Carey Price and the Dogs win the Calder Cup!!!! Price Calder Cup playoffs MVP!

[AH]

The situations were hardly identical, the Marlies graduated 8 guys to the NHL before Pogge showed up and because of that he was playing behind a lot of inexperienced players, 5 to 8 rookies on any given night. Every goalie that played for them had worse stats than they did the season before.

Montreal and Toronto approach the AHL differently, the Leafs own their team and use it for development purposes primarily while the ownership of Hamilton wants to win a Calder Cup primarily.

Since 2003 when Bob Gainey has taken over as GM, the Dogs have graduated the following people to the NHL (as of players who have played in the NHL in 2006-2007).

On the Habs:

Komisarek
Halak
Kostitsyn
Lapierre
Ryder
Higgins
Plekanec
Perezhogin

Other NHL teams:

Hainsey
Hossa
Garon

This doesn't include Cote, Danis, Milroy, Grabovski and Ferland.. All young players who played in Montreal at some point in the last two years.

That's 16 players in the NHL in the last 4 years that played in Hamilton, 11 of whom are now regulars in the NHL. You can probably add at least a 4 or 5 more who could make the jump next year as regulars (Chipchura, O'Byrne, Price??, D'Agostini, Milroy, Grabo). That's almost an entire NHL team in less than 5 years.

Whatever you say man with regards to Montreal and Toronto using their AHL teams for different purposes. Obviously, you fail to give credit where it's due. Numbers like that dont lie.

 

[Whitesnake]

Oh please. If you can find me another example of so many fans spewing out so much vitriol about a draft pick, only to be completely hanging off his nuts two years later then I'd love to see it. This kind of swing in opinion is a lot more than just "changing your mind", which is exactly why it's so funny.

Do you mean like "Rask is really superior to Pogge.....until he's traded" type of opinions???

 

[417]

Ian White, Brendan Bell, Kris Newbury, Andy Wozniewski, Alexei Ponikarovsky. Mikael Tellqvist...

When I wrote rookies, I of course meant first year pros. Eliminate the guys from your list who played pro either in Europe or in the ECHL or aren't on the roster any longer and it gets a lot shorter.

Do you want me to list current players on the Habs roster and around the NHL who've been developped by the Bulldogs the past 3 or 4 years

Chris Higgins, Tomas Plekanec, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Michael Ryder, Mike Komisarek, Francis Bouillon, Jaroslav Halak, Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Francois Beauchemin, Jason Ward, Jarrett Stoll, Fernando Pisani, Raffi Torres, Brad Winchester, Tony Selmelainen, Bobby Allen, M-A Bergeron, Alexei Semenov, Mathieu Garon, Ty Conklin, Alexander Svitov, Steve Ott, Antii Miettinen, Raitis Ivanans, Mathieu Roy, etc...

and I've haven't even gotten to the players who are sure to see some time with the Habs next year.

The Hamilton Bulldogs have pretty much been an NHL player producing factory the last 3 or 4 years

 

[JaymzB]

Do you want me to list current players on the Habs roster and around the NHL who've been developped by the Bulldogs the past 3 or 4 years

Chris Higgins, Tomas Plekanec, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Michael Ryder, Mike Komisarek, Francis Bouillon, Jaroslav Halak, Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Francois Beauchemin, Jason Ward, Jarrett Stoll, Fernando Pisani, Raffi Torres, Brad Winchester, Tony Selmelainen, Bobby Allen, M-A Bergeron, Alexei Semenov, Mathieu Garon, Ty Conklin, Alexander Svitov, Steve Ott, Antii Miettinen, Raitis Ivanans, Mathieu Roy, etc...

and I've haven't even gotten to the players who are sure to see some time with the Habs next year.

The Hamilton Bulldogs have pretty much been an NHL player producing factory the last 3 or 4 years

To be fair, that's prospects from 3 diffrent organizations.

 

[417]

To be fair, that's prospect from 3 diffrent organizations.

I know...I mentionned that.

The whole point was because mooseOAK is trying to say that the Toronto Marlies use a player developmental approach while the Hamilton Bulldogs try to win the Calder Cup every year by loading up on veterans, which couldn't be further from the truth

 

[BIG GIFS]

To be fair, that's prospect from 3 diffrent organizations.

Yeah but the point was if Hamilton was a team that develop young players or they only try to win the Calder Cup.

 

[JaymzB]

I know...I mentionned that.

