination of hockey sense/skating than Galchenyuk IMO. However they are not good options either for the top center role because they're clearly not productive enough.

Wingers and centers come in different shapes and styles. I'm just a fan who watches hockey and who noticed that the teams that tend to do well are strong at center, most often thanks to at least one top center that is both productive and has good combination of skating/hockey IQ. It's easy to understand why those qualities are very useful for the top center role. The Habs are my prefered team. They have no one that fits this profile currently and I think they'd have a far better chance at winning in the playoffs if they got such a player. If new management came in and said they're committing to going forward with Galchenyuk as the team's top center, maybe you'd be content but I would not. I think he's a mediocre solution for that role.

 

[Price is Wright]

I don't care about excuses so I'm not looking for them. When you consider context I don't believe he's more effective at center vs wing. When was confident and healthy centering Pacioretty and Radulov in a heavily sheltered context he had excellent numbers. That is true. Now he's confident and healthy too playing wing opposite to DLR and Lehkonen in less shletered minutes and he's scoring at a very good pace. It's not a big leap to imagine that in his current form, if he played wing next to players of Pacioretty and Radulov's caliber instead of a fourth liner according to you and a player who has 21 points this year his point totals would be even more impressive, especially if his minutes would go back to being heavily sheltered.

Danault and DLR have a better combination of hockey sense/skating than Galchenyuk IMO. However they are not good options either for the top center role because they're clearly not productive enough.

Wingers and centers come in different shapes and styles. I'm just a fan who watches hockey and who noticed that the teams that tend to do well are strong at center, most often thanks to at least one top center that is both productive and has good combination of skating/hockey IQ. It's easy to understand why those qualities are very useful for the top center role. The Habs are my prefered team. They have no one that fits this profile currently and I think they'd have a far better chance at winning in the playoffs if they got such a player. If new management came in and said they're committing to going forward with Galchenyuk as the team's top center, maybe you'd be content but I would not. I think he's a mediocre solution for that role.

That's a whole lot of words to say, "I support management's decision to derail Galchenyuk's development down the middle."

 

[Tourist]

The same "he doesn't have the IQ to be a centre" crap was said about Tyler Seguin.

For Bruins and Tyler Seguin, three is enough - The Boston Globe

May this posted is directed at me? If it is, I said I value mostly production and a good combination of skating/hockey IQ for the top center role, not just hockey IQ. Galchenyuk is productive, but has a poor combination of skating/hockey sense. Seguin's no better than Galchenyuk in terms of hockey sense, but he's a far superior skater. I'd say he's even one of the best skaters in the league. For that alone I think he's a much better option than Galchenyuk for the top center role.

Seguin would be incredible if he had better hockey sense. I'd like to see more of him in the playoffs. Unfortunately he can't seem to even get there.

 

[Tourist]

That's a whole lot of words to say, "I support management's decision to derail Galchenyuk's development down the middle."

I've believed for awhile that Galchenyuk is better suited at wing on a championship caliber team.

Management has completely failed for 6 years at providing the coaches with a legit option for the top center role, so no I don't support management.

 

[groovejuice]

Is Bergevin narcissistic enough to keep Galch this summer just to avoid losing face in case he blossoms as a C elsewhere?

I don't think so. But he is narcissistic enough to believe his evaluation of Galchenyuk is of the very highest order of infallibility, so it is impossible for him EVER to be a successful centre anywhere.

 

[BLONG7]

Bergevin is a complete dumb ass...how can Molson still trust this complete fool.

This............is the biggest question...the answer is in the language debate...and the fact he gave him another extension 2 years before he earned it...
There are alot of egos at play here...alot.

 

[Laurentide]

He isn't wrong, you know. 82 games IS way too long

He isn't. The season is way too long and so is the pre-season. That's another discussion for another thread. The thing that Julien's excuse doesn't account for is the fact that it's not just the Habs who have to play 82 games plus way too many pre-season games. Every team in the league, from the Preds to the Sabres has to do the exact same thing and west coast teams log nearly twice as many travel miles as some eastern teams who barely need to leave their own time zone.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't care about excuses so I'm not looking for them. When you consider context I don't believe he's more effective at center vs wing. When was confident and healthy centering Pacioretty and Radulov in a heavily sheltered context he had excellent numbers. That is true. Now he's confident and healthy too playing wing opposite to DLR and Lehkonen in less shletered minutes and he's scoring at a very good pace. It's not a big leap to imagine that in his current form, if he played wing next to players of Pacioretty and Radulov's caliber instead of a fourth liner according to you and a player who has 21 points this year his point totals would be even more impressive, especially if his minutes would go back to being heavily sheltered.

Danault and DLR have a better combination of hockey sense/skating than Galchenyuk IMO. However they are not good options either for the top center role because they're clearly not productive enough.

