Player Discussion Carey Price - Need a Jesus Price resurrection [MOD WARNING 526]

[junyab]

Koivu would decide to stay in Montreal because he would have a chance winning a Cup here instead leaving to Ana playing with Getzlaf. And we might keep Kovalev and Tanguay. But anyway, not having Gomez is great and keeping McDonagh too.

The point I was making seems to have slid past you somehow. Koivu didn't leave because he wanted to, Montreal didn't want to re-sign him.

 

[junyab]

Yeah that's how arbitrage usually works. A bunch of people think something's value is one thing, when it's actually another.



Lol wait...wait wait wait wait. You think that would be a bad return for Price? Do you think it would be realistic to get more than that? That pick could have been Robert Thomas or Filip Chytil (I was Chytil superfan #1 around here, potentially #1b behind WTK). And there were two good goaltenders available for dirt cheap in the off-season. Bishop and Raanta. Both of whom are better than Price this year.

So perhaps you'll answer the question that LG has never had the chutzpah to answer:

Thomas/Chytil + Connor + Bishop

Price + 4th

Which would you pick?

Love the 4th added in there. Price, easily.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

The point I was making seems to have slid past you somehow. Koivu didn't leave because he wanted to, Montreal didn't want to re-sign him.

Yeah, whatever, Kopitar would have been better replacement to Koivu compare to Gomez. And who knows if Koivu would decide to stay here if having Kopitar a positive move into the right direction and removing some pressure from his shoulder. Imagine the center line Kopitar, Koivu and Plekanec. Just perfect !!

 

[junyab]

Yeah, whatever, Kopitar would have been better replacement to Koivu compare to Gomez. And who knows if Koivu would decide to stay here if having Kopitar a positive move into the right direction and removing some pressure from his shoulder. Imagine the center line Kopitar, Koivu and Plekanec. Just perfect !!

Again. Koivu didn't decide to leave. Montreal didn't offer him a contract.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Saku+Koivu+comes+Montreal/1771316/story.html

 

[NotProkofievian]

Love the 4th added in there. Price, easily.

Bold, which is nice for a change.

Out of curiosity, what would you trade Price for?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I dont think anyone would mind Prices contract if we had a centermen that matched and warranted it. it. Like every contender in the league does.

And that's what I've said. There's nothing wrong with the contract itself. The problem is not following it up.

And not only did we not follow it up, we went out and let players go...

You think the Habs should have picked Kopitar? Hey that's great. That was never the choice.

Carey Price or Marc Staal. That was the choice.

I thought Brule was next on our list.

Here's how it works baby steps by baby steps. Simple, follow the steps.

1. We draft Kopitar
2. When Koivu leaves Mtl to sign with Anaheim, we don't need to get Gomez because Kopitar was already NHL dominant at the time. So we would have Kopitar and not Gomez. We also keep McDonagh. We can forget all the Gomez thing, that would never happen.
Our #1 goalie is Halak, our #1 center is Kopitar, we have McDonagh, Subban, Markov, Paccioretty, Camalleri and Gionta. Now we run into the PO in 2009 much more stronger. We might win over Philly. I guess we win over Boston in 2011 and who knows? A Stanley Cup?

I've got a better idea, if we're going to cherrypick players, let's do it with Nik Lidstrom.

1. Draft Lidstrom
2. Profit

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Okay, you would have ''gone for it.'' I wouldn't have. I would have traded Price for futures, and got us a different starter, and obviously we'd be better off than we are now. Who isn't better than Price currently? Clearly you're not the only one who is coo coo for cocoa puffs over Price, we could have exploited a market inefficiency and kick started our rebuild (that you agree is now necessary) in style.

Cool. Blowing it up was certainly an option and I don't think it would be crazy to have done that. I'm just saying that blowing it up should be a last resort. I'd rather have gone for it now. You can always trade Price/Weber down the road if it doesn't work out.

1.) What sort of value do you think Price has right now? Nobody wants that headache, he might as well not even have an NMC.

2.) Solid is what people call Karl Alzner. He was about replacement level.

3.) What an incredible conclusion. When you omit every year in which he was mediocre or bad, his numbers go up. You haven't refuted a single argument that I've made, or provided a single data point, so I think this will be my last reply to you unless you come up with something interesting.

I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone so enamoured with a player who wasn't clearly the best player in the world. I am certain there are people in the world who are more ambivalent about McDavid.

