Chistov - to the minors!

[Siberian]

the reason Datsyuk progressed was because of larionov's and fedorov's guidance, nothing to do with his age....

Well, if you really think this is the real reason why Datsyuk is having a breakout year then you know nothing about Datsyuk's development in Russia.

Just recently I read Datsyuk's interview where he said that only later in his career he started to learn all his moves from partners in Russian league. These fantastic puckhandling is what makes Datsyuk so great, how could he learn that from Fedorov and Larionov if neither one can do the same moves Datsyuk does?

The thing is Datsyuk was not rushed to NHL. He peaked in Ak Bars and was already a better passer than Larionov ever was. There was nothing he could learn from him except English language...

The famous move on Turco Datsyuk learned from a player in Russia with last name Guliavtsev.

 

[The Vengabus]

Heres a thought, take it as you will. I was talking to my dad, he grew up in the USSR, and is a major hockey fan, about a similiar subject.


Russia has always produced skilled players, its something they have for many years, but especially now. Many Russian players have all the tools in the world, and do nothing with it. Why? They never had to deal with the Red Army. Before the collapse the Russian league basicly consisted of CSKA versus everyone else. CSKA was the army's team. It was stacked. Anytime a good young player came on the scene, he was forced in to the army, and CSKA. The army, was not a pleasant place I understand, so for many players it was to their major incentive to play the best they could, so that they could play for the hockey team, rather than be stationed in Kazakhstan. Headcases were solved, and players learned responsible hockey. Almost all of the Russian stars of past and present played for CSKA, guys like Sergei Fedorov, Larionov, all of the historical legends.

Nowadays, there is a fairly competitive league, and always the opportunity of big bucks in the NHL. Players arent molded into stars, in to mature men, like they were back then. Sure there are exceptions, but for every Kovalchuk, theres a Fedor Federov.

 

[Buffaloed]

I wonder if some og my opponents can tell me how many good (above average) Russian born players are in the NHL who had to go through North American minor league system.

I can only think of one - Nabokov.

Dmitri Kalinin is on the cusp of becoming an all star. Slava Kozlov and Val Bure have both been impact players at times in their careers. Maxim Afinogenov and Nik Antropov spent time in the minors. I'd consider both "above average".

You're trying to make a logical deduction that because so few good Russian players come up through the North American system, there's a flaw with the system. When a faulty premise is used in deductive reasoning, the conclusion is nonsensical. Few great European players are produced through the North American minors system, period, because so few come over until they're older. The Russian minors don't produce any great North American players, but one would be foolish to conclude it's a flawed system on that basis.

 

[Fighter]

So none of these groupies could even name a single good Russian born player who had to go through farm club system besides Nabokov.
What are the chances that Chistov will become an impact player then?????

Chistov was sent down just like Lupul.
Joffrey was sent down for a week or two and then recalled, to get back some confidence + a warning to give EVERY game the 100% on the ice.
With Chistov will be the same.

I think that these guys go early in the NHL because they need to understand how to play north american style, which is quite different from european hockey.
But you claim that they MUST be a Kharlamov-like player in Russia (a dominant player there, right?) and THEN go to the NHL. Of course this means that one russian out of one thousand would go to the NHL, at the age of 30.

Your statement is pathetic, I bet the next one you will argue about will be Ovechkin, then Malkin... and so on...

Go back to the cold war era dude.

 

[Siberian]

Dmitri Kalinin is on the cusp of becoming an all star. Slava Kozlov and Val Bure have both been impact players at times in their careers. Maxim Afinogenov and Nik Antropov spent time in the minors. I'd consider both "above average".

You're trying to make a logical deduction that because so few good Russian players come up through the North American system, there's a flaw with the system. When a faulty premise is used in deductive reasoning, the conclusion is nonsensical. Few great European players are produced through the North American minors system, period, because so few come over until they're older. The Russian minors don't produce any great North American players, but one would be foolish to conclude it's a flawed system on that basis.

Well, you bring very good examples!
Val Bure! - His father who is a trainer of New Jersey Devils about one moth ago says that his biggest mistake was bringing Val this early. Viktor Tikhonov himself said that Val had more talent than Pavel.

Afinogenov - played 15 games for AHL Rochester Americans. Never got off radars of Buffalo's management because stayed hot coming from Russia. To say he developed in AHL is a lie.

Kozlov - came to Detroit, played 7 games without goals, was sent down to AHL to get ice time and adjustment to North America. Ok, can you say he developed in the Detroit Farm system? No, he had 59 points in 45 games. All he did there is learn language, again he already peaked in Russia at the time as he was putting similar numbers for Khimik two years in a row.

Nik Antropov? This is very hard to say if he is above average - the guy does seem to spend most of the time in NHL on IR.

Kalinin - has been improving with Buffalo, but also there was impact on him because he played with Russian National team


In AHL alone there is about 20 Russian born players who could have successfully develope in Russia and not rotten in the farm system of their NHL clubs.

