Charles Elmore - Panthers' finances helped by lockout

[bcrt2000]

I'm pretty sure the Panthers make most of their hockey money up with their Arena revenues, but nonetheless, the fact that they'd make more money by not having a hockey team just means that something is dearly wrong

 

[jratelle19]

"If there's any silver lining in what happened in today's cancellation of the season, it's that much of the bleeding has started to stop," Panthers Chief Operating Officer Michael Yormark said Wednesday.

That's great news!! Now how about the league help stop the bleeding completely by buying you out and shutting the tents down?

 

[jb**]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/panthers/content/sports/epaper/2005/02/17/a1c_nhlmoney_0217.html

By not playing hockey, the Florida Panthers say they're on their way to their best season financially in five years.

The Panthers say they lost at least $17 million last season, but expect to cut their losses by 60 percent.

"If there's any silver lining in what happened in today's cancellation of the season, it's that much of the bleeding has started to stop," Panthers Chief Operating Officer Michael Yormark said Wednesday.

Then sell or fold your franchise. smart business people don't stay in business to lose money year after year do they? If they did lose that much than they have no hope of ever being profitable or breaking evern. A bunch of hogwash.

 

[jb**]

As opposed to the Flyers owner who comes on after going to game seven of the conference finals in a modern building and claims his team's been losing revenue.

That's why this lockout was caused.

They later said they didn't lose any money

 

[mr gib]

alan cohen just gives boat-loads of tickets away. he does this so the office depot center has the appearance of having a large paid attendance, thus fooling real customers into thinking that panther games are the in thing (and trying to get the same message across via the camera to viewers at home). plus, he is doing this to make fans feel secure and fooling them into believing that these large crowds of "paying" customers are proof that the team is healthy.

florida is losing money, even if they paid their players like juniors. hockey CAN work in south florida, but only where the team used to be located. the franchise's first owner, wayne huzienga (current owner of the nfl's dolphins) played the cats' first 5 years at the smaller miami arena (14,702 capacity). the nba's heat played in the same facility at the same time, under the ownership of mickey arison.

the panthers routinely sold out the miami arena, and if not came very close often. fans from broward county (sunrise, florida's location) will have you believe that they made up the majority of those in attendance at the miami arena those first five years. they will also have you believe that they hated the travel south-bound to dade county (home to the old miami arena). on the first account, there is no way of proving most miami arena-goers were these broward county "transplant northerners" and if they were responsible for packing the 14,702 facility, why can't they squeeze more than 3,000 into their cushy new joint in their own backyard? it may even prove that most broward fans made up a minority of the miami arena crowds back in the day. regarding the second account, broward fans hated coming down south, but they did and still would if they had to. at least there are activities in the downtown area, for before and after games (bayside, south beach 15 minutes away). in sunrise? sawgrass mall. a ****ing mall.

huzienga and arison could not stand each other. the only things they could agree on were that the miami arena was too small and outdated (true), and that the panthers and heat could not share housing. arison literally moved across the street to the american airlines arena, while the panthers moved 1 hour north to sunrise, fl next to a big mall.

if the panthers are still downtown, in an area that was fit to host the mtv video awards, where the heat already reside, where the marlins are trying to their new stadium to, where posh condos are being set up, in a prominent city that has world-wide recognition, they are healthier than they are today.

no, i do not want to hear that the miami arena and its capacity did no cut it. frankly, despite being a smaller facility, it drew a larger paid attendance than anything cohen embelishes today.

florida may be having their best year financially in years, but by their own admission it is only "stopping the bleeding." they are in bad shape, real bad shape.

that was interesting - thanks for the post -

 

[Mountain Dude]

Then sell or fold your franchise. smart business people don't stay in business to lose money year after year do they? If they did lose that much than they have no hope of ever being profitable or breaking evern. A bunch of hogwash.