1. I think he's got a ton of value. And if a contending team has a key injury he'll be worth that much more.

2. In one out of seven seasons he was middle of the road and it was on a 27th place team.

3. I'm not omitting anything. Four out of seven seasons he's top five in Vezina. Five out of seven he's top ten. And in another he's leading the league before getting hurt. That leaves one season where he's on a bad team and has middle of the pack numbers.

That doesn't even make sense. You have repeatedly said that Price single-handedly has brought us to 100 point seasons on more than one occasion. You have also said that this is not really possible. This is not about being literal, it's about being logical.

And yes, players are not to be considered equal. I'm not sure how that addresses anything I said, but Carey Price is, without a doubt, the least valuable ''superstar'' in the game. I would trade him for any single one that you could name. It's too bad that there'd be no trading partners.

What I've said is that that he's come as close as you can to carrying a team. I'm not explaining this again.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

And that's what I've said. There's nothing wrong with the contract itself. The problem is not following it up.

And not only did we not follow it up, we went out and let players go...

I thought Brule was next on our list.

I've got a better idea, if we're going to cherrypick players, let's do it with Nik Lidstrom.

1. Draft Lidstrom
2. Profit

When I was following closely Habs draft in the 2000-21010 decade I was a die-hard fan of strenght at centerline. Koivu was okay but surely not enought for me. In 2003 my only hesitation was between Carter and Getzlaf but the year of Price I was mad because I wanted Kopitar. Never the names of Stall, Brule or Pouliot came in my mind, it was all Kopitar. But hey, I'm just a dude who knows nothing about hockey and Timmins is a god who knows more than me, lol. Of course my way of thinking being good at center was all wrong with the names of Carter, Getzlaf and Kopitar.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

@Lafleurs Guy the advocate by excellence of Carey Price (available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week)

I have no problem ripping the team or any of it's players. Carey Price has had a bad season, no question.

But to re-litigate what he's already done here is dumb. We did it with Subban and we're now doing it with Price. Sorry but I'm going to defend the players that deserve it when they deserve it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When I was following closely Habs draft in the 2000-21010 decade I was a die-hard fan of strenght at centerline. Koivu was okay but surely not enought for me. In 2003 my only hesitation was between Carter and Getzlaf but the year of Price I was mad because I wanted Kopitar. Never the names of Stall, Brule or Pouliot came in my mind, it was all Kopitar. But hey, I'm just a dude who knows nothing about hockey and Timmins is a god who knows more than me, lol. Of course my way of thinking being good at center was all wrong with the names of Carter, Getzlaf and Kopitar.

Saku Koivu would never lead a team to a cup. If you've got strength in other areas like having Price in net and Subban on the blueline you might be able to do it. But you'd have to have offense elsewhere and score by committee.

Would've been interesting to see what we could've done with a prime Koivu in the lineup over Desharnais. At least we'd have a real center there and not Desharnais.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Paradoxically, I think Bergevin could have bought himself more years if he had the temerity to actually trade Price. Especially with how the season has gone for Price, he'd look like a genius, on top of being bold. Now we've got 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, and we're dying in the middle (well, lower middle). Think about it, we traded our best prospect, 19 years old, and then proceeded to tank. Ouate de phoque.

If Bergevin traded Price and we had a season like we’re having this season, it would’ve made him look way worse then he already does. Everyone would’ve been screaming what was he doing trading the one player who could carry us blah blah blah. Whether it was the right move or not is hard to say. It’s easy to look at things with hindsight. Not one person in the summer could say with a straight face he’d have under a .900 save percentage 30+ games into the season. Where Bergevin went wrong was signing the deal the very moment he could. If he felt Price was coming in high, he should’ve waited and negotiated and if he still wasn’t coming down, excercised a backup plan. But we all know our GM never has a plan B when it comes to anything. I have a feeling Price gave them a number and said that’s what it would cost to keep him here. Letting him go just wasn’t an option for our foxhole. To many jobs rely on him playing like he had been. Which is ridiculous in and of itself.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I have no problem ripping the team or any of it's players. Carey Price has had a bad season, no question.

But to re-litigate what he's already done here is dumb. We did it with Subban and we're now doing it with Price. Sorry but I'm going to defend the players that deserve it when they deserve it.

