Classic Wrestling Discussion (as in non-current): Part II

[weastern bias]

Approaching the 99 Royal Rumble, and jeez, Rock and Vince have developed quite the penchant for dropping 'r' bombs in reference to Kane

The 90s were. . . different

 

[Kimi]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that shouldn't have happened from that era. In that year I think you have the Jarrett women hating gimmick, DX raping someone (but it's OK 'cos it wasn't Steph, it was someone who looks like her...). Bossman and Big Show's dead dad. Undertaker hanging Bossman after their cage match. I think Mark Henry won the Godfather's collection of Hos in a match or something too.

It was a very different time.

 

[bruins309]

In watching Starrcade 1995, they have the WCW vs New Japan thing going on, and they got Sonny Onoo coming out with every Japanese guy doing the stereotype gimmick. (which he would sue over later). One thing I liked about Bischoff is his commitment to exposing the US wrestling public to other styles, like you'd see in Japan, Mexico etc. But the treatment of the Japanese...you'd think it was Starrcade 1941 or something.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Forgot that I originally came here to post the card from Classic Wrestling Night yesterday:

- Rick Steiner vs Goldberg, Road Wild '99
- The Rock vs. Mankind: Empty Arena Match, WWF Halftime Heat
- Shane McMahon vs. Steve Blackman, Summerslam '06
- Bret Hart vs. Bob Backlund, Superstars 7/30/94
- Low Ki vs. Bryan Danielson vs. AJ Styles, ROH 2002
- Shane McMahon vs Kurt Angle: No Holds Barred, King of the Ring '01
- Ahmed Johnson vs. Vader, Shotgun Saturday Night 2/1/97
- Marty Jannetty vs Bastion Booger, Raw 8/16/93
- Shinya Hashimoto vs Tatsumi Fujinami, NJPW Do Judge, 10/9/00
- Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi, ROH 10/1/05
- Mick Foley vs. Ric Flair: I Quit Match, Summerslam '06
- Arn Anderson vs. Bobby Eaton, Superbrawl
- Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton vs. The Steiner Brothers, Superbrawl II
- Jerry Lawler vs. Terry Funk: No DQ, Memphis 3/23/81
- Jerry Lawler vs. Ric Flair, Memphis 8/14/82
- Junkyard Dog and Mr. Olympia vs. Matt Borne and Ted DiBiase: Losers Leaves Town, Mid-South 10/27/82
- Atsushi Onita vs. Hayabusa: Exploding Barbed Wire Cage Death Match, FMW 6th Anniversary (5/5/95)

 

[Loosie]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that shouldn't have happened from that era. In that year I think you have the Jarrett women hating gimmick, DX raping someone (but it's OK 'cos it wasn't Steph, it was someone who looks like her...). Bossman and Big Show's dead dad. Undertaker hanging Bossman after their cage match. I think Mark Henry won the Godfather's collection of Hos in a match or something too.

It was a very different time.

It was a very different culture then too, calling someone a 'r' was less 'frowned' upon I guess you can say?

I'm not sure of the DX bit you are talking about though, I'd have to go back and watch (or go forward an watch? I'm currently in 96). But the Big Show/Bossman stuff was hilarious, complete with a Blues Brother styles car with loud speaker.

 

[Sacha Baron Corbin]

Big Show/Bossman was pretty ****ed up looking back at it now but man that was a hilarious segment

 

[Emperoreddy]

Approaching the 99 Royal Rumble, and jeez, Rock and Vince have developed quite the penchant for dropping 'r' bombs in reference to Kane

The 90s were. . . different

Zero qualms about hitting women too.

Lita was taking bumps from the men day one. Trish too. Steph got stunned and rock bottomed to my recollection.

That is a sticky as hell topic.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Zero qualms about hitting women too.

Lita was taking bumps from the men day one. Trish too. Steph got stunned and rock bottomed to my recollection.

That is a sticky as hell topic.

It was a different time. I don't think the evolution from that was for the better either. Wrestling is not meant to be completely PC and completely devoid of contact between a man and a woman. However, the few times that they have had contact between men and women lately have been done pretty well. The one at 30 when DB cleared the Authority was probably the best you'll get in that regard.

Hitting women and the insults were still pretty tame compared to some of the gimmicks of those times. haha

 

[weastern bias]

Yeah, Chyna (like just about everybody at this point) is feuding with the Corporation, and she had to beat Gerald Briscoe and Pat Patterson in a handicap match to keep her #30 spot in the Rumble

The associates at one point blind her with baby powder and Patterson proceeds to. . . take some liberties

Chyna gets em both with the low blow, wins, and keeps her spot; it works in the story being told, but that would never fly today

Ric Flair can't even steal a kiss without a retcon

 

[Emperoreddy]

It was a different time. I don't think the evolution from that was for the better either. Wrestling is not meant to be completely PC and completely devoid of contact between a man and a woman. However, the few times that they have had contact between men and women lately have been done pretty well. The one at 30 when DB cleared the Authority was probably the best you'll get in that regard.