Or maybe like a whole lot of other franchises they were waiting for the new CBA to see if they could make a go of it.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

You're exaggerating grossly on both accounts. They had buy one, get the second half off deals at a HANDFUL of home games -- and POSSIBLY buy one, get one free deal for the upper deck at a couple, but 3 or 4 for one deals?who are you kidding? I went to almost all the home games last year and I can assure you there was never such a deal.

I'd say on weeknights the actual attendance was about 11,000 to 13,000 -- and on weekends anywhere from 14,000 to 16,000. When the northern teams like the Rangers, Canadiens, Leafs etc. come into town, it's almost a guaranteed sellout and the place is packed. Yes, half the crowd is rooting against the Panthers but that doesn't count against their revenues.

I don't think the numbers are that far off at all.

A group of Bolts fans went down for a game against the Kitties late last season. We not only got our tix buy-one-get-one-free, we had over 30 people in our traveling caravan and had no problem getting 30 seats together. Having been through the lean years with the Bolts, I can promise you there was no way there were 14,000-16,000 people in that arena on a Saturday night against their cross-state rivals. There were times our group was louder than the home fans. (God bless 'em, they did yell "Lighting suck" as they drove past us after the game, so there was some spirit there!!)

I’m not in favor of contraction. I want the Panthers to hang around & be successful, but they are in trouble. I have a friend who is the sports editor of a Canadian newspaper and he told me that it was, indeed, the Panthers who contacted Winnipeg (?) about relocating the team last year. You don’t do that if you’re successful or anticipating success in the foreseeable future in your present locale. I do hope they make it – it’s a beautiful facility and I don’t think any fans deserve to lose their team if it’s any way avoidable.

 

[mr gib]

A group of Bolts fans went down for a game against the Kitties late last season. We not only got our tix buy-one-get-one-free, we had over 30 people in our traveling caravan and had no problem getting 30 seats together. Having been through the lean years with the Bolts, I can promise you there was no way there were 14,000-16,000 people in that arena on a Saturday night against their cross-state rivals. There were times our group was louder than the home fans. (God bless 'em, they did yell "Lighting suck" as they drove past us after the game, so there was some spirit there!!)

I’m not in favor of contraction. I want the Panthers to hang around & be successful, but they are in trouble. I have a friend who is the sports editor of a Canadian newspaper and he told me that it was, indeed, the Panthers who contacted Winnipeg (?) about relocating the team last year. You don’t do that if you’re successful or anticipating success in the foreseeable future in your present locale. I do hope they make it – it’s a beautiful facility and I don’t think any fans deserve to lose their team if it’s any way avoidable.

as the other poster said though - is the arena like the one in ottawa - 10 miles outta town?

 

[neelynugs]

I sent them an e-mail saying you were not fooled. Thank goodness for that.

as pete townshend once said "he won't get fooled again"

 

[Boltsfan2029]

as the other poster said though - is the arena like the one in ottawa - 10 miles outta town?

Well, it's 248.5 miles away for us...

I'd hardly say it was "outta town," but I don't live down there so I can't answer for whether the locals consider it as such. It's surrounded by very nice hotels, malls, residential areas which I’d consider “upper class.†As I said, it’s a gorgeous facility. But where it is doesn’t matter in the context of my post – I was responding to the claim that there are usually 14,000-16,000 fans in the building on the weekend. There simply weren’t that many the Saturday night we were there.

 

[jb**]

Or maybe like a whole lot of other franchises they were waiting for the new CBA to see if they could make a go of it.

If you are losing that much a new CBA will not make them profitable or get to the break even point. Hockey in the Sun Belt should not exist anyway IMO.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

Hockey in the Sun Belt should not exist anyway IMO.

Why not?

 

[GKJ]

As opposed to the Flyers owner who comes on after going to game seven of the conference finals in a modern building and claims his team's been losing revenue.

That's why this lockout was caused.

They later came on and said they're losing more money because of the lockout.


Everyone in Philadelphia knows the Flyers made money last season, or were real close to doing it.

 

[PantherBlood6*]

I'm not denying that the Panthers have problems -- they clearly do -- but I do believe this team can not only survive -- but be very successful under a new economic system. Miami is the epitome of a bandwagon town -- you could put a professional curling team down here and if they won -- people would show up.

