can anyone name me the teams in the echl that are stable

[Kometsman]

how many?

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[JungleJON]

I would have to say only one - Kansas City. Because the Mavericks are the only ones that can be put in a stable.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Stable in terms of what? Attendance? Longevity in their market? Affiliation? Performance? Arena situation? There's many metrics by which one could judge stability.

 

[Kometsman]

Stable in terms of $$$ & being around in the next 5 yrs & longer

 

[HWP1997]

I would have to say only one - Kansas City. Because the Mavericks are the only ones that can be put in a stable.

LOL

 

[JMCx4]

I'll play along while others are arguing semantics ... Adirondack, Allen, Colorado ('til the end of this season), Florida, Fort Wayne, Indy, Missouri, Orlando, Toledo, Wheeling (despite themselves). Those seem to have the best chance of 3-year survival as they exist today. Anything much beyond is gravy in minor pro hockey.

 

[Woo Hockey]

Every team but the Komets...

 

[GindyDraws]

I'll play along while others are arguing semantics ... Adirondack, Allen, Colorado ('til the end of this season), Florida, Fort Wayne, Indy, Missouri, Orlando, Toledo, Wheeling (despite themselves). Those seem to have the best chance of 3-year survival as they exist today. Anything much beyond is gravy in minor pro hockey.

As much as I kind of hate humoring Kometsman, I've said in the past that a realistic ECHL in the future could be a 16-20 team league. The scheduling would be largely the same (mainly local travel), and if you live in a Western market, like Idaho, Utah, or Rapid City, you're used to that already, but at least the teams that still stand would be profitable and more competitive.

Excluding Colorado, I think these are the teams that could have longevity.

*Idaho
*Utah
*Rapid City
*Wichita
*Tulsa
*Allen
*Kansas City
*Indy
*Fort Wayne
*Cincinnati
*Toledo
*Atlanta
*Orlando
*Florida
*Reading
*Wheeling
*Adirondack
*South Carolina

One needs to be reminded of the Owensboro fiasco to question Jacksonville's stability (I actually saw some people from Owensboro at the All-star festival that wished things did work out but felt the arena idea wasn't feasible). The former AHL markets Norfolk & Manchester have seemed to reject the ECHL teams (Norfolk especially, but with idiots in charge...). Brampton is Brampton; they failed as an OHL market, and seem to survive on a thread right now. Kalamazoo & Quad City have arena issues from what I've read. And I don't know anything about Greensville.

I think Worcester has embraced the ECHL so far, but because they'd be an island without Manchester or Maine, I think they'll try to position for AHL relocation given how that league is now just a place to shuffle people annually.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

IF St. John's gets in as rumored with Toronto's dual affiliation... that puts Orlando in question

 

[JMCx4]

IF St. John's gets in as rumored with Toronto's dual affiliation... that puts Orlando in question

Unless the DeVos Family purchased the Solar Bears last spring simply to take a loss then kick them out onto the Streets of Disney (which I suppose is possible), I'll keep Orlando on my short list.

Meanwhile, JDogindy is quite the optimist. Let's hope all those teams listen.

 

[210]

I think Worcester has embraced the ECHL so far, but because they'd be an island without Manchester or Maine, I think they'll try to position for AHL relocation given how that league is now just a place to shuffle people annually.

Not. A. Chance.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

what JD forgets, is all 3 markets have been there, and the only real difference is Manchester transitioned quicker than the other two despite going out as a championship team...... financially is what cost Portland, and it happened twice, much as Worcester dealt with the Blues and then the Sharks.

 

[mk80]

IF St. John's gets in as rumored with Toronto's dual affiliation... that puts Orlando in question

It would take away their affiliation but I doubt they're in jeopardy considering they were recently bought by the owners of the Orlando Magic.

My list of what I consider stable teams (without a defining characteristic to base it on)

KC (owned by Lamar Hunt), Rapid City, Witchita, Fort Wayne, Allen, Idaho, Utah, Cincinnati, Orlando, Florida, Toledo, Tulsa, Jacksonville, South Carolina, not sure about Atlanta but I'll put them on my list, I'll say Portland considering their ownership but that may be premature.

I hope Norfolk and Manchester can find a way to revive their attendance figures, maybe in the case of Norfolk that could be helped with better owners.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

It would take away their affiliation but I doubt they're in jeopardy considering they were recently bought by the owners of the Orlando Magic.

My list of what I consider stable teams (without a defining characteristic to base it on)

KC (owned by Lamar Hunt), Rapid City, Witchita, Fort Wayne, Allen, Idaho, Utah, Cincinnati, Orlando, Florida, Toledo, Tulsa, Jacksonville, South Carolina, not sure about Atlanta but I'll put them on my list, I'll say Portland considering their ownership but that may be premature.

I hope Norfolk and Manchester can find a way to revive their attendance figures, maybe in the case of Norfolk that could be helped with better owners.

Norfolk has committed for another three years, from what I saw there locally.....

 

[Avsrule2022]

I think Rapid City is questionable at best. Their org seems to have fallen off a cliff and attendance has shrunk dramatically. Next year losing Colorado will hurt them even more. Honestly, I think Rapid, Utah and