Hitting women and the insults were still pretty tame compared to some of the gimmicks of those times. haha

Ya it is a fine line. Sometimes you can get away with spearing someone like Lita (or putting her through a table), but you have to do it right.

Fine line between edgy and offensive.

 

[Loosie]

Zero qualms about hitting women too.

Lita was taking bumps from the men day one. Trish too. Steph got stunned and rock bottomed to my recollection.

That is a sticky as hell topic.

The thing with Lita is that she was willing to mix it up with men. So I have less of an issue with that, the only moment I have an real issue with involving male violence towards Lita was the segment with Austin and Triple H where they repeatedly hit her with a chair. I get that it was meant to show how despicable they were, but in all honesty it could have been done in a different way.

It's that fine line that it's a scripted story line showing men doing horrible horrible things to a women, but it's also live and 'real' and not an acted out TV show. It would be ok to show that on a TV show, and the character is a horrible despicable person that will get his comeuppance, but it's one thing that it's TV show in a studio to live action in front of an audience that portrays itself as 'real'.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

The Dudleys used to put women through tables.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The Dudleys used to put women through tables.

And Mae Young off the stage...man, that was some spot. lol

 

[bruins309]

Earlier this week I watched Starrcade 1996 and was incredibly puzzled by the strange finish to Piper-Hogan. They never said it was a title match, but it did seem implied.

But I figured out something about myself as a fan: I am a huge mark for anyone who brings 3+ belts to the ring. I recall Dan Severn doing it in 1998 and Ultimo Dragon did it on that show.

Speaking of guys who hold multiple belts, at least in certain internet memes, I wrote about coming to grips with my former hatred of Triple H and turning the corner just from admiration of his political abilities.

 

[weastern bias]

Rumble 99

X-Pac defending the European title against Gangrel

King: "Gangrel better be careful of the feet of X-Pac, those heel kicks make up about 90% of his offense"

Yup

 

[Engebretson]

Earlier this week I watched Starrcade 1996 and was incredibly puzzled by the strange finish to Piper-Hogan. They never said it was a title match, but it did seem implied.

The match being non-title was indeed ridiculous, but my favorite part of their '96 feud was their promo after Halloween Havoc that year when Hogan and Piper were talking about how big of movie stars they both were

 

[Emperoreddy]

And Mae Young off the stage...man, that was some spot. lol

Those old ladies took some ****ing spots in the Attitude era...and we worry about Taker or Sting

 

[bruins309]

Network recommendation: Go to the "best of Stone Cold vs McMahon" and watch the 05/31/1998 Over the Edge match between Austin and Dude Love. Probably my favorite Austin match from his time as champion.

- The introductions are better than most matches. Finkel reads a long proclamation on the guest ring announcer Pat Patterson, with reference to the phony IC title tourney. Then a long hilarious intro by Pat to Gerald Brisco "the reincarnation of Jim Thorpe" and an ad for the body shop. And then Vince, of course. Patterson then refuses to introduce Austin because he's a bum.

- Crazy brawl, and a very hot crowd in Milwaukee. Yes, May 1998 was a great time but I am starting to wonder if Milwaukee is the most underrated wrestling city out there.

- Austin takes some crazy bumps for a guy who was already banged up, foot goes thru a windshield, landing on concrete, he bleeds too.

- Undertaker being there flowed perfectly into what his story would be in the coming months. Funny to see HIM intimidating Vince then when the story in 2016 is that Vince can make him do whatever he wants.

- UT chokeslam of Patterson thru the ENGLISH announce table is probably my favorite WWE table spot of all time. Pat went up for the freaking ride.

Oh yeah and I watched the random Sept. 1984 MSG house show on the Network. I wish they would put up the one where Heenan randomly made his surprise debut.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I remember that match. I watched it on the last Austin doc set they released a few years ago. Really fun brawl like most on that set and most of Austin's matches back then.

 

[Engebretson]

Re-watched the Sting/HHH match from last year's WrestleMania.

I know we were all pointing this out at the time, but MY GOD did WWE go out of their way to try to make the feud about WWE vs WCW rather than Sting trying to take down the Authority. Sting never mentions WCW once during the build and even went so far as to saying his beef with HHH had nothing to do with WCW. HHH and Stephanie are the only ones who mention WCW during the entire build and the three puppets behind the announce table decide that's the story they're going to tell with the build and the actual match.