The whole point was because mooseOAK is trying to say that the Toronto Marlies use a player developmental approach while the Hamilton Bulldogs try to win the Calder Cup every year by loading up on veterans, which couldn't be further from the truth

Yeah, but I’m pretty sure the jist of his argument is the Leafs use the Marlies more as a development tool than the Habs use Hamilton. I don’t agree with him, but personally I don’ think adding prospects from other organizations would help your side, IMO.

 

[habfan4]

Oh please. If you can find me another example of so many fans spewing out so much vitriol about a draft pick, only to be completely hanging off his nuts two years later then I'd love to see it. This kind of swing in opinion is a lot more than just "changing your mind", which is exactly why it's so funny.

Is there a point here, besides pointing out that the obvious? A fan base which is the size of the Habs base is going to have a substantial share of lemmings and dimwits. Given that Brule was on still available, the initial reaction to drafting Price (which at the time was an off the board pick) was to be expected. What bearing does that have on today?

 

[417]

Yeah, but I’m pretty sure the jist of his argument is the Leafs use the Marlies more as a development tool than the Habs use Hamilton. I don’t agree with him, but personally I don’ think adding prospects from other organizations would help your side, IMO.

I don't need help in this argument, he's wrong on every angle and he knows it. Jealousy makes some people speak in tongues at times.

Take away prospects from the other organizations and my point still holds weight. The Bulldogs have always put a focus on player development, it just this year they added a player on an incredible streak to take them over the top.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Do you want me to list current players on the Habs roster and around the NHL who've been developped by the Bulldogs the past 3 or 4 years

Chris Higgins, Tomas Plekanec, Andrei Kostitsyn, Maxim Lapierre, Michael Ryder, Mike Komisarek, Francis Bouillon, Jaroslav Halak, Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Francois Beauchemin, Jason Ward, Jarrett Stoll, Fernando Pisani, Raffi Torres, Brad Winchester, Tony Selmelainen, Bobby Allen, M-A Bergeron, Alexei Semenov, Mathieu Garon, Ty Conklin, Alexander Svitov, Steve Ott, Antii Miettinen, Raitis Ivanans, Mathieu Roy, etc...

and I've haven't even gotten to the players who are sure to see some time with the Habs next year.

The Hamilton Bulldogs have pretty much been an NHL player producing factory the last 3 or 4 years

You of course mean players developed by the Bulldogs or played for them at one time or another.

The Leafs do things differently, they sign college free agents like Alex Foster, Reid Cashman, Jamie Sifers, Chris Harrington, Jeff Corey and put them out there to see what they can do knowing full well that they are going to struggle but is worth the risk to see if they can become NHL prospects. The team suffers for it a bit but finding and developing prospects is the Marlies' first job.

 

[colonel_korn]

Is there a point here, besides pointing out that the obvious? A fan base which is the size of the Habs base is going to have a substantial share of lemmings and dimwits. Given that Brule was on still available, the initial reaction to drafting Price (which at the time was an off the board pick) was to be expected. What bearing does that have on today?

The point is that it's amusing to look back at the reactions from two years ago, given that so many people are huge fans of Price now. That's all. I wouldn't even have remembered that thread if the initial reactions hadn't have been so over-the-top. I don't know why it's so difficult to see the humour in some of those responses.

 

[Little Nilan]

You of course mean players developed by the Bulldogs or played for them at one time or another.

The Leafs do things differently, they sign college free agents like Alex Foster, Reid Cashman, Jamie Sifers, Chris Harrington, Jeff Corey and put them out there to see what they can do knowing full well that they are going to struggle but is worth the risk to see if they can become NHL prospects. The team suffers for it a bit but finding and developing prospects is the Marlies' first job.

If the Bulldogs weren't there for developping, they would have put Halak as a starter and not an unproven 19 year old from the WHL. Every fact points to you being wrong so stop making excuses for the Marlies piss-poor team.

 

[417]

You of course mean players developed by the Bulldogs or played for them at one time or another.

The Leafs do things differently, they sign college free agents like Alex Foster, Reid Cashman, Jamie Sifers, Chris Harrington, Jeff Corey and put them out there to see what they can do knowing full well that they are going to struggle but is worth the risk to see if they can become NHL prospects. The team suffers for it a bit but finding and developing prospects is the Marlies' first job.

So you're trying to tell me this is a better approach for developping your own talent, than drafting your own players and having them develop with your farm team?

Are you serious? The Habs draft their own players from the CHL or NCAA or Europe, put them in the AHL, let them develop for a few years to then become full time NHL'ers...yet the Marlies sign college free agents, ignored players who will in all likelyhood never make it past the AHL, yet this is a better approach than the Bulldogs??

