Confirmed with Link: Carolina Hurricanes Sale - He Dundon it.

[tarheelhockey]

I blame government.

I pay my taxes and I want interesting internet arguments, dammit

 

[bleedgreen]

"Not getting hockey back?" I'm pretty sure they have hockey already courtesy of the Wolf Pack, the Sound Tigers, the Whale, the Huskies, the Bobcats, the Pioneers, and the Bulldogs. I'd argue that two Triple-A teams, a NWHL team, and men's and women's programs at four D-I schools constitutes having "hockey." This underlines one of my problems with some posters who treat hockey as an "NHL or nothing" proposition. It'd be akin to complaining that North Carolina "doesn't have baseball" - no we don't have MLB, but between two Triple-A teams, four Advanced-A teams, four Low-A team, a Rookie League team, 10 summer collegiate wooden bat league teams, and 18 D-1 teams, we have plenty of baseball to go around.

Oh my god...seriously?

I obviously meant "NHL" hockey and was referring to some of the posts in this thread directly talking about NHL returning to Hartford in some form.

I'm gonna assume you're not referring to me with the "some posters" thing.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Oh my god...seriously?

I obviously meant "NHL" hockey and was referring to some of the posts in this thread directly talking about NHL returning to Hartford in some form.

I'm gonna assume you're not referring to me with the "some posters" thing.

Then say "NHL Hockey" and remove all doubt. And no, I'm not referring to you with "some posters." It's meant generally - the people in Winnipeg who treated the AHL Moose as "less than" or the people in Quebec City who weren't happy with the occasional NHL preseason game and a (very successful) QMJHL team are who I have in mind first and foremost and, along with that, the Hartfordites for whom the Wolf Pack aren't good enough.

 

[bleedgreen]

Good. I was born and raised in Wethersfield playing hockey all my life. I've spent probably weeks of my life arguing about CT's hockey culture with idiots on these boards for over a decade. I'm literally the last person you need to talk to about hockey there.

Having said that, pulling the Whale out of the HCC and replacing them with the Rangers minor league team left me with a blind hatred for Bettman and that time so strong that to this day I can't give that team a penny of my money when I visit.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Good. I was born and raised in Wethersfield playing hockey all my life. I've spent probably weeks of my life arguing about CT's hockey culture with idiots on these boards for over a decade. I'm literally the last person you need to talk to about hockey there.

Having said that, pulling the Whale out of the HCC and replacing them with the Rangers minor league team left me with a blind hatred for Bettman and that time so strong that to this day I can't give that team a penny of my money when I visit.

And I've spent about the same amount of time arguing with idiots over the South's hockey culture and hockey history. But to no avail because in the minds of some (not you, bleedgreen) that history and that culture doesn't matter because "LOL the South," "You didn't grow up playing the game," and "It doesn't even snow there" (the 8-10" of snow I got a few weeks ago says otherwise, but whatevs).

I think the Wolf Pack being affiliated with the Rangers were a double edged sword. Yes, they're a historic rival, but if the Whalers had been replaced with, say, Vancouver's AHL team wouldn't you also have people complaining that the team meant nothing to them because they had no connection? If Hartford had been home to the Monarchs after they relocated from Greensboro rather than New Haven you'd have people complaining about that too. It's really a no-win situation when a city goes from being a major league town to a minor league one - what irks me, though, is when people complain bitterly about not having something when they have it, it's just not to their exact liking. "Bring the NHL back to Hartford" is a far different refrain from "Bring hockey back to Hartford" and with Raleigh likely being in a city that likely nobody would take up the latter refrain for had the Hurricanes moved elsewhere you can see why the latter refrain annoys me. Hartford still has hockey. Had Carolina moved? The only time PNC would likely see its ice plant turn on is when Disney on Ice is in town.

 

[AD Skinner]

I blame government.

The government totally sucks

 

[bleedgreen]

Yes I would've given the Canucks minor leaguers some support.

