Funnily (or sadly) people here read only the lede and not the op. I specifically amended the 8/yr to whatever he might be signed to, but the number I presented in the lede seems to be a sticking point. If Carlson could be signed to a lower figure, that to me makes him more attractive. Tavares is not going to be signed at 8/. His number will float between 9-11/yr imo. Regardless, Zeke's interpretation of that he is a 3rd, I disagree with, though I can not comment on the tougher competition aspect. His TOI beats both of them. His offensive contributions exceed the two combined, or almost. He is a power play specialist, which has been argued we need consistently on this board. We could use this type of player.
Carlson vs Tavares: I'll take JC over JT for $8m, Alex.
- Thread starter meefer
- Start date
"So much fail with this. We ain't getting Parayko for scrapes"
... That comment is more of a fail ... I didn't even propose a trade ...
Here's what I did say:
"Zaitsev + Hyman + Carrick + Leivo + Prospects + Picks"
If you don't think this kind of package gets Parayko:
Zaitsev + Hyman + Carrick + Leivo + Bracco + Nielsen + 1st + 2nd.
Than you're dumb (its a ridiculous over-payment & the Blues would be laughing).
---------------
Dougie Hamilton at 21 a good comparable (42 points in 72 games for Boston).
Calgary paid a 1st + 2nd + 2nd (probably a worse offer than Zaitsev + 1st + 2nd).
The max it would take is probably Zaitsev + Bracco + Nielsen + 1st + 2nd.
---------------
I'm not sure why, but some people hold a belief that Matthews, Marner or Nylander have to be included in any possible Leaf trade ... just because we have them. In terms of NHL player trade value:
Matthews is probably in the top 5.
Marner is probably in the top 20.
Nylander is probably in the top 30.
There are only 2 things any of them would be traded for:
1) A 19-22 year old (LW/C/RD) with similar potential (Barzal, Ehlers, McAvoy, etc.)
2) A 23-25 year old (LW/C/RD) star with 5+ years of term (Scheifele, Gaudreau, Jones, etc.)
Last edited:
I'm not the OP but I would agree with him.
I don't think that defense is over rated in the NHL, but I do think that forwards (especially centers) play almost as critical a role in team defense & I think that aspect gets over looked.
If you replace Bozak with John Tavares - our team defense immediately gets a LOT better. Tavares would probably improve the D just as much as a 2nd pair RD would.
...but then we'll also have Matthews, Tavares & Kadri coming in waves. If Babs can get Kadri out against the opponents number one line....were gonna see one of Matthews or Tavares playing against a line of pylons almost every night.
I'd like to see that....
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
- 70,212
- 9,189
hm. okay. thanks.
I know when i talk about defense, i mean the overall defense, not just the back end but i can see that.
thanks for answering.
Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 21,167
- 23,478
That's all well and good, but we aren't comparing Tavares to a 2nd pair RD. We are talking about a guy who gets 25 minutes a game, top pairing PP AND PK time.
So, I might just suggest, that a top pairing RHD, that plays 25 minutes a game, is going to have a significantly bigger impact on team D, than an average at best (defensively) C, playing 16-18 minutes a game.
Having forwards on the ice, when you don't have the D, to keep the puck out of your own zone, won't allow them to fully factor into the game.
We are talking top 30 in the NHL PK time for a D, top 30 in the NHL for PP time, and second in points for D in the NHL.
Tavares is on 65 points, Carlson on 53 points.... it's not like we are making a decision on an offensive black hole Defensive D man here.
Instead we have Matthews, Nylander and Kadri coming in waves.... Or maybe Matthews, Kadri and Thornton... and a top D.
A top pairing, 25 minute a game RHD, is going to have far more impact on our team, than a 16-18 minute C.
Liminality
Registered User
- Oct 22, 2008
- 13,366
- 4,013
I think it also impacts the rest of the right side Dmen getting pushed further down the depth chart.
Lets say hypothetically we have a RD like Carlson to play on the top pair (Insert any high end RD)
Rielly-Carlson
Gardiner-Zaitsev
Dermott-Hainsey
Having Carlson pushes down Hainsey and he can be the new Polak where he's pretty much only relied on for the PK. Although Hainsey can clearly handle his own in 5 on 5. The trickle effect on the defense I think is greater for this team than the trickle effect for our offense if we get a top end center like Tavares.