Paccioretty is having a bashing bandwagon right now and I don't see you protecting him like you do with Price. It's your personal appreciation that decide who you like or not, who you protect on this board and who you don't. Two years ago there was Eller vs Desharnais battle and posters here were debating in between the two. Personnal views, just normal, nothing wrong.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Saku Koivu would never lead a team to a cup. If you've got strength in other areas like having Price in net and Subban on the blueline you might be able to do it. But you'd have to have offense elsewhere and score by committee.

Would've been interesting to see what we could've done with a prime Koivu in the lineup over Desharnais. At least we'd have a real center there and not Desharnais.

Not sure Koivu and Desharnais were in te same period of time. Maybe for a short time, I don't see why you bring Desharnais into the debate. Anyway I see the use of Desharnais because Gomez didn't do the job. Habs found a internal solution that was supposed to be temporary but last too long.

I always liked Koivu but to be honest I saw an excellent second center in him. If Getzlaf or Kopitar was in the same team, Koivu would be second center and Plekanec third. A perfect team in center in my book.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Paccioretty is having a bashing bandwagon right now and I don't see you protecting him like you do with Price. It's your personal appreciation that decide who you like or not, who you protect on this board and who you don't. Two years ago there was Eller vs Desharnais battle and posters here were debating in between the two. Personnal views, just normal, nothing wrong.

Max Paccioretty doesn't deserve the same level of defense that these other players do. That being said, I have defended him. He's a streaky scorer who's a solid player but unfortunately never had a real center to work with.

Price and Subban though I see as superstar level players who've been consistently good. The bashing they take from some posters are pretty ridiculous.

Not sure Koivu and Desharnais were in te same period of time. Maybe for a short time, I don't see why you bring Desharnais into the debate. Anyway I see the use of Desharnais because Gomez didn't do the job. Habs found a internal solution that was supposed to be temporary but last too long.

I always liked Koivu but to be honest I saw an excellent second center in him. If Getzlaf or Kopitar was in the same team, Koivu would be second center and Plekanec third. A perfect team in center in my book.

Koivu and DD were not in the same period of time. I bring in Desharnais only because I think we screwed ourselves over by using him the way we did.

All I'm saying is that it would've been cool to see what we could've done with a prime Koivu instead of him.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

All I'm saying is that it would've been cool to see what we could've done with a prime Koivu instead of him.

If you're saying it would have been cool to have Koivu in his prime from last 6 years to present yes I agree. Anytime Koivu is better than Desharnais but Koivu like anybody else gets old. It's like Red Wings fans would have like to have Yserman for 30 years. Maybe you didn't like his use over Eller or maybe you wanted habs to make a trade to get a better center. I was one of those.
Did Therrien overused Desharnais because there wasn't other choice, because he was 100% happy with DD? I don't know but there was someting wrong with that situation. Who's fault ? Therrien, Bergevin, Gauthier, Gainey?

Koivu would have been a better fit in the time of new rules about hocking but what about the 2000-10 time? Habs would have been so bad at the time.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If you're saying it would have been cool to have Koivu in his prime from last 6 years to present yes I agree. Anytime Koivu is better than Desharnais but Koivu like anybody else gets old. It's like Red Wings fans would have like to have Yserman for 30 years. Maybe you didn't like his use over Eller or maybe you wanted habs to make a trade to get a better center. I was one of those.
Did Therrien overused Desharnais because there wasn't other choice, because he was 100% happy with DD? I don't know but there was someting wrong with that situation. Who's fault ? Therrien, Bergevin, Gauthier, Gainey?

Koivu would have been a better fit in the time of new rules about hocking but what about the 2000-10 time? Habs would have been so bad at the time.

Gainey and Gauthier have nothing to do with that decision. It's on MB and MT. They could've played Chuck, Plek or Eller. Eller takes a lot of abuse as a guy who was inconsistent in his scoring (valid criticism) but we never really developed him well either. Instead we invested our time in DD.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Gainey and Gauthier have nothing to do with that decision. It's on MB and MT. They could've played Chuck, Plek or Eller. Eller takes a lot of abuse as a guy who was inconsistent in his scoring (valid criticism) but we never really developed him well either. Instead we invested our time in DD.

Maybe but none of the two were the solution at center. It wasn't as bad as you say because DD helped Paccio to score 30 goals at least 3 years and Habs did 100 pts in the season few times. Not bad for such a bad center like Desharnais. I don't think Eller was a good center. Maybe the timing was bad for him, arriving in a team that has no time to developp him, send back into a 3rd or 4th line, not able to really progress. If I remember, every time we said that's it, he's improving and now he's showing progress and consistancy, he did falled into mediocrity again and again. Yoyo up and down efforts ans results. On the other hand, DD was more constant.
I suggest you forget about Eller. I guess you went into a lot of debates here, waist of time for such an ordinary player.