Think about it. I'm being told as my team flounders away at a trying to make a playoff spot that I'm really a Rangers or Bruins fan anyways, so I won't have any trouble spending my money there. Mind you theyre both basically two hours away when HCC is 15 minutes from my driveway but that's not really important to the discussion. The league was completely ok with one third of the state being the Rangers cable rights territory so they couldn't/didn't watch Whalers hockey in the first place. Think if one third of NC was actually the cable territory of another team? Then the league completely supports the team moving away and thinks it's fine to move - of all teams - the Rangers minor league team into the rink 15 minutes away and I'm gonna be cool with it? Like most folks in central CT at the time, I would've showed up on Bettmans door with pitchforks and torches if I knew where he lived. It wasn't just that we lost our team that we obsessively followed for my whole life, it was supported by a league that viewed me as a small extension of Rangers territory. Most people who lose a team get a nod of sympathy or some sense of "it's unfortunate it went this way.."

We got a f*** you. Here's the Rangers...didn't you want to be a Rangers fan anyways?

Ironically I liked the Rangers and hated the Bruins up to that point.

It's hard to explain to you guys, New England is a different kinda place for pro sports. You don't have natural geographic rivals for the Canes - much like here in CO. I could get to 5 or 6 NHL teams without too much difficulty from CT. Most people from CT have family or are themselves from NY or Mass. Or as sports fans wished they were there. I spent my whole life arguing Pats vs Giants, Celts vs Knicks, Sox vs Yankees. Everywhere. Every day. Every person around me. New England is insane about pro sports in a way that's hard to put into words, just like things in NC are NE'ers wouldn't get without experiencing. We're really friggin annoying.

Telling a Patriots fan he had to be a Giant's fan is a nonsensical statement. It's not on the table. For Whalers fans it was the same thing. Though some people in time came around. I left the state, I never had to really face it. When I go back now I still want nothing to do with it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It's hard to explain to you guys, New England is a different kinda place for pro sports. You don't have natural geographic rivals for the Canes - much like here in CO. I could get to 5 or 6 NHL teams without too much difficulty from CT. Most people from CT have family or are themselves from NY or Mass. Or as sports fans wished they were there. I spent my whole life arguing Pats vs Giants, Celts vs Knicks, Sox vs Yankees. Everywhere. Every day. Every person around me. New England is insane about pro sports in a way that's hard to put into words, just like things in NC are NE'ers wouldn't get without experiencing. We're really friggin annoying.

Yep, I lived in northern New England for a number of years. Hockey allegiances were split between the Habs and the Bruins where I lived. Take one of those teams away, and there was no way the fans of those teams would root for the other, or even an AHL version of the other. Sox vs. Yankees was even worse.

 

[bleedgreen]

To the devoted it's a religion.

 

[CandyCanes]

RIP thread about Dundon

 

[Svechhammer]

Yes I would've given the Canucks minor leaguers some support.

Think about it. I'm being told as my team flounders away at a trying to make a playoff spot that I'm really a Rangers or Bruins fan anyways, so I won't have any trouble spending my money there. Mind you theyre both basically two hours away when HCC is 15 minutes from my driveway but that's not really important to the discussion. The league was completely ok with one third of the state being the Rangers cable rights territory so they couldn't/didn't watch Whalers hockey in the first place. Think if one third of NC was actually the cable territory of another team? Then the league completely supports the team moving away and thinks it's fine to move - of all teams - the Rangers minor league team into the rink 15 minutes away and I'm gonna be cool with it? Like most folks in central CT at the time, I would've showed up on Bettmans door with pitchforks and torches if I knew where he lived. It wasn't just that we lost our team that we obsessively followed for my whole life, it was supported by a league that viewed me as a small extension of Rangers territory. Most people who lose a team get a nod of sympathy or some sense of "it's unfortunate it went this way.."

We got a **** you. Here's the Rangers...didn't you want to be a Rangers fan anyways?

Ironically I liked the Rangers and hated the Bruins up to that point.

It's hard to explain to you guys, New England is a different kinda place for pro sports. You don't have natural geographic rivals for the Canes - much like here in CO. I could get to 5 or 6 NHL teams without too much difficulty from CT. Most people from CT have family or are themselves from NY or Mass. Or as sports fans wished they were there. I spent my whole life arguing Pats vs Giants, Celts vs Knicks, Sox vs Yankees. Everywhere. Every day. Every person around me. New England is insane about pro sports in a way that's hard to put into words, just like things in NC are NE'ers wouldn't get without experiencing. We're really friggin annoying.

Telling a Patriots fan he had to be a Giant's fan is a nonsensical statement. It's not on the table. For Whalers fans it was the same thing. Though some people in time came around. I left the state, I never had to really face it. When I go back now I still want nothing to do with it.

