GDT: Canes at Avs: Duchene Hattrick Incoming

MinJaBen

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Every other option on the table, from a new owner to a new GM to a new coach to a major trade to tanking for a lottery pick, is either highly likely to fail or will involve us taking 2 steps back.

Well, one near-term solution would be for the coach to shelve his pride, take a good look at his and other systems, and find a way to make constructive changes that give the players we do have a better chance at success.

Yeah....made me laugh and cry too.
 
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HisIceness

This is Hurricanes Hockey
Sep 16, 2010
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And in the few season where we HAVE been that bad after we make some moves to clear out vets at the deadline the team goes on some ridiculous tear and ends up out of the running for the top prospects (see 2010 for reference).

I'm steamed about 2015. Dead last in the league for most of the year and then they go on that pointless winning streak in March like they always do. We all knew it was going to be a lame-duck season from the start.

Drafting McDavid/Eichel wouldn't have solved all the problems but for one we could have had at the very least, a player the team can showcase (especially McDavid) and build around.

But nah, they had to f*** that up. I guess though knowing our luck we still would have been 5th anyways so I guess it doesn't matter. Kind of like when we were targeting Seth Jones in 2013 but Nashville scooped him up before we did.

I really, really hope some of our recent picks like Necas, Gautier, and Roy can at least provide some relief in the scoring woes once their time comes.
 

SaskCanesFan

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Feb 27, 2015
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Talking about the team never properly tanking for a top 3 pick is a convenient, but ****ty excuse. No, they weren't gonna be able to get a McDavid or Matthews in the 5-10 range, but this team still had multiple chances to draft impact first liners and failed.

I like Lindholm and think he has more to give. But watching him put shot after shot wide or into the goalies chest, meanwhile Monahan is averaging 28 goals a season the last 3 years. There's a first liner, and a center to boot.

Fleury has been solid in his role so far and should shake off the premature bust label. Meanwhile Nylander and Ehlers are putting up 60+ point seasons at 20 years old. Those are first line players.

Hanifin has all the tools and has shown some flashes of brilliance. But he NEEDS to put it together, because Provorov and Werenski are already playing 22 minutes a night and looking a lot better doing it.

Hell, MacAvoy, who's a year younger and was a lot later pick, is playing big minutes for the Bruins and racking up the points.

There's been a ton of chances for the Canes to get the type of young impact players they're missing, even without a top 3 pick. They just haven't done it, and no amount of finding later round gems is gonna overcome that failure. That's the reason for mediocrity. People say Hanifin is young and still has time to put things together. And they're right. But he had better ****ing accomplish that goal or someone needs to be fired for their draft decision. It's not acceptable to say hey at least if he becomes a top 4 guy it's ok, when the other options you passed over are stud #1 D playing almost half the game and outscoring most of our forwards. If you wanna stop the playoff drought, you can't afford to miss like that.

Aho-Monahan-Nylander
TT-Staal-Williams
Skinner-Rask-Stemp/McGinn
Nordstrom-Kruger-Jooris

Slavin-Pesce
Provorov-Faulk
Who cares-MacAvoy

Is a team the Canes were perfectly capable of assembling, and would bet they make the playoffs.
 

NotOpie

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Jun 12, 2006
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Meanwhile down the road a piece South of here, the Checkers put up a 6 spot on their way to a 6-1 win.

From last night's recap:

"The six-goal outburst tied a season high for the Checkers, who have scored at least five goals in six of their 10 games this season. Most of the team’s offensive damage had traditionally come later in games, with the team only scoring six first-period goals in their previous nine games combined."

I'm not suggesting wholesale changes, but perhaps rewarding one of the guys who stood out in training camp and didn't go back down until late in the process (Wallmark, Zykov, or Foegele, for example) might be worth a shot.

I'm not suggesting that any of these guys are the answer, but one has to wonder what a Skinner/Wallmark/McGinn line might do....or sub out McGinn for Stempniak (once healthy). Zykov is a point per game player right now. Foegele has 6 goals in 8 games played. Wallmark is tied for 4th in the league in scoring. Seems like you could "shake up" the team with a minor, even short term move, and it just might spark something.
 

