Carolina

[What the Faulk]

It's becomming quite clear in this thread on who is talking out of their *** and who is not. To say Raleigh is a failure is laughable. It may or may not turn out to be one, but for now, that is still up in the air. No fanbase will support a BORING LOSER. None. I guarantee you that even Toronto would struggle (albeit, not as much) if they sucked and were boring to watch.

People keep harping on the 1 (yes, thats one. O-N-E.) year of poor attendance. Granted, this year hasn't started off the best, but we're still early on. I keep pointing to the larger sample: 99-00 through 02-03 but apparently that doesn't get through.

 

[Squiddy*]

It's becomming quite clear in this thread on who is talking out of their *** and who is not. To say Raleigh is a failure is laughable. It may or may not turn out to be one, but for now, that is still up in the air. No fanbase will support a BORING LOSER. None. I guarantee you that even Toronto would struggle (albeit, not as much) if they sucked and were boring to watch.

People keep harping on the 1 (yes, thats one. O-N-E.) year of poor attendance. Granted, this year hasn't started off the best, but we're still early on. I keep pointing to the larger sample: 99-00 through 02-03 but apparently that doesn't get through.

My friend you couldn't be any more wrong. You must be a new Hockey fan otherwise you would remember the leafs of the 80s. Who's the one talking out of their *** now?

 

[What the Faulk]

Or, you know, I could be 19 and be 3 years old in 1989.

 

[Squiddy*]

Or, you know, I could be 19 and be 3 years old in 1989.

Or you could just research history before you start to garuntee things?

 

[What the Faulk]

Change it to Detroit, change it to Vancouver. My point still stands.

 

[Squiddy*]

Change it to Detroit, change it to Vancouver. My point still stands.

ok, so what the canes sucked for 2 years and they lost pretty much 70% fan support? If that doesn't shout relocation I don't know what does. Your local newspaper also trashes hockey so how good could the market be?

 

[What the Faulk]

I'm done with you. You've done nothing but spout stupidness and throw out opinion's and false facts. When you can support your arguments with more than a 1 year sample, let me know. Otherwise, it's all guesswork.

 

[Squiddy*]

I'm done with you. You've done nothing but spout stupidness and throw out opinion's and false facts. When you can support your arguments with more than a 1 year sample, let me know. Otherwise, it's all guesswork.

Didn't I just say we'll have to wait and see? You're the one comparing carolina's fans to leafs, Red wings, and vancouver fans. Really who are you kidding?

 

[OpAck]

I wouldn't be so certain about the Isles. They come or go not on their own merits, but on the vagaries of Nassau County real estate development. If Wang gets his lighthouse redevlopment deal which includes Coliseum renovations, or another arena deal surfaces soon, then the Isles will stay - otherwise they are gone in a few years - to Portland or Houston or Brooklyn (New arena being built for NJ Nets). Right now Nassau County is basically bankrupt (as well as corrupt) and it will be very difficult to get any public dollars.

The Isles won't be moving outside of the New York market, regardless of what the corrupt Nassau County politicians do. If Wang can't reach a compromise in Nassau County, he will then go to neighboring Suffolk County, Connecticut, or joining the Nets in Brooklyn. They will move anywhere within the market in order to take advantage of their very lucrative cable contract with Cablevision that runs through the year 2031. Their TV contract alone, has probably prevented the franchise from relocating.

As for Carolina, they won't be going anywhere...mainly because Karmanos has reiterated time and time again that he wants his franchise to grow and prosper in Raleigh. They were able to fill the arena when the team was competitive, but suffered a decrease in attendance when the team tanked over the course of two years. No shocker there. Next, was a year long lockout, which has led Karmanos and other small market teams to try to re-spark interest in their franchises. Carolina has only played three games at home in this new NHL...and some are already speculating that they won't survive, they have a poor product, poor management, etc, etc. Since when did we all become experts on forecasting the business of sports franchises?? I'm obviously not an expert on this, but there are years of rumors and speculation about the Canes, Isles, Panthers, Sabres, Devils, Penguins, Caps all relocating to other cities, and it never happens. In fact, speaking as just a hockey fan, I would venture to guess there is a tiny 5% chance any one of those franchises will move in the near future.

 

[Squiddy*]

The Isles won't be moving outside of the New York market, regardless of what the corrupt Nassau County politicians do. If Wang can't reach a compromise in Nassau County, he will then go to neighboring Suffolk County, Connecticut, or joining the Nets in Brooklyn. They will move anywhere within the market in order to take advantage of their very lucrative cable contract with Cablevision that runs through the year 2031. Their TV contract alone, has probably prevented the franchise from relocating.