That being said, the Panthers have been a doormat in the Eastern Conference for almost the past decade. Miami isnt the only town that doesn't support a loser -- Tampa too was in awful trouble before their on-ice product improved -- hell -- I think they averaged barely over 10,000 one year. The Bolts improved their on-ice product and their fan support grew with it. With the improved parity a new economic system would offer -- i have no doubt florida could rebuild fan interest here. The Marlins had no pulse not too long ago -- they too were threatened by contraction. A few winning seasons later -- they're the talk of the town.

 

[Other Dave]

This the same Florida Panthers of the NHL that has been sucking these past few seasons, right? Isn't losing money an appropriate consequence of bad management?

Does a terrible team have a God-given right to be profitable? How much money did the Panthers pocket during their 1996 Cup Finals run? If a team can make money when they win but lose money when they don't, why is that so wrong?

Would a league where teams have a financial incentive to ice a winning team now and then be likely to produce more interesting results than one where a team is guaranteed profits regardless of what they do?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This the same Florida Panthers of the NHL that has been sucking these past few seasons, right? Isn't losing money an appropriate consequence of bad management?

Does a terrible team have a God-given right to be profitable? How much money did the Panthers pocket during their 1996 Cup Finals run? If a team can make money when they win but lose money when they don't, why is that so wrong?

Would a league where teams have a financial incentive to ice a winning team now and then be likely to produce more interesting results than one where a team is guaranteed profits regardless of what they do?

No, teams should not be guarenteed profitability. But on the other hnd, it is the old chicken and egg thing. Unless in a hige market fans will drop off during rebuilding times. Unless the system is changed to avoid 'trades' where $$$ matter more than quality return of players it becomes a vicious cycle. The league can turn into perenial contenders and glorified farm teams.

 

[Other Dave]

Unless the system is changed to avoid 'trades' where $$$ matter more than quality return of players it becomes a vicious cycle.

This argument remains a non-starter. Championship teams under the old system were built, not bought, and the same tools were available to every team in the league.

 

[jb**]

Why not?

There is not a strong market for the product. Hockey is not popular as a whole in those asea's. Yeah you have some area's that are strong but as a whole not going to work. Look at attendence, while I believe a team somewhere in florida can be successful because of all the transplanted northeners it will stillbe a tough sell.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

There is not a strong market for the product. Hockey is not popular as a whole in those asea's. Yeah you have some area's that are strong but as a whole not going to work. Look at attendence, while I believe a team somewhere in florida can be successful because of all the transplanted northeners it will stillbe a tough sell.

OK, let's look at attendance - the Lightning were 12th in the league in attendance last year – ahead of Calgary and at least one other Canadian franchise. I haven’t been able to find average playoff attendance figures for this past year, but I have a suspicion we’re right up there. With our steady (albeit slow) improvement, our attendance has improved commensurate with the on-ice improvement each year, even when we were in the bottom of the standings. Game 7 of the finals had 53,000+ people at the arena (approx. 23,000 inside, over 30,000 outside – they recently showed the Canadian TV broadcast of the game here and they never showed the crowd outside, and that’s a shame. The only reason they had only 30,000 out there was because the plaza is built over a parking garage & they feared the garage would collapse due to the weight so they wouldn’t allow more people in. I made a point of checking it out from inside the building and it was a darned impressive sight). The Lightning, even though we were truly dismal for quite a while, is pretty much the model of the way they supposedly want the league to run to be successful – low payroll (downright “cheap†for some time and still below league average), trying to hang onto our core through proper management. I think that’s pretty successful and I don’t see why other southern markets can’t also be successful if they’re properly managed.

(Thank you for not saying “because it doesn’t snow there.†I’ve never understood that logic!