First of all, the entrances seemed way over-thought. Ideally, this match should have happened at night or indoors to provide the proper lighting for Sting's entrance. It just felt very flat and I didn't really get much out of the percussion group that played him out. I'd love to ask HHH who's big idea it was to do the Terminator entrance. I know they were cross promoting the Terminator movie, but that was just laughably ridiculous, especially when the camera shows the stage guys in Terminator halloween masks walking up to HHH and handing him the Terminator heads just so he can pose with them for a few seconds. The three HHH cheerleaders on the announce crew make sure you know exactly which one of the guys in this match signs their paychecks. They had their annoying levels dialed up to 11 for this match.

As far as the actual match goes, it was slow but decent and I actually don't mind all of the interference because if you couldn't make this match a technical masterpiece, you might as well make it fun. The NWO coming out to help Sting was just all kinds of stupid though since Sting spent a huge chunk of his time in the late 90's fighting the original NWO. Had I booked this match, you have HHH give up in the Scorpion Deathlock because what the **** does he have to lose by doing so? He was "retired" at the time and certainly didn't need the win, but since WWE made it absolutely clear to the casual viewer that Sting was completely beneath HHH because he spent the majority of his career outside WWF/E, Sting had to take the loss. Sting should have gotten the win here and then you do the handshake the exact same way as it happened and the whole thing actually makes sense.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The build for that match was utter garbage. One week Sting is wrestling for WCW. Next week he is saying it isn't about WCW and just taking down the authority.

And the match turned into WWE vs WCW (but with no regard for WCW continuity since the original NWO were heels against Sting).

I thought they booked it like this partly because Sting couldn't go anymore (he was not looking good in TNA), but Sting did look pretty good against Seth until he got hurt so IDK.

 

[Loosie]

Network recommendation: Go to the "best of Stone Cold vs McMahon" and watch the 05/31/1998 Over the Edge match between Austin and Dude Love. Probably my favorite Austin match from his time as champion.

- The introductions are better than most matches. Finkel reads a long proclamation on the guest ring announcer Pat Patterson, with reference to the phony IC title tourney. Then a long hilarious intro by Pat to Gerald Brisco "the reincarnation of Jim Thorpe" and an ad for the body shop. And then Vince, of course. Patterson then refuses to introduce Austin because he's a bum.

- Crazy brawl, and a very hot crowd in Milwaukee. Yes, May 1998 was a great time but I am starting to wonder if Milwaukee is the most underrated wrestling city out there.

- Austin takes some crazy bumps for a guy who was already banged up, foot goes thru a windshield, landing on concrete, he bleeds too.

- Undertaker being there flowed perfectly into what his story would be in the coming months. Funny to see HIM intimidating Vince then when the story in 2016 is that Vince can make him do whatever he wants.

- UT chokeslam of Patterson thru the ENGLISH announce table is probably my favorite WWE table spot of all time. Pat went up for the freaking ride.

Oh yeah and I watched the random Sept. 1984 MSG house show on the Network. I wish they would put up the one where Heenan randomly made his surprise debut.

The only problem I had with 1998 main event matches is they were so formulaic. SO watching one is ok, but when you go through the year you saw the same thing in every main event. They'd start in the ring, brawl through the crowd, get to the entrance way, and eventually make it back to the ring for the finish. Oh and someone almost always went though an announce table.

 

[bruins309]

The only problem I had with 1998 main event matches is they were so formulaic. SO watching one is ok, but when you go through the year you saw the same thing in every main event. They'd start in the ring, brawl through the crowd, get to the entrance way, and eventually make it back to the ring for the finish. Oh and someone almost always went though an announce table.

I agree with that to a point, though this was the first and best of that type of main event. I think they saw how great this was and tried to recapture that magic and never could for various reasons.

Austin was never truly "right" after this point. King of the Ring he had that massive staph infection, at Summerslam he got legit knocked out for a bit in the match and by year end they keep the title off him. That's without mentioning the neck woes.

But man, that Patterson chokeslam...guy had been retired 17 years by that point and still he took the best table bump.

 

[Loosie]

Oh dear lord, I'm in to late 1996 which means "Diesel" and "Razor Ramon" are making thier return.

It's funny because JR kept saying Razor and Diesel are coming back, and Monsoon said that "Kevin Nash and Scott Hall are not coming and are signed with a different ompany"

Both were correct

 

[Emperoreddy]

Oh dear lord, I'm in to late 1996 which means "Diesel" and "Razor Ramon" are making thier return.

It's funny because JR kept saying Razor and Diesel are coming back, and Monsoon said that "Kevin Nash and Scott Hall are not coming and are signed with a different ompany"

Both were correct

God did I not get that as a kid. Obviously fake, and heel JR (well heelish) was weird. In hindisght I get it was part of the wars but I barely knew about WCW in 96.