As for Carolina, they won't be going anywhere...mainly because Karmanos has reiterated time and time again that he wants his franchise to grow and prosper in Raleigh. They were able to fill the arena when the team was competitive, but suffered a decrease in attendance when the team tanked over the course of two years. No shocker there. Next, was a year long lockout, which has led Karmanos and other small market teams to try to re-spark interest in their franchises. Carolina has only played three games at home in this new NHL...and some are already speculating that they won't survive, they have a poor product, poor management, etc, etc. Since when did we all become experts on forecasting the business of sports franchises?? I'm obviously not an expert on this, but there are years of rumors and speculation about the Canes, Isles, Panthers, Sabres, Devils, Penguins, Caps all relocating to other cities, and it never happens. In fact, speaking as just a hockey fan, I would venture to guess there is a tiny 5% chance any one of those franchises will move in the near future.

Don't trust Karmanos! When he purchased the whalers he said the same BS about bringing them a winning team, franchise stability and what not then he moved the team 3 or 4 years later out of greed.

 

[PoutinePourMoi]

It can and will work in the south but only in big markets. Small markets in the south are death. Look at Dallas they have done very well.

Thats why I stressed most.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Definitely charlotte would have been a better choice than raleigh, but the N&O totally trashes the canes and hockey all the time. They almost give whatever readers they have no hope and turn any potential fans off.

Hey Squid

Charlotte has hockey the Rangers ECHL entry team called the Checkers who feed into CTBruins87 favorite stompee the Hartford Wolf*Pack, (MSG/Rangers)

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

It's not just the Southern markets with large sections of empty seats. I'm watching the Thrashers-Isles game and the Nassau Coliseum has a lot of empty seats tonight. I'm seeing rows in the lower levels with either 2 people or are empty.

might that game be affected by the weather on LI,vespajet

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Don't trust Karmanos! When he purchased the whalers he said the same BS about bringing them a winning team, franchise stability and what not then he moved the team 3 or 4 years later out of greed.

It wasn't just Karmanos, there Squid....

How about your beloved Dallas Stars u seem to quote so often, do u remember that they weren't always in Dallas but in Minnesota as the North Stars before Norm Green, nicknamed "Greed" BY Minnesota fans for pulling that same stunt as u call Karmanos did to Hartford fans by moving them to Carolina (and btw, Greensboro, was the arena or territory the Canes called home) before Raleigh and RBC was built
and hence why the Moose landed in Minnesota before eventually landing in Manitoba when the Wild were created and the Rangers went from Binghamton to replace Karmanos' franchise in Hartford in 1997.

I wonder what would u be saying had Green picked Houston to move to instead of Dallas to place the Stars, and what would've been the Aeros history had that happened.

 

[mzon]

ok, so what the canes sucked for 2 years and they lost pretty much 70% fan support? If that doesn't shout relocation I don't know what does. Your local newspaper also trashes hockey so how good could the market be?

Boy, you might be Pejorative Slured. The Hurricanes have played 3 or 4 home games so far this year, and from that you get all of this brilliant analysis. We are talking about a last place team before the lockout and then a year with no hockey. I can't imagine why a Monday night game against a team with no regional fans (unlike Pitts, NY Rangers, or Detroit) has lousy attendance. Put a competitive team on the ice consistently and people will show up.

 

[jeffbear]

Not that facts will actually help this thread or anything ... but you guys have managed 3 pages without anyone even bringing up the Hurricanes arena deal ... which along with the new CBA and revenue sharing is their saving grace. Carolina has one of the four or five best arena deals in the NHL, as do the Lightning. The access to revenue streams other than ticket receipts makes all the difference and maximizes what fan support they do have in Raleigh. You can slag the market all you want, but even when the Canes have finished in the bottom two or three in ticket revenue, they have finished in the low 20s in overall revenue ... despite not getting the local TV revenues that keep teams like New Jersey and the Islanders afloat.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Oh my - I see large sections of empty seats in Pittsburgh. It must mean that the luster is already off #87 and even the people who snatched up all those tickets aren't coming.

Please. Enough of the pissing match based on tv observations.

NHL "fans" must be the biggest bunch of self-hating sports fan that exist.

The Canes are 3 home game into the post-lockout world and the franchise should start packing. That's just stupid -- even if the franchise does fail to prove itself viable in this market at some point - today's not the day.

I watched the game last night, and yeah, there were some empties in Pittsburgh. But nothing compared to Carolina.

It looked like attendance at an AHL game during a massive snowstorm.