 

[jb**]

OK, let's look at attendance - the Lightning were 12th in the league in attendance last year – ahead of Calgary and at least one other Canadian franchise. I haven’t been able to find average playoff attendance figures for this past year, but I have a suspicion we’re right up there. With our steady (albeit slow) improvement, our attendance has improved commensurate with the on-ice improvement each year, even when we were in the bottom of the standings. Game 7 of the finals had 53,000+ people at the arena (approx. 23,000 inside, over 30,000 outside – they recently showed the Canadian TV broadcast of the game here and they never showed the crowd outside, and that’s a shame. The only reason they had only 30,000 out there was because the plaza is built over a parking garage & they feared the garage would collapse due to the weight so they wouldn’t allow more people in. I made a point of checking it out from inside the building and it was a darned impressive sight). The Lightning, even though we were truly dismal for quite a while, is pretty much the model of the way they supposedly want the league to run to be successful – low payroll (downright “cheap†for some time and still below league average), trying to hang onto our core through proper management. I think that’s pretty successful and I don’t see why other southern markets can’t also be successful if they’re properly managed.

(Thank you for not saying “because it doesn’t snow there.†I’ve never understood that logic!

I am just saying as a whole. What was your attendence like when the team was not so good? Not very well, if the team is going good the attendence will be there for everyone(except NJ who still to this day don't seel out their playoff games) you can't be good every year and only the strong markets will support a bad team. Look at the Flyer sin the early 90's terrible team still sold out for 5 years they didn;t make the playoffs.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I am just saying as a whole. What was your attendence like when the team was not so good? Not very well, if the team is going good the attendence will be there for everyone(except NJ who still to this day don't seel out their playoff games) you can't be good every year and only the strong markets will support a bad team. Look at the Flyer sin the early 90's terrible team still sold out for 5 years they didn;t make the playoffs.

Philly has over 6 million in population, more than two and a half times the populations of Tampa or Pittsburgh for instance. In fact, Philly is bigger than all but a small small handful of NHL markets, maybe 3 or 4. Unless you want to contract to 3 or 4 teams, Philly is a bad example to use. In fact, I have previously shown that in their best years, when judged by fan coming out to the game per population, Pittsburgh is many many time more fanatically about hockey than Philly is.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

That's great news!! Now how about the league help stop the bleeding completely by buying you out and shutting the tents down?

 

[jb**]

Philly has over 6 million in population, more than two and a half times the populations of Tampa or Pittsburgh for instance. In fact, Philly is bigger than all but a small small handful of NHL markets, maybe 3 or 4. Unless you want to contract to 3 or 4 teams, Philly is a bad example to use. In fact, I have previously shown that in their best years, when judged by fan coming out to the game per population, Pittsburgh is many many time more fanatically about hockey than Philly is.

that is a totally ridiculous statement. there is nothing to back that up except that they(Flyers) have sold out for 30+ years, have the Pens? don't give me that fan per population argument. Bottom line is Philly is a much more fanaticall about hockey than Pittsburgh will ever be. If you asked 10(unbiased) hockey people they will tell you the same.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

that is a totally ridiculous statement. there is nothing to back that up except that they(Flyers) have sold out for 30+ years, have the Pens? don't give me that fan per population argument. Bottom line is Philly is a much more fanaticall about hockey than Pittsburgh will ever be. If you asked 10(unbiased) hockey people they will tell you the same.

ridiculous, why? We turn out a far greater percentage of our population than Philly does. I have proven it with linked population and attendence for both areas in another thread debating this with John Flyers Fan. Pittsburgh is also among the top five television markets that fox has for their hockey broadcasts. Philly will survive based on population and size, not fanaticsm. If you disagree, prove me wrong.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

that is a totally ridiculous statement. there is nothing to back that up except that they(Flyers) have sold out for 30+ years, have the Pens? don't give me that fan per population argument. Bottom line is Philly is a much more fanaticall about hockey than Pittsburgh will ever be. If you asked 10(unbiased) hockey people they will tell you the same.

The Flyers and the Pens both have a right to be the NHL. Who cares who has the better fan base. At least you both have a strong fan base, unlike the teams that should get the heave ho