What you're describing is nothing more than being a fan of an out-of-market franchise. Being two hours away from the team you cheer for is nothing. In Raleigh, we have to drive further than that to see our local NFL or NBA franchise play its home games. We have to travel over twice that distance to catch the closest home MLB game to our city. Being 2 hours away is nothing, all things considered.

You say you can get to 5 or 6 venues easily so that's a reason the fans can't adopt anyone else, and I say that's a crap argument. We can't get anywhere else easily from Raleigh, and the vast majority of the pro cities in North America are in a similar boat. In fact, having that many franchises that densely packed is the exact reason the Whalers moved out and aren't coming back. Market saturation is a real thing, and the NHL learned very fast that it could not only survive, but thrive by spreading that wealth.

You might not like it, and I get that, and your affiliation might not be ideal, but those bad feelings are dissipating over time, and what used to be a heavy Whaler area is now being absorbed into the other regional bases. Of course there will be a small subset of holdouts, but those numbers are dwindling by the year.

And no, its not like the RedSox moving and being told to follow the Yankees farm. Its like if the Angels moved from Anaheim and the fans were told to follow the farm of the Dodgers. Slap in the face to the fans? Sure, but a small price to pay for the growth of the league.

 

[bleedgreen]

Ok, go back 20 years and tell people they're giving up their team "for the growth of the league".

Of course the feelings have faded and the fan base is being absorbed. It's been 20 years. I was explaining to one person why "I" wouldn't support that particular team. What the feelings were like 20 years ago and why, not now.

I have no idea what your first two paragraphs are about. I wasn't saying either pro or con about the market saturation, just that it's hard to explain to the Canes fans who are from there what it was like growing up a Whaler fan in New England - or any sports fan in New England. Not in an uppity way, Canes fans don't always get why Whalers fans are so persistent and still exist. It's the nature of the region. I wouldn't expect people from a different part of the country to get it. I don't get NC, and I wouldn't get my feathers ruffled if someone explained it to me.

I'm not saying having 6 teams nearby is a good thing, just that it creates an effect that is unique to New England/New York areas. That it creates a completely different vibe in terms of how you view other teams and fanbases. For Canes fans its about playoff series or who's fanbase is the most obnoxious at your games. Growing up in CT I had Red Sox and Yankees gear with accompanying arguments on either side of me. Elementary school through college through adulthood. All sports and it got more passionate about the Whalers because it was actually our team and even amongst ourselves family backgrounds got in the way and created arguments. Nobody agrees about anything. My FB gets lit up with old friends yelling at each other now.

 

[JCLA]

If the canes moved I don't think I'd give two f***s about the growth of the league

 

[Svechhammer]

Ok, go back 20 years and tell people they're giving up their team "for the growth of the league".

Of course the feelings have faded and the fan base is being absorbed. It's been 20 years. I was explaining to one person why "I" wouldn't support that particular team. What the feelings were like 20 years ago and why, not now.

I have no idea what your first two paragraphs are about. I wasn't saying either pro or con about the market saturation, just that it's hard to explain to the Canes fans who are from there what it was like growing up a Whaler fan in New England - or any sports fan in New England.

Honestly, having dealt with those same fans who couldn't let a discussion about the Canes go without injecting the Whale into it in some form... I really honestly don't care about the feelings of the people of Hartford after the team left. Sure, there are a lot of fans who were ok with it, and didn't bother us, but enough did without being told to shut up (even in a professional manner, such as ESPN personalities, the CT gov't, etc) that I really just don't give 2 damns about how bad it felt to have the team ripped away. I did at the time, but 20 years of being told how inferior you are by those same people changed that.

If I had my way, we'd put the Whale logo on the toilet paper in PNC.

 

[bleedgreen]

Funny that's your attitude now that Dundon is here. You were a half step away from having the same fate. Talking down to the only group of people that actually get what you're going through, from watching the team play AND the business side.

I'm not going anywhere so I guess you'll have to get used to it for another 20.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What you're describing is nothing more than being a fan of an out-of-market franchise. Being two hours away from the team you cheer for is nothing. In Raleigh, we have to drive further than that to see our local NFL or NBA franchise play its home games. We have to travel over twice that distance to catch the closest home MLB game to our city. Being 2 hours away is nothing, all things considered.