Wingers and centers come in different shapes and styles. I'm just a fan who watches hockey and who noticed that the teams that tend to do well are strong at center, most often thanks to at least one top center that is both productive and has good combination of skating/hockey IQ. It's easy to understand why those qualities are very useful for the top center role. The Habs are my prefered team. They have no one that fits this profile currently and I think they'd have a far better chance at winning in the playoffs if they got such a player. If new management came in and said they're committing to going forward with Galchenyuk as the team's top center, maybe you'd be content but I would not. I think he's a mediocre solution for that role.

He never centered both Pacioretty and Radulov when he was "healthy and confident". He did when coming back from injury and they all struggled.

The line last year Byron-Galchenyuk-Radulov. Its best producer was Galchenyuk.

As far as your assessments go, if your definition of hockey sense has DLR over Galchenyuk, you need to redefine it.

 

[Price is Wright]

As far as your assessments go, if your definition of hockey sense has DLR over Galchenyuk, you need to redefine it.

From what I understood the poster thinks Galchenyuk is not adequate to be a top six centre on a championship team, therefore it's okay not to try developing him that way and so he could do either in a pinch (like most have done, heck Giroux is playing wing now but next year he could go back to centre) and it's better he stay at wing and not develop as a centre at a time when the club is playing Jacob de ka Rose as a top six centre.

 

[Andrei79]

From what I understood the poster thinks Galchenyuk is not adequate to be a top six centre on a championship team, therefore it's okay not to try developing him that way and so he could do either in a pinch (like most have done, heck Giroux is playing wing now but next year he could go back to centre) and it's better he stay at wing and not develop as a centre at a time when the club is playing Jacob de ka Rose as a top six centre.

In other words: he's got a bad case of Bergevitis. Thankfully, the prognosis is good unless your name rhymes with denial.

 

[Tourist]

He never centered both Pacioretty and Radulov when he was "healthy and confident". He did when coming back from injury and they all struggled.

The line last year Byron-Galchenyuk-Radulov. Its best producer was Galchenyuk.

As far as your assessments go, if your definition of hockey sense has DLR over Galchenyuk, you need to redefine it.

I thought he did center them and was responding to ECWHSWI's statement that he did. I stand corrected if he didn't. But that's beside the point I was trying to make. My point is pretty clear from my posts in this thread.

IMO DLR has a better combination of skating and hockey sense than Galchenyuk, yes. You can disagree and that's fine. I won't redefine my definition because you suggest I should but I appreciate the concern.

 

[Price is Wright]

IMO DLR has a better combination of skating and hockey sense than Galchenyuk, yes. You can disagree and that's fine. I won't redefine my definition because you suggest I should but I appreciate the concern.

Offensive instinct is a hockey sense. DLR has a minuscule amount.

 

[Tourist]

From what I understood the poster thinks Galchenyuk is not adequate to be a top six centre on a championship team, therefore it's okay not to try developing him that way and so he could do either in a pinch (like most have done, heck Giroux is playing wing now but next year he could go back to centre) and it's better he stay at wing and not develop as a centre at a time when the club is playing Jacob de ka Rose as a top six centre.

It's ok to try to develop him there, and he can certainly improve, but he has fundamental flaws that no amount of development can fix. You can't fix hockey IQ and bad skating at this level. He is was he is, a poor choice for a top center role, but a good choice for a top winger role.

 

[Tourist]

In other words: he's got a bad case of Bergevitis. Thankfully, the prognosis is good unless your name rhymes with denial.

Don't know why you would say this, I think Bergevin's done poorly and his biggest mistake is how he never provided his coaches with a legit top center option.

 

[Tourist]

Offensive instinct is a hockey sense. DLR has a minuscule amount.

DLR has very good instincts all over the ice. He has poor puck skills especially compared to the elite puck skills Galchenyuk has. DLR is also a bad choice for a top center role.

 

[nhlfan9191]

When I look at Galchenyuk's strenghts: shooting, puck handling and passing, I see nothing that makes me believe he can use these tools better at center than wing (or vice versa for that matter). Many east/west type wingers use these tools to create chances from anywhere once they cross the blue line. The last few games show this. If he can play like this over a full season he'll get excellent point totals.

As for stats, since two years ago when he fined tuned his shot (his greatest strength now), I bet there's not much difference when you somehow factor in health, quality of teammates, usage etc. For example, playing heavily sheltered minutes with Pacioretty and Radulov is not the same as playing less sheltered minutes with De La Rose and Lehkonen.

There is more to the game then point totals. Peak Desharnais had some excellent point streaks, yet we all know it was a bad idea to use him as a top 2 center, especially in the playoffs, due to his own massive flaws.