 

[c3z4r]

I think you're missing a very important point. Not a single Defenseman of Subban's calibre has had a contact renewal since that signing.

Several are coming up soon, and a few will eclipse the $9M. Depending where Karlsson signs, he might very well be in the rarefied air of McDavid.

Burns and Hedman aren't of Subban's calibre?

 

[Price is Wright]

I thought Brule was next on our list.

Timmins gave Gainey the choice of the franchise defenceman (Staal) or the franchise goalie (Price) and Gainey picked the goalie. They've both done interviews since 05 talking about it.

Brule was available and taken right after, which was on the hilarious Blue Jackets documentary where Doug MacLean goes, "What!? Montreal took the goalie?" before looking like he just drafted a superstar in Brule.

Kopitar might have been on a short list but he was not top two in Timmins eyes so the idea of Montreal drafting him is just fantasy.

 

[groovejuice]

Burns and Hedman aren't of Subban's calibre?

I forgot about those guys. They both signed after last season, right?

They both left money on the table to stay put. One reason for that was that neither was forced into a lowball bridge. Both got nice contracts and term out of their ELCs.

Personally I don't think Burns is in the same class as PK defensively and Hedman has had fewer dominant seasons.

Both could have gotten $9M had they pushed.

 

[PaulD]

I have no problem ripping the team or any of it's players. Carey Price has had a bad season, no question.

But to re-litigate what he's already done here is dumb. We did it with Subban and we're now doing it with Price. Sorry but I'm going to defend the players that deserve it when they deserve it.

Price is deserving the repect you give him. He has been the best Montreal Canadien for years.

But I do hear the guys when they say having the best goalie in the world on a team like this is turning out to be a waste of great talent.

When someone says this team would have been better off with Kopitar than Price dont take it as a personal insult. Or a rip on Carey. It is more a slight on the Canadiens and their glaring, never ending, pathetic lack of elite talent at center. Also a compliment to Kopitar. Who is also worthy of the repsect he is being shown.

Price is the best goalie the Canadiens have had since Roy. Kopitar might have been the best center they have had since Beliveau .

They way things have turned out I can see why the urge to play "what if" is rearing its sometimes ugly head.

 

[nhlfan9191]

When I was following closely Habs draft in the 2000-21010 decade I was a die-hard fan of strenght at centerline. Koivu was okay but surely not enought for me. In 2003 my only hesitation was between Carter and Getzlaf but the year of Price I was mad because I wanted Kopitar. Never the names of Stall, Brule or Pouliot came in my mind, it was all Kopitar. But hey, I'm just a dude who knows nothing about hockey and Timmins is a god who knows more than me, lol. Of course my way of thinking being good at center was all wrong with the names of Carter, Getzlaf and Kopitar.

I mean, it’s pretty easy for anyone to come on to a hockey message board after well over a decade and say “Hey! I knew who all the best players would be in their draft! I knew more then everyone!” Don’t believe this for a second because if you had actually watched and followed the players in those drafts, you would know it wasn’t as simple as what you’re implying.

 

[PaulD]

I mean, it’s pretty easy for anyone to come on to a hockey message board after well over a decade and say “Hey! I knew who all the best players would be in their draft! I knew more then everyone!” Don’t believe this for a second because if you had actually watched and followed the players in those drafts, you would know it wasn’t as simple as what you’re implying.

I remember being surprised that they took a goalie.
I also remember Gainey taking a lot of flack.
I also remember Bob getting the last laugh when Carey turned into a superstar.

But to be fair, there were more than a few Hab fans stating AT THE TIME they wanted Kopitar. I was not one of them. But i heard them.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I remember being surprised that they took a goalie.
I also remember Gainey taking a lot of flack.
I also remember Bob getting the last laugh when Carey turned into a superstar.

But to be fair, there were more than a few Hab fans that AT THE TIME wanted Kopitar. I was not one of them. But i heard them.

We should be thankful that we did take Price because it wouldn’t have been Kopitar on the team, it would’ve been Brule which would’ve been a disaster.

 

[PaulD]

Burns and Hedman aren't of Subban's calibre?

To everyone except PKs fan club.