SaskCanesFan

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Yeah. If hindsight was 20/20, then Skinner, Aho, Faulk, Slavin, and Pesce wouldn’t be on the Canes roster as other teams would have selected them first.

I'm not talking about going off the board and picking out all the Kucherov, Jesper Bratt types though. Or even scooping a guy like Pasta who was a consensus 10ish spots later. I don't expect that. Every example I gave was completely realistic and attainable. Those players were all right in the range of the Canes picks, and they missed every single one of them. How is that acceptable? That's what you pay a scouting department to do.

Everybody is gonna miss sometimes. But when you're a team that lacks high end players, and the majority of those exact types are found early in the first round, then those are your most important picks that you can't afford to consistently miss.
 
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bleedgreen

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I don't regret the Boychuk move at all. JR was NEVER going to take a smallish Swedish offensive dman at that spot. No prayer. That day Boychuk was one of the best forwards available.

I was torn a bit about Bean but a run of forwards went before him and it was hinted we would've taken one of those had they fallen.

I liked Max Jones over Gauthier that day. I wasn't upset we took goat though.

Just pointless conversations. You can't change it and rarely was it flat out a bad pick AT THE TIME. Skinner was one of the most hated picks during my time here.
 
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Finlandia WOAT

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May 23, 2010
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Hanifin had absolutely no business playing in the NHL as an 18 year old, and since he was NCAA it's interesting to wonder if an extra 12 or so months of spending more time in the gym than on the ice would have helped him be a better player than he is currently.

IIRC they said draft night that he was a lock on the roster, (or as close to saying that you can get without actually saying it) so I wonder. Was Hanifin threatening to hold out if we didn't agree to sign him to a contract? Easy to see Francis eager to avoid his own JMFJ-esque situation.

Lindholm's problem, imo, is the same as Aho right now. He hadn't come into his man strength yet. We were saying as late as a calendar year ago that Lindholm hadn't improved much since he was an 18 year old, then one day his physical play suddenly started to "work" and bam, he looked like a great complimentary playmaking winger.
 
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SaskCanesFan

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I have to seriously wonder at this point whether it’s the scouting or the player development. Hanifin and Lindholm were thrown onto the roster as fast as they could get a jersey on, have done nothing but lose in their professional careers, and we’re surprised that they appear to be falling short of initial projections?

That's a good point, I shouldn't have singled out just the scouting as there's more to it. Would Werenski or Provorov be any better than Hanifin today if we had done the same with them? I don't know the answer to that.

I just find it strange that people want to get on management's backs for going bargain bin shopping and not making a major move, whether it be a signing or trade. But when the team has done the same type of thing in regards to recent drafts, getting decent complimentary players instead of core top liners, it's shrug, nothing we can do about it. I feel like if the team had hit on even half of its recent first round picks that the need to make a big trade would be minimized.

Now there's still time for all the guys I've mentioned to prove me wrong and become better than the players passed over, no doubt. But if none of them do it, I feel like that trend will be the biggest thing stopping this team from escaping mediocrity.
 
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NotOpie

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Jun 12, 2006
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Hanifin had absolutely no business playing in the NHL as an 18 year old, and since he was NCAA it's interesting to wonder if an extra 12 or so months of spending more time in the gym than on the ice would have helped him be a better player than he is currently.

IIRC they said draft night that he was a lock on the roster, (or as close to saying that you can get without actually saying it) so I wonder. Was Hanifin threatening to hold out if we didn't agree to sign him to a contract? Easy to see Francis eager to avoid his own JMFJ-esque situation.

Lindholm's problem, imo, is the same as Aho right now. He hadn't come into his man strength yet. We were saying as late as a calendar year ago that Lindholm hadn't improved much since he was an 18 year old, then one day his physical play suddenly started to "work" and bam, he looked like a great complimentary playmaking winger.