 

[Buffaloed]

In AHL alone there is about 20 Russian born players who could have successfully develope in Russia and not rotten in the farm system of their NHL clubs.

If that's all, you just proved my point. There's not enough to draw a logical conclusion. How many Russian born players are there in Russia who haven't successfully developed? I suspect there's a lot more than 20.

 

[Siberian]

Chistov was sent down just like Lupul.
Joffrey was sent down for a week or two and then recalled, to get back some confidence + a warning to give EVERY game the 100% on the ice.
With Chistov will be the same.

I think that these guys go early in the NHL because they need to understand how to play north american style, which is quite different from european hockey.
But you claim that they MUST be a Kharlamov-like player in Russia (a dominant player there, right?) and THEN go to the NHL. Of course this means that one russian out of one thousand would go to the NHL, at the age of 30.

Your statement is pathetic, I bet the next one you will argue about will be Ovechkin, then Malkin... and so on...

Go back to the cold war era dude.

Look dude. I never said anything about Malkin and Ovechkin, do not make up stuff to support your argument or lack of thereof. Sending down Lupul and Chistov developing in Russia are two completely different things....

 

[HockeyMan9]

Look dude. I never said anything about Malkin and Ovechkin, do not make up stuff to support your argument or lack of thereof. Sending down Lupul and Chistov developing in Russia are two completely different things....

Actually they are not two different things, you're just making them that way. You mentioned that Chistov wasn't playing with any confidence, that is exactly why he was sent down, to play in a league where he can get more ice time, rake in a few points and rebuild his confidence.

 

[Siberian]

If that's all, you just proved my point. There's not enough to draw a logical conclusion. How many Russian born players are there in Russia who haven't successfully developed? I suspect there's a lot more than 20.

Again, you miss the point. These 20 are the elite Russian youth which was scouted and drafted by NHL teams and can not be compared to many less talented who stay in Russia itself...

 

[Randall Graves*]

Ok, so once again I was right about players as Chistov, Svitov and Zherdev of course.

This is a great example when a player comes to the league not ready and turns into bust. This guy is/was exceptionally talented but leaving Russia that early did not do anything good to him. I wish him very well but I smell a screwed up hockey career.

I just want to bring Datsyuk as an example, if he came to the league that early he would have never progressed to the point where he is right now....

After his season last year why would we just demote him before the season?He hasn't performed this season,I don't think his career is ruined because he's showed he can play in the NHL.

 

[Randall Graves*]

Last year he had 114 SOG and scored 12 or 10.5%
This year he has 61 SOG so far and scored one - 1.6%

What does the entire team have to do with the fact that he needs to get 60 shots on goal to score one goal?????

He's hit 12 posts atleast this season...minors seem to have done him well in his first game..1 goal and one assist.

 

[Dr_Chimera*]

I wonder if some og my opponents can tell me how many good (above average) Russian born players are in the NHL who had to go through North American minor league system.

I can only think of one - Nabokov.

I think you have a very worthy point about Russians in juniors and minor league systems in North America.
I however do not agree with your assessment of Russian teenagers in the NHL. I think they develop just fine.

 

[Buffaloed]

Again, you miss the point. These 20 are the elite Russian youth which was scouted and drafted by NHL teams and can not be compared to many less talented who stay in Russia itself...

What I was alluding to is that there must be a lot of talented Russian youngsters who stay in Russia and go bust. As a general rule, I prefer leaving prospect players in Europe until they're 20-22 years old, but there's always the exceptions. I think talent and character will win out no matter where a player is developed, but I see no need to rush these kids to the NHL, or any kids for that matter.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Again, you miss the point. These 20 are the elite Russian youth which was scouted and drafted by NHL teams and can not be compared to many less talented who stay in Russia itself...

What do you expect the players to do, In Suglobov's case he was on a powerhouse in Russia getting 4th line ice time. Tell me that is doing wonders for his confidence and development. He is now with Albany and was one of the early favorites for AHL rokie of the year untill injuring his wrist. If you won't to be the best you have o play with the best, most smart young Russians realize this and come to North America, where the best players on the earth are.

 

[puckgoalnet]

Again, you miss the point. These 20 are the elite Russian youth which was scouted and drafted by NHL teams and can not be compared to many less talented who stay in Russia itself...

Sib, that could be a very good point, with a little analysis behind it.

A good analysis to support or debunk your arguement would be to compare these 20 against non-russian picks near them in their draft years. Of course, you also have to factor in how long you say they need in Russia to develop (average of course).

Also, I would say that it's much too early to dog the players you do ... especially if you're looking at production. Players like Datsuk, Kozlov and Federov may have developed in Russia, but I wouldn't exactly say they lit up the league.