If I was a Carolina fan, I'd be concerned. No self hate involved.

Just honest concern

 

[AdmiralPred]

You can't compare St louis' fan base to Carolina's ... There is no comparison.

You should be able to copmpare attendance for anyone you want. Some teams are benchmarks for others. Thing is attendance is pretty much your entire argument in these threads, so yes, you should be able to compare.

On the otherhand you need to stop passing judgment on cities and their markets from affar, especially basing your argument solely on attendance. At first I thought maybe you were just uninformed and needed some education on the matter from people who live and follow the markets your bent on taking teams from. Now I just think you are a bit bull-headed and not taking all of the variables into consideration, sorry for the bashing, but that's the way I've read it so far.

 

[canes-sth]

Not that facts will actually help this thread or anything ... but you guys have managed 3 pages without anyone even bringing up the Hurricanes arena deal ...

Uh - this was mentioned on the first page of this thread:

NCState was just getting ready to build their new basketball arena. Karmanos was able to step in at the right time, get a sweet lease and operations deal with the arena where Gale Force Holdings has control over just about everything. It's my understanding that it's one of the best lease deals in the NHL.

 

[jeffbear]

OK ... sorry, but I missed the only key point on three pages of drivel. Kind of a needle in a haystack.

 

[canes-sth]

I watched the game last night, and yeah, there were some empties in Pittsburgh. But nothing compared to Carolina.

It looked like attendance at an AHL game during a massive snowstorm.

If I was a Carolina fan, I'd be concerned. No self hate involved.

Just honest concern

My point was that you can't look at a TV and figure out anything. So compare the Pens game last night to the Habs game - looks pretty bad. Compare the Canes opening night to the places that didn't sell out (let alone sell SRO tickets).

I don't think you'll find a Canes fan that isn't concerned, but that's not what this thread is about - it's about slamming a new market that suffered thru its worst 2 years - followed by a lockout.

 

[Sp5618]

When and How is Judgment Reached?

I've been reading a lot of back and forth, with some posters putting up reasons teams should be moved/dissolved (e.g., attendance) while others have pointed out that despite the fact that few fans actually go to the games, a team can still make money depending on its arena deal and the newly instituted NHL welfare program. Also the role that corporate sponsors have seems to be important, although I can't quite tell who amongst the teams on the "watch" list of sharks like Squiddy seems to be okay in this department.

Can we turn the conversation towards the following. What does it take? How many years does it take to decide if the Preds or Canes (or any other team) is going to make? What role does attendance play? I think the never released CBA has some provisions about the welfare program too-- it does not go on forever if the attendance does not improve.

I guess I would love to hear what posters on both sides of this issue think IF they are forced to do an Emperor Nero on small market teams, or heck, even established ones.

Like I said, there has been a lot of talk about what factors you cannot use to judge success, but not as much in what you can or should use....

 

[Devonator]

Yeah I have to agree that can we at least quit this drivel about Winterpeg getting a team back......yeeeechhhh.....

If Carolina is going to move, put them in a place like Houston, Portland or Seattle...

We need to grow the sport in the States......not bloody Winnipeg....with all due respect to people from that exotic metropolis!! Ha ha.....

 

[Squiddy*]

It wasn't just Karmanos, there Squid....

How about your beloved Dallas Stars u seem to quote so often, do u remember that they weren't always in Dallas but in Minnesota as the North Stars before Norm Green, nicknamed "Greed" BY Minnesota fans for pulling that same stunt as u call Karmanos did to Hartford fans by moving them to Carolina (and btw, Greensboro, was the arena or territory the Canes called home) before Raleigh and RBC was built
and hence why the Moose landed in Minnesota before eventually landing in Manitoba when the Wild were created and the Rangers went from Binghamton to replace Karmanos' franchise in Hartford in 1997.

I would be happy. The North Stars had probably the worst location ever... Bloomington.
I wonder what would u be saying had Green picked Houston to move to instead of Dallas to place the Stars, and what would've been the Aeros history had that happened.

 

[StevenintheATL]

The isles aren't going anywhere and they also have some expensive tickets. Its not really a southern thing for me I think Atlanta will be fine. Just the preds and canes are the only two markets that come to mind because they are the smaller ones in the NHL that are not doing very well. In my opinion Atlanta shouldn't even get thrown into the relocation equation. That market is strong for sports and media if you have a competitive team.

I wasn't mentioning them as a possible relocation. I was pointing out to those folks who want to say the teams in the South don't have the fan support, that in the "big hockey markets", the support seems to be lacking as well.