Regarding Hanifin, I do believe there was some justified fear of a Jimmy Vesey situation should he not get an immediate contract and immediate ice time.
 

AD Skinner

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IIRC they said draft night that he was a lock on the roster, (or as close to saying that you can get without actually saying it) so I wonder. Was Hanifin threatening to hold out if we didn't agree to sign him to a contract? Easy to see Francis eager to avoid his own JMFJ-esque situation.

Weren't there rumors to this effect here on HF around the draft? I didn't put any stock into them and still don't but I remember some posters like breaking down the video on how he was already planning his way out or some such
 
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Stickpucker

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Well every season we are in the same spot. Hard to have new conversations. Just different names with the same results.

Would you like to debate who is better between ourselves and Buffalo?
 

tarheelhockey

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Regarding Hanifin, I do believe there was some justified fear of a Jimmy Vesey situation should he not get an immediate contract and immediate ice time.

Weren't there rumors to this effect here on HF around the draft? I didn't put any stock into them and still don't but I remember some posters like breaking down the video on how he was already planning his way out or some such

There weren’t any specific rumors at the time that I remember... but, this is exactly the sort of thing that gets discussed during pre-draft player interviews.

It makes me wonder if they asked Hanifin about his expectations in terms of a timeline to being an NHL player, and perhaps he made it clear that he felt NHL-ready right away. And they knew, when he was still available when it came time to pick, that getting his signature on an NHL contract was going to be contingent on a quick entry to the league.

That’s how I justify that draft-floor promise to put him on the roster. It’s the only thing that makes sense to me as far as throwing it at him immediately and evoking that “hey dad I’m on the team!” reaction.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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I'm not talking about going off the board and picking out all the Kucherov, Jesper Bratt types though. Or even scooping a guy like Pasta who was a consensus 10ish spots later. I don't expect that. Every example I gave was completely realistic and attainable.

That's not what I was saying. You posted the line-up that included Aho, Skinner, Rask, Slavin, Pesce, Faulk along with the draft re-dos you did, which is the fallacy with hindsight. I'm not talking about going off the board, but if everybody has hindsight, then there is no way Skinner is there at #7 for the Canes, or that Aho is there in the 2nd round, or Slavin in the 4th, etc...so your line-up is unrealistic, in hindsight, even if the specific examples you gave were attainable. Also, you don't know where the Canes would have finished in subsequent years had they drafted those other players in prior years.

Those players were all right in the range of the Canes picks, and they missed every single one of them. How is that acceptable? That's what you pay a scouting department to do.

Everybody is gonna miss sometimes. But when you're a team that lacks high end players, and the majority of those exact types are found early in the first round, then those are your most important picks that you can't afford to consistently miss.

IMO, Lindholm was a good pick. Was deemed as a high skilled forward (viewed as higher skilled than Monahan, who was viewed more as a goal scorer). He was rushed and now is developing into the exact type of player we expected him to be. Fleury is only 12 games into his NHL career, but looks to be a poor choice given the success of Nylaner/Ehlers. Hanifin was a slam dunk pick at the time. Pretty much every scouting org had him ranked 3-5. If the Canes would have passed over him, the board would have revolted. He's 20, so let's give it a few years before declaring this one was a miss. No sense even discussing picks in 2016 or 2017 yet.
 
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geehaad

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That's a good point, I shouldn't have singled out just the scouting as there's more to it. Would Werenski or Provorov be any better than Hanifin today if we had done the same with them? I don't know the answer to that. There's been a ton of chances for the Canes to get the type of young impact players they're missing, even without a top 3 pick. They just haven't done it, and no amount of finding later round gems is gonna overcome that failure. That's the reason for mediocrity. Now there's still time for all the guys I've mentioned to prove me wrong and become better than the players passed over, no doubt. But if none of them do it, I feel like that trend will be the biggest thing stopping this team from escaping mediocrity.
"I shouldn't have singled out scouting, but I'm going to go ahead and do that once more, furthering what is clearly a lack of basic understanding about the expectations that can be reasonably applied to drafting 18-year-old kids."
 

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