When I look at good teams around the league for the past few years, I don't see any that use a player with poor skating/hockey IQ as their top 2 center. The reason is simple. Centers need to cover more surface area and the surface area they cover is more critical. To cover adequately more surface area it's better if you're a good skater and/or if you are good at reading the play; the objective being to be in the right position. Galchenyuk scores poorly in those facets of the game, unfortunately. I wish he didn't because it would solve a big problem with the team but he is what he is.

Finally, yes, the Habs offense is not good as it is and clearly needs an upgrade.

You make some decent points and I agree, we do need upgrade at center regardless. But saying he was heavily sheltered with Pacioretty/Radulov or the season before when he finally made his way up to #1 C and started scoring is false. If you want to claim he was “sheltered”, which I don’t think he was. I think Therrien had a weird fixation with certain players which kept Galchenyuk from taking the next step for too long. Then sure he wasn’t getting the toughest matchups when we were developing him. But he showed he was ready the second half of 2015/16 and the first two months of 2016/2017 before they rushed him back from an injury. Even if we do need an upgrade, until we actually get one you play your best option there. And Drouin, Byron, De La Rose, and any other player whose been thrown in there for ridiculous reasons certainly aren’t better options then Galchenyuk and their production and performance is evidence.

Center is the most important position and Galchenyuk has shown the most potential out of any player on this team to be a top 6 center so there’s no excuse for what transpired this season, especially given how awful down the middle. Nobody can even use the 200 ft argument anymore because we rode Drouin every game whose absolutely putrid when it comes to this area.

 

[Tourist]

You make some decent points and I agree, we do need upgrade at center regardless. But saying he was heavily sheltered with Pacioretty/Radulov or the season before when he finally made his way up to #1 C and started scoring is false. If you want to claim he was “sheltered”, which I don’t think he was. I think Therrien had a weird fixation with certain players which kept Galchenyuk from taking the next step for too long. Then sure he wasn’t getting the toughest matchups when we were developing him. But he showed he was ready the second half of 2015/16 and the first two months of 2016/2017 before they rushed him back from an injury. Even if we do need an upgrade, until we actually get one you play your best option there. And Drouin, Byron, De La Rose, and any other player whose been thrown in there for ridiculous reasons certainly aren’t better options then Galchenyuk and their production and performance is evidence.

Center is the most important position and Galchenyuk has shown the most potential out of any player on this team to be a top 6 center so there’s no excuse for what transpired this season, especially given how awful down the middle. Nobody can even use the 200 ft argument anymore because we rode Drouin every game whose absolutely putrid when it comes to this area.

Regarding sheltering I'm going off memory and usage charts provided by users back then. Maybe he wasn't as sheltered as I remember it. I'd have to revisit the numbers but like you say I believe when Galchenyuk was getting his best numbers at center Therrien for whatever reason still kept him away from the tougher matchup. In any case, I think if Galchenyuk plays the way he has lately next year, he can get excellent numbers on the wing over a full season, especially next to superior players than this year's version of DLR and Lehkonen.

I'm not saying that Galchenyuk isn't the best center we have available. I'm saying I see him as a winger on a competitive team and we should stop bouncing him around between the 2 positions, since wing is where he should be the day he plays for a competitive team. He's a guy who shows signs of struggling with confidence, why not make things simpler for him?

So who should we play in the top center role then? Well it is the GM's job to find someone better than the poor choices we have now. He has clearly failed to do so so far.

 

[justafan22]

What happened to no excuses?

 

[nhlfan9191]

Regarding sheltering I'm going off memory and usage charts provided by users back then. Maybe he wasn't as sheltered as I remember it. I'd have to revisit the numbers but like you say I believe when Galchenyuk was getting his best numbers at center Therrien for whatever reason still kept him away from the tougher matchup. In any case, I think if Galchenyuk plays the way he has lately next year, he can get excellent numbers on the wing over a full season, especially next to superior players than this year's version of DLR and Lehkonen.

I'm not saying that Galchenyuk isn't the best center we have available. I'm saying I see him as a winger on a competitive team and we should stop bouncing him around between the 2 positions, since wing is where he should be the day he plays for a competitive team. He's a guy who shows signs of struggling with confidence, why not make things simpler for him?

So who should we play in the top center role then? Well it is the GM's job to find someone better than the poor choices we have now. He has clearly failed to do so so far.

Therrien said in the end of season press conference in 2016 when a reporter put him on the spot for what his reasoning was for waiting so long to put Galchenyuk in the number 1c role was because he was sheltering him and that he didn’t want to match him up against others teams top shutdown pairs unless he had too. He then immediately followed hat up by saying he felt he was ready which is why he made the transition. You’re not sheltered when your playing on a line with your teams best offensive players as that’s the line other teams are going to be focusing on.

 

[Andrei79]

Don't know why you would say this, I think Bergevin's done poorly and his biggest mistake is how he never provided his coaches with a legit top center option.