All I take from this is...
1) You think that Tavares is "average at best defensively".
2) You think that Carlson is amazing in the defensive zone.
When the truth is...
1) Tavares widely considered an elite defensive center.
2) Carlson is widely panned for being an offensive D that isn't very good in his own end.
Do you watch hockey?
Pyrophorus
Registered User
Carlson AND deHaan would be a great summer.
Though last night also said we need some great offensively....but I think we should draft that.
Though last night also said we need some great offensively....but I think we should draft that.
Think you're stretching on the "widely considered an elite defensive C" but the rest is pretty spot on.
Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 21,167
- 23,478
LOL.... Yup... Carlson isn't very good in his own end. That's why he has second most minutes on his team on the PK, and is top 30 in the league with such time.
Tavares was a dumpster fire in his own zone in the early part of his career, but he has worked hard at that, and is greatly improved. I don't think the Selke votes were really deserved, more just an offensive guy making some effort. He was actually better than average last season, and maybe just average this season defensively. One of his ongoing challenges will be his foot speed going forward. It's never been a strength of his, and likely not to get any better, if not worse.
To be clear, this is indeed the best season Carlson has ever had in every way imaginable. Defensively, Carlson has been crucial to the Capitals’ survival, especially at a time when the Washington blueline is possibly thinner than it has been since his arrival. The proof of that can be found in the fact no one has taken more defensive-zone starts for Washington at 5-on-5 than Carlson or that he’s averaging upwards of 26 minutes per night for the Capitals. That’s about three minutes more than the next-closest Capitals defender, Dmitry Orlov, and the fifth-highest average ice time in the entire NHL. The only defensemen with higher average ice times are Drew Doughty, Ryan Suter, Erik Karlsson and Rasmus Ristolainen.
And while there’s rarely any flash to solid defensive play which can sometimes make praise hard to come by, Carlson has more than made up for it by making his presence felt as an offensive driver for the Caps. Top 40 in shots blocked...
Read this...
On what makes John Carlson so good at defending the blue line
Brooks Orpik defended the blue line like a boss last season
Do you watch hockey?
Americanadian
Registered User
1. I don't see why Carlson would sign with the leafs. I'm not sure the allure of Toronto is there for the big name american UFA's.
2. If he was willing to sign with us, and assuming Tavares is too, we could sign both at 7 and 10M respectively.
Hyman 2.25 - Matthews 0.925 - Nylander 6
Brown 2.1 - Tavares 10 - Marner 0.9
Marleau 6.25 - Kadri 4.5 - Kapanen 0.85
Martin 2.5 - Aaltonen 0.85 - Komarov 1.5
Leivo 0.925
Rielly 5 - Carlson 7
Gardiner 4.1 - Zaitsev 4.5
Dermott 0.85 - Hainsey 3
Borgman 0.925
Andersen 5
McElhenney 0.85
Cap hit with Kessel = 72M.
2. If he was willing to sign with us, and assuming Tavares is too, we could sign both at 7 and 10M respectively.
Hyman 2.25 - Matthews 0.925 - Nylander 6
Brown 2.1 - Tavares 10 - Marner 0.9
Marleau 6.25 - Kadri 4.5 - Kapanen 0.85
Martin 2.5 - Aaltonen 0.85 - Komarov 1.5
Leivo 0.925
Rielly 5 - Carlson 7
Gardiner 4.1 - Zaitsev 4.5
Dermott 0.85 - Hainsey 3
Borgman 0.925
Andersen 5
McElhenney 0.85
Cap hit with Kessel = 72M.
WestCoastLeafs
I beleaf
- Jun 10, 2013
- 2,668
- 876
If you're going to post salaries please do it for 19-20. The 18-19 season is irrelevant, with Matthews/Marner still on ELC
inthe6ix
Registered User
Liminality
Registered User
- Oct 22, 2008
- 13,366
- 4,013
Not sure if it's crazy anymore.
Buff got 7.6m for 5 years, Burns got 8m 8 years, Vlasic got 7m 8 years, Shattenkirk got 6.65m for 4 years.
I think Carlson is on the higher end of that group and he's having a career season. That's going to mean big bucks for him.