You say you can get to 5 or 6 venues easily so that's a reason the fans can't adopt anyone else, and I say that's a crap argument. We can't get anywhere else easily from Raleigh, and the vast majority of the pro cities in North America are in a similar boat. In fact, having that many franchises that densely packed is the exact reason the Whalers moved out and aren't coming back. Market saturation is a real thing, and the NHL learned very fast that it could not only survive, but thrive by spreading that wealth.

You might not like it, and I get that, and your affiliation might not be ideal, but those bad feelings are dissipating over time, and what used to be a heavy Whaler area is now being absorbed into the other regional bases. Of course there will be a small subset of holdouts, but those numbers are dwindling by the year.

And no, its not like the RedSox moving and being told to follow the Yankees farm. Its like if the Angels moved from Anaheim and the fans were told to follow the farm of the Dodgers. Slap in the face to the fans? Sure, but a small price to pay for the growth of the league.

So you think if Duke suddenly disappeared, that Duke fans would just easily adopt UNC as their team? Or if the Green Bay Packers suddenly moved, those fans would then suddenly adopt the Chicago bears? It's more than a case of other teams being close, it's the sometimes fierce, and bitter rivalries, and the passion that such proximity drives. That's what Bleed is describing.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Funny that's your attitude now that Dundon is here. You were a half step away from having the same fate. Talking down to the only group of people that actually get what you're going through, from watching the team play AND the business side.

I'm not going anywhere so I guess you'll have to get used to it for another 20.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and if so I apologize, but you almost seem disappointed in that, Bleed...

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's hard to explain to you guys, New England is a different kinda place for pro sports. You don't have natural geographic rivals for the Canes - much like here in CO. I could get to 5 or 6 NHL teams without too much difficulty from CT. Most people from CT have family or are themselves from NY or Mass. Or as sports fans wished they were there. I spent my whole life arguing Pats vs Giants, Celts vs Knicks, Sox vs Yankees. Everywhere. Every day. Every person around me. New England is insane about pro sports in a way that's hard to put into words, just like things in NC are NE'ers wouldn't get without experiencing. We're really friggin annoying.

It's like college sports in the South.

Maybe a good parallel is if (somehow) the state decided that the Triangle was plenty well served by NC State University, and so the campus at Chapel Hill was shuttered and liquidated in order to form a new school in Murphy. Meanwhile the former Tar Heels fans can now embrace either NC State or Duke as their local team.

I can kind of see how that wouldn't go over very well.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

It's like college sports in the South.

Maybe a good parallel is if (somehow) the state decided that the Triangle was plenty well served by NC State University, and so the campus at Chapel Hill was shuttered and liquidated in order to form a new school in Murphy. Meanwhile the former Tar Heels fans can now embrace either NC State or Duke as their local team.

I can kind of see how that wouldn't go over very well.

I can somewhat understand it but at the same time it still doesn't make sense to me - as an admitted fanatic of Minor League Baseball, I can put aside the affiliation of the local team for the most part, even when they're affiliated with an MLB team I despise and I feel that's the most comparable example. I didn't suddenly hate the Mudcats a few years ago when they were a Braves affiliate nor do I hate them now that they're a Brewers affiliate. It's the same thing with the Wolf Pack, as I see it. Yes they're the Rangers Triple-A farm, but they're the Wolf Pack, not the Rangers - many of those players will never wear a Rangers uniform and some aren't under contract to the Rangers but to Hartford proper.

 

[bleedgreen]

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and if so I apologize, but you almost seem disappointed in that, Bleed...

Why? You're definitely reading me wrong. I don't wish what we went through on anyone. It's only sports, I know but it can play a big part of the culture you're brought up with.

Do I think some fans have surprising attitudes after routing for a team that has attendance issues and previous constant questions about relocation looking down on another area who went through the same thing? There might be something to that. If it's so offensive to hear about the history don't sell the shirts and play the song. You can't pick the parts of the history you wish to when there are people around who still remember the whole thing. I know not everyone is down with the team bring the history back, and I get that too but it is what it is and we all can coexist as we always have. I've always accepted what happened as the past and embraced this team, it's a two way street of respect. I've never clowned NC about hockey, sometimes it gets old not getting the same treatment back. I made a point of not being one of those Whalers fans that spews anger every time they post. It's the past. I'd love to see Harftord have a team again but I'll never expect it as long as Bettman breathes and I don't spend time fighting for it. I don't live there anymore, it's not my place.