While there is a lot of research and expertise that goes into analyzing players, you have to remember that the drafting of 18 year kids is still a crap shoot. Being drafted in the 1st round, regardless of country, does not mean you're going to be an all-star.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Chistov isn't a bust because he came to NA to early, its becasue he is in a system in Anaheim that stresses on team defense which will lower his expected offensive numbers. Chistov isn't the biggest player in the world either, many including myself expected him to be a bust, I couldn't see him suriving in the NHL especially after a serious injury which his suffered in Russia.

How in the blue hell is Zherdev a bust, the guy is averaging .5 ppg, for a rookie that is above the pace Frolov had in his rookie season. Comming to NA sure didn't hurt Kovalchuk either. Name me some russians who you feel are a bust because of comming to the NHL at a young age.

 

[kyle]

Afinogenov - played 15 games for AHL Rochester Americans. Never got off radars of Buffalo's management because stayed hot coming from Russia. To say he developed in AHL is a lie.

Kozlov - came to Detroit, played 7 games without goals, was sent down to AHL to get ice time and adjustment to North America. Ok, can you say he developed in the Detroit Farm system?

So Chistov is completely different then from these guys? How many games has he been down for? More than 15? More than 7? Or just 1 so far. How do you know he won't be down for only 8 games, come back and be the team's hero?

The way it seems to me, Siberian: You are saying Russian hockey players are not as good as North American and other Euro prospects because, as they can jump into the NHL at a young age and make an impact (Staal, Pitkanen, Horton, Nash, Spezza), Russians cannot do that. That's a shame. Some North Americans should go over and teach the Russians how to play hockey.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Afinoganov didn't turn into the star he should have mainly IMO due to injuries. Many expected him to turn in a 30 goal season untill the concussion, that played a huge role in the side track of his development, I still think he can turn his career around and become a solid 2nd line scorer.

 

[Aaron Vickers]

Ever think Chistov might bust because he spent a year away from hockey in the army, Siberian?

Losing a year to development when you're 18-19 years of age can't help anything...

 

[Aaron Vickers]

In AHL alone there is about 20 Russian born players who could have successfully develope in Russia and not rotten in the farm system of their NHL clubs.

Would each and every one of those 20 Russian born players consider where they are, rotting?

Is there any chance that they possibly could be happier playing in the minors in North America?

 

[Siberian]

Ever think Chistov might bust because he spent a year away from hockey in the army, Siberian?

Losing a year to development when you're 18-19 years of age can't help anything...

Well, it seems that Chistov was a better player coming off the army than after spending a year in Anaheim.

 

[Siberian]

Would each and every one of those 20 Russian born players consider where they are, rotting?

Is there any chance that they possibly could be happier playing in the minors in North America?

I do not know. I know for a fact that many Russian players can not stand these minor leagues in North America.

Saprykin is a good example who left his club and was about to leave for Russia and only after that Flames management returned him to NHL team.

Zinoviev is another example who did not want to spent his time playing for a crappy farm club....

Some players do not have a choice because they sighed their contracts without full understanding of what they were getting into...

 

[Buffaloed]

Would each and every one of those 20 Russian born players consider where they are, rotting?

Is there any chance that they possibly could be happier playing in the minors in North America?

Artem Kryukov would sure be happier playing in the AHL.

 

[MephistoIV]

I do not know. I know for a fact that many Russian players can not stand these minor leagues in North America.

Saprykin is a good example who left his club and was about to leave for Russia and only after that Flames management returned him to NHL team.

Zinoviev is another example who did not want to spent his time playing for a crappy farm club....

Some players do not have a choice because they sighed their contracts without full understanding of what they were getting into...

Im sure they know every inch of what they are "getting into"

They wouldnt sign a contract if they didnt

 

[dats-13]

Well, if you really think this is the real reason why Datsyuk is having a breakout year then you know nothing about Datsyuk's development in Russia.

Just recently I read Datsyuk's interview where he said that only later in his career he started to learn all his moves from partners in Russian league. These fantastic puckhandling is what makes Datsyuk so great, how could he learn that from Fedorov and Larionov if neither one can do the same moves Datsyuk does?

The thing is Datsyuk was not rushed to NHL. He peaked in Ak Bars and was already a better passer than Larionov ever was. There was nothing he could learn from him except English language...

The famous move on Turco Datsyuk learned from a player in Russia with last name Guliavtsev.

Datsyuk injured his knee, and Ak took him in....
I don't think you understand how truly difficult it is to not speak a word of english, and come into this league....
Larionov gave him a place to stay, taught him the language, and showed him how to play the game on North American ice...sure, he might have learned his moves in Russia, but how can he put them to use if he's homeless and can't even understand basic words like hockey stick....
Datsyuk learned a hell of a lot more from Larionov than just the english language, you make it seem like Datsyuk was an all-star coming into this league when he in fact wasn't anything close...

Datsyuk is having a break out year due to increased ice time due to the values and skills Larionov taught him...he's not having a breakout year because he all of a sudden is doing fantastic moves...