The only reason the Marlies have taken this approach is because Leafs management has gutted (although it's gotte slightly better lately) their system of their prospects for failed shots at the Holy Grail, they're forced to sign college free agents because they have no choice NOT because it's their prefered method of developping, the fact you actually believe that is a farce

whatever you say mooseOAK...

(crickets chirping)

 

[Little Nilan]

If Hamilton was so great what was the 40 shot per night deal that Price faced?

Can someone please stop with this argument, a lot of the shots Price faced were from the outside and the defensemen were quick to get to rebounds. Look at quality chances instead of the number of shots.

 

[Little Nilan]

Habs 2005 draft thread





...it just goes on and on for pages.

Who says Habs fans are fickle?

Even Habs fans know that, no one has ever denied, so what are you trying to prove.

 

[mooseOAK*]

So you're trying to tell me this is a better approach for developping your own talent, than drafting your own players and having them develop with your farm team?

Are you serious? The Habs draft their own players from the CHL or NCAA or Europe, put them in the AHL, let them develop for a few years to then become full time NHL'ers...yet the Marlies sign college free agents, ignored players who will in all likelyhood never make it past the AHL, yet this is a better approach than the Bulldogs??

The only reason the Marlies have taken this approach is because Leafs management has gutted (although it's gotte slightly better lately) their system of their prospects for failed shots at the Holy Grail, they're forced to sign college free agents because they have no choice NOT because it's their prefered method of developping, the fact you actually believe that is a farce

whatever you say mooseOAK...

(crickets chirping)

The Leafs haven't traded one prospect of significance in recent years unless you want to count the oft traded Brad Boyes. They have a good group of them now to go with the young players on the Leafs.

However, it never hurts to have more and with the new CBA and the cap Ferguson has taken the money that he would have put to UFA's and invested into the farm team because inexpensive home grown talent is the way to go. Signing college free agents only costs money and if only a few work out it is still a good deal. A number of these so called ignored, undrafted college players signed as free agents have gone on to have good careers.

 

[Garp]

The Leafs haven't traded one prospect of significance in recent years unless you want to count the oft traded Brad Boyes. They have a good group of them now to go with the young players on the Leafs.

However, it never hurts to have more and with the new CBA and the cap Ferguson has taken the money that he would have put to UFA's and invested into the farm team because inexpensive home grown talent is the way to go. Signing college free agents only costs money and if only a few work out it is still a good deal. A number of these so called ignored, undrafted college players signed as free agents have gone on to have good careers.

I've heard some good thing about that guy.. Tukka Rask

 

[417]

The Leafs haven't traded one prospect of significance in recent years unless you want to count the oft traded Brad Boyes. They have a good group of them now to go with the young players on the Leafs.

However, it never hurts to have more and with the new CBA and the cap Ferguson has taken the money that he would have put to UFA's and invested into the farm team because inexpensive home grown talent is the way to go. Signing college free agents only costs money and if only a few work out it is still a good deal. A number of these so called ignored, undrafted college players signed as free agents have gone on to have good careers.

Are you really that delusional?

Who's Tukka Rask then?

This is useless, you're sidestepping every argument and you're all over the place.

 

[habfan4]

The point is that it's amusing to look back at the reactions from two years ago, given that so many people are huge fans of Price now. That's all. I wouldn't even have remembered that thread if the initial reactions hadn't have been so over-the-top. I don't know why it's so difficult to see the humour in some of those responses.

We (read Hab fans) can identify the dolts who were over the top in their reaction when Price was drafted and who are now fawning over his achievements. It's not funny to most of us because we have to deal with the fallout from these drama queens. That said, I can see how others might appreciate the humour/irony in such a dramatic swing of opinion (I guess they really didn't have an informed opinion to begin with).

 

[Greatguru]

I think there's a leafs fan that need to stop saying bad arguments wich support a bad point of view...

 

[mooseOAK*]

Are you really that delusional?

Who's Tukka Rask then?

This is useless, you're sidestepping every argument and you're all over the place.

Okay, one redundant prospect then. Nice of me to make that mistake so you can bail, isn't it?

Kyle Chipchura is the Hab's 3rd best prospect, evidence that you have more to concern yourself with than the Marlies anyhow.

 

[JaymzB]

The Leafs haven't traded one prospect of significance in recent years unless you want to count the oft traded Brad Boyes. They have a good group of them now to go with the young players on the Leafs.

However, it never hurts to have more and with the new CBA and the cap Ferguson has taken the money that he would have put to UFA's and invested into the farm team because inexpensive home grown talent is the way to go. Signing college free agents only costs money and if only a few work out it is still a good deal. A number of these so called ignored, undrafted college players signed as free agents have gone on to have good careers.