 

[bleedgreen]

I can somewhat understand it but at the same time it still doesn't make sense to me - as an admitted fanatic of Minor League Baseball, I can put aside the affiliation of the local team for the most part, even when they're affiliated with an MLB team I despise and I feel that's the most comparable example. I didn't suddenly hate the Mudcats a few years ago when they were a Braves affiliate nor do I hate them now that they're a Brewers affiliate. It's the same thing with the Wolf Pack, as I see it. Yes they're the Rangers Triple-A farm, but they're the Wolf Pack, not the Rangers - many of those players will never wear a Rangers uniform and some aren't under contract to the Rangers but to Hartford proper.

From the logical point of view you have here and now about this topic, of course it sounds like a reasonable thing. All I can say is that it just wasnt/isn't that way in that area for me and I think a lot of people. I didn't do a good job of explaining and I won't bother trying again. I'll just leave it at for the reasons I've already said that what seems here to be a logical conclusion to you wasn't even a concept that could be considered at the time. It was an insult to the highest level.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I can somewhat understand it but at the same time it still doesn't make sense to me - as an admitted fanatic of Minor League Baseball, I can put aside the affiliation of the local team for the most part, even when they're affiliated with an MLB team I despise and I feel that's the most comparable example. I didn't suddenly hate the Mudcats a few years ago when they were a Braves affiliate nor do I hate them now that they're a Brewers affiliate. It's the same thing with the Wolf Pack, as I see it. Yes they're the Rangers Triple-A farm, but they're the Wolf Pack, not the Rangers - many of those players will never wear a Rangers uniform and some aren't under contract to the Rangers but to Hartford proper.

That's a pretty rational way to think about it, but you have to consider most people are not rational when it comes to sports rivalries. It makes no sense for a bunch of grown men to get in parking lot fights over this stuff, but they do it. It makes no sense for someone who went to a major public university to literally HATE another major public university in the same community, but they do it. Don't even get me started on SEC football. People who didn't even dream of going to EITHER school will get themselves arrested fighting over the outcome of a football game.

People are crazy about this stuff. I think what bleed is saying, is that the irrationality expresses itself in pro sports in a way that doesn't happen in the South. Which is true, because it definitely manifests more in college sports here.

Why? You're definitely reading me wrong. I don't wish what we went through on anyone. It's only sports, I know but it can play a big part of the culture you're brought up with.

Do I think some fans have surprising attitudes after routing for a team that has attendance issues and previous constant questions about relocation looking down on another area who went through the same thing? There might be something to that. If it's so offensive to hear about the history don't sell the shirts and play the song. You can't pick the parts of the history you wish to when there are people around who still remember the whole thing. I know not everyone is down with the team bring the history back, and I get that too but it is what it is and we all can coexist as we always have. I've always accepted what happened as the past and embraced this team, it's a two way street of respect. I've never clowned NC about hockey, sometimes it gets old not getting the same treatment back.

In fairness to GP, he made basically the exact same argument when Dundon first mentioned this Whalers identity stuff. That the two histories are better off left alone, rather than inviting a bunch of blowback from people who will take even the slightest overture toward Hartford as a desire to throw the Hurricanes in the trash and go back to their "real" home. Governor Malloy's response pretty much vindicates that point of view.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It's logical to say fans should be able to enjoy the lower leagues of hockey even if it's the farm team of a hated rival, but fans, almost by definition, usually aren't logical. The more passionate a fan is about a team, the less logical they are likely to be. I can understand that.

 

[bleedgreen]

That's fair Tarheel, but no one actually thinks the Canes are going to be the Whalers again. That's some grandstanding bs playing to his crowd - when even his crowd thinks it's stupid concept.

 

[Svechhammer]

So you think if Duke suddenly disappeared, that Duke fans would just easily adopt UNC as their team? Or if the Green Bay Packers suddenly moved, those fans would then suddenly adopt the Chicago bears? It's more than a case of other teams being close, it's the sometimes fierce, and bitter rivalries, and the passion that such proximity drives. That's what Bleed is describing.

They'd probably just start to follow one of their local teams, like Rutgers or St. John's.