Did you even read the thread? OP mentioned multiple times that the money each player will get isn’t set in stone.
I think it’s a good debate and really comes down to team needs going forward and cap implications. Bringing in Tavares for more than 10 million worries me abit because between him and the big 3 they will be taking up over 30 million each year. That’s lots of money to spend on 4 guys up front. I’m not too worried about Tavares aging quickly and being terribly overpaid, but it can happen fairly quickly. Fortunately, it would only be for 7 years and begins next season which is good. Not like some of those 8 year extensions 27 year old guys get before the last year of their previous deal even begins.
Having nylander move to C makes sense to me seeing as how he has played well there at every other level and will be in an insulated situation with Matthews and Kadri taking the tougher competition. It’s also fairly easy to find good wingers via trade, draft and free agency.
In 3 years
Hyman- Matthews - Marner
Grundstrom- Kadri - Kapanen
Johnnson - Nylander - Brown
Whoever- someone to win draws- whoever
Rielly - ????
Gardiner or Dermott- Liljegren or Zaitsev
Whoever- Liljegren or Zaitsev
Andersen
Sparks or Pickard?
I just don’t see how we can fill the top RHD spot from within. Yes Liljegren could really take off, but I don’t see him and Rielly making for a great top pair to matchup against other teams top lines. Maybe if Dermott really improves him and Liljegren would compliment each other better but that would be more like 5 years down the road IMO.
Not sure if Carlson is the guy I’d open the bank for with Doughty and co. possibly hitting FA next year, but at some point I think they’ll need to go out and get a top pair RHD.
So I guess I’m saying I’d pass on both, but I understand the arguments for signing either player.
Tak7
Registered User
I voted Carlson purely out of need.
Tavares would obviously be outstanding, but I don't think:
a) he signs here
b) leafs need him over proper blueline upgrade.
c) it's a smart move against the cap.
Most people's "projected" lineups with Tavares include a team that doesn't have much wiggle room under the cap. That's not the right way to build a team
Tavares would obviously be outstanding, but I don't think:
a) he signs here
b) leafs need him over proper blueline upgrade.
c) it's a smart move against the cap.
Most people's "projected" lineups with Tavares include a team that doesn't have much wiggle room under the cap. That's not the right way to build a team
SprDaVE
Moderator
- Sep 20, 2008
- 51,841
- 33,023
You do know that trades are a thing in the NHL? I like Brown and Hyman but if you need to make ~2-5M in cap space to fit in Tavares or a high profile player, I'm pretty sure you can move one or both to make that happen.
The decision to sign Marleau to a 3 year deal might be the biggest mistake the Leafs made in hindsight in a year or two.
Tak7
Registered User
What money are you moving out to create room for Tavares?
Brown and Hyman are Babcock guys and aren't moving anywhere.
Zaitsev is in year 1 of a long term deal.
Marleau you can't move.
Realistically that leaves Gardiner - on an already weak defensive team moving Gardiner for more goals is just stupid.
Put down your copy of NHL 18 and start thinking big picture a little bit.
SprDaVE
Moderator
- Sep 20, 2008
- 51,841
- 33,023
Why aren't they moving? They are secondary assets paid secondary money. If they aren't untouchable, we have a big problem, especially to make room for Tavares. Let's be real. You're saying you can't make room for Tavares but you're not budging on moving Brown or Hyman? What?
Kadri is moveable as well. Eventually, it's possible we will have to move Nylander or Marner when things get tight. This is a cap world after all. We will sign players and we will trade players. The cap is going up and the Leafs have plenty of flexibility and options with their cap space.
My copy of NHL18 is fairly dusty and untouched. I'm fine here.
Tak7
Registered User
Polak still gets a regular shift despite being a possession black hole, a CFRel nightmare, and a goals against machine.
But you think Babcock is going to move Hyman and Brown out of town? 4
Like I said - you just aren't living with reality. Hyman and Brown are virtually untouchable.
SprDaVE
Moderator
- Sep 20, 2008
- 51,841
- 33,023
Your reality is that you don't think the Leafs will ever move Brown and Hyman to potentially make room for better players, especially when the cap gets tight?
Ok. I'll be... over there.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 73,593
- 38,925