I agree that it seems that Ferguson has used a risk free approach to acquiring players for the Marlies. It is a good use of the Leafs financial advantage to sign these players, risking only a small amount of cash in the process. Unlike many here, I feel the Leafs have a pretty good top end prospect group, with players like Kluemin, Stralman and Pogge. I don’t think JFJr is nearly as bad a GM as many here seem to believe.

However, the last 20 posts in this thread have been based on you claim that the Marlies and the Bulldogs are run differently, and that the Bulldogs have been built with winning the Calder Cup as the primary goal. I don’t see how you (a poster that I don’t always agree with, but I respect your views, as you back it up with logic) can make that claim. A quick look at the roster of the Bulldogs shows that in the regular season, there top 8 forwards were born in 84 or later. Of course the Bulldogs want to win the Cup (as do the Marlies), but if it was the top priority, wouldn’t they have not started the 19 year old goalie in the playoffs? Wouldn’t they have some high scoring career AHL’ers in the ranks? Don’t these facts point to the Bulldogs built a good, fairly young and well coached team filled with some promising NHL prospects?

I don’t want to get into a Habs vs. Leafs prospect debate, cause I don’t want to start anything like that. Simply, I don’t see how, given the make up of the Bulldogs, that this team was built to win the Calder more than developing young Hab prospects. The fact that they won the Calder I think speaks to the possible quality of said prospects.

 

[417]

Okay, one redundant prospect then. Nice of me to make that mistake so you can bail, isn't it?

Kyle Chipchura is the Hab's 3rd best prospect, evidence that you have more to concern yourself with than the Marlies anyhow.

The reason i'm bailing on this discussion with you is because you've brought up several things that are totally off. If you want to go on with this, we can, but make sure you know what you're talking about. (and btw, how is Tukka Rask an redundant prospect?).

And what's wrong with Kyle Chipchura being our 3rd best prospect? In case you didn't know he just came off a solid rookie year and especially playoff run where he played vs. opponents top lines, the Baines-Chichura-Ferland line shutdown some of the best offensive lines in the AHL while also contributing on the scoreboard.

Shall we compare Chipchura our 3rd best prospect (according to HF) to Robbie Earl the Leafs 3rd best prospect (according to HF)

Hell you're # 1 prospect Justin Pogge would barely get in the Habs top 10 list of prospects.

Anyways, who cares, I don't want to keep going on this angle of Habs vs. Leafs...let's talk Carey Price and what he's accomplished in his young career so far

 

[Little Nilan]

Okay, one redundant prospect then. Nice of me to make that mistake so you can bail, isn't it?

Kyle Chipchura is the Hab's 3rd best prospect, evidence that you have more to concern yourself with than the Marlies anyhow.

At least Bruins fans actually bring good points when they bash the Habs, instead of all this nonesense from you I had to read.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I agree that it seems that Ferguson has used a risk free approach to acquiring players for the Marlies. It is a good use of the Leafs financial advantage to sign these players, risking only a small amount of cash in the process. Unlike many here, I feel the Leafs have a pretty good top end prospect group, with players like Kluemin, Stralman and Pogge. I don’t think JFJr is nearly as bad a GM as many here seem to believe.

However, the last 20 posts in this thread have been based on you claim that the Marlies and the Bulldogs are run differently, and that the Bulldogs have been built with winning the Calder Cup as the primary goal. I don’t see how you (a poster that I don’t always agree with, but I respect your views, as you back it up with logic) can make that claim. A quick look at the roster of the Bulldogs shows that in the regular season, there top 8 forwards were born in 84 or later. Of course the Bulldogs want to win the Cup (as do the Marlies), but if it was the top priority, wouldn’t they have not started the 19 year old goalie in the playoffs? Wouldn’t they have some high scoring career AHL’ers in the ranks? Don’t these facts point to the Bulldogs built a good, fairly young and well coached team filled with some promising NHL prospects?

I don’t want to get into a Habs vs. Leafs prospect debate, cause I don’t want to start anything like that. Simply, I don’t see how, given the make up of the Bulldogs, that this team was built to win the Calder more than developing young Hab prospects. The fact that they won the Calder I think speaks to the possible quality of said prospects.

The primary difference between the two teams, Marlies and Bulldogs, is on the defence where Hamilton has more experience. That type of experience helps the goalie quite a bit, Halak was putting up outstanding numbers there also. While the top 8 forwards are 84 or later births the only one who has a point a game is Kostitsyn in his third AHL season.

A team that plays well defensively is obviously well coached but the individual accomplishments need to be taken into account also.