I thought he did center them and was responding to ECWHSWI's statement that he did. I stand corrected if he didn't. But that's beside the point I was trying to make. My point is pretty clear from my posts in this thread.

IMO DLR has a better combination of skating and hockey sense than Galchenyuk, yes. You can disagree and that's fine. I won't redefine my definition because you suggest I should but I appreciate the concern.

Because you'd be hard pressed to find any definition that doesn't limit itself to defensive positioning and awareness where Galchy doesn't come out ahead. It's why DLR's career point total has just recently passed, after 118 games, Galchenyuks assist totals from his 48 game rookie season.

As far as skating goes, I have to agree. DLR has thay straight away speed and balance that tends to succeed at at least staying in the NHL.

If you want offense though, and any sort of stickhandling ability, you need great two feet skating ability and edge work, that's about the only part Galchy's skating is excellent. On a team like ours, that's where I put more value.

My other post was just a jest btw, because only Bergevin legitimately believes keeping Galchy at wing with our circumstances makes any sense.

 

[Tourist]

Because you'd be hard pressed to find any definition that doesn't limit itself to defensive positioning and awareness where Galchy doesn't come out ahead. It's why DLR's career point total has just recently passed, after 118 games, Galchenyuks assist totals from his 48 game rookie season.

As far as skating goes, I have to agree. DLR has thay straight away speed and balance that tends to succeed at at least staying in the NHL.

If you want offense though, and any sort of stickhandling ability, you need great two feet skating ability and edge work, that's about the only part Galchy's skating is excellent. On a team like ours, that's where I put more value.

My other post was just a jest btw, because only Bergevin legitimately believes keeping Galchy at wing with our circumstances makes any sense.

Fair points. Again, I agree that Galchenyuk is vastly superior to DLR when it comes to offense. I mean that's super obvious. I love Galchenyuk's skillset, including his edgework which you nicely brought up.

The reason I value skating/hockey IQ on top of production for a top center is for efficiency without the puck, especially when the other team has the puck. Centers by definition cover a larger surface area, and a more critical one. The best qualities to have to efficiently cover a larger surface to me are skating/hockey IQ. I could be wrong but that's what I think. And play without the puck is important as players spend the majority of the time without the puck. Unfortunately, from where I sit, Galchenyuk scores poorly in these facets of the game. As such I think he's a poor choice for the top center role.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I don't care about excuses so I'm not looking for them. When you consider context I don't believe he's more effective at center vs wing. When was confident and healthy centering Pacioretty and Radulov in a heavily sheltered context he had excellent numbers. That is true. Now he's confident and healthy too playing wing opposite to DLR and Lehkonen in less shletered minutes and he's scoring at a very good pace. It's not a big leap to imagine that in his current form, if he played wing next to players of Pacioretty and Radulov's caliber instead of a fourth liner according to you and a player who has 21 points this year his point totals would be even more impressive, especially if his minutes would go back to being heavily sheltered.

Danault and DLR have a better combination of hockey sense/skating than Galchenyuk IMO. However they are not good options either for the top center role because they're clearly not productive enough.

Wingers and centers come in different shapes and styles. I'm just a fan who watches hockey and who noticed that the teams that tend to do well are strong at center, most often thanks to at least one top center that is both productive and has good combination of skating/hockey IQ. It's easy to understand why those qualities are very useful for the top center role. The Habs are my prefered team. They have no one that fits this profile currently and I think they'd have a far better chance at winning in the playoffs if they got such a player. If new management came in and said they're committing to going forward with Galchenyuk as the team's top center, maybe you'd be content but I would not. I think he's a mediocre solution for that role.

DLR does NOT, all he has for him for now is decent defense.

I know you would not, he's not good enough defensively and that's what matters in Habsland...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Fair points. Again, I agree that Galchenyuk is vastly superior to DLR when it comes to offense. I mean that's super obvious. I love Galchenyuk's skillset, including his edgework which you nicely brought up.

The reason I value skating/hockey IQ on top of production for a top center is for efficiency without the puck, especially when the other team has the puck. Centers by definition cover a larger surface area, and a more critical one. The best qualities to have to efficiently cover a larger surface to me are skating/hockey IQ. I could be wrong but that's what I think. And play without the puck is important as players spend the majority of the time without the puck. Unfortunately, from where I sit, Galchenyuk scores poorly in these facets of the game. As such I think he's a poor choice for the top center role.

what you call IQ is actually called defensive play.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Habs100]

Is Larry Carriere the one giving the order to play 17 players at center this year before Galchenyuk, even though Chucky wants another opportunity at center?

Is he the one who decided to trade Subban and Sergachev? To trade 2 early 2nds for Andrew Shaw?

Was he the one negotiating with Radulov and Markov and decided to tell them their final offer was first come first served and they can take it or walk?

I'm sure firing Larry Carriere will make a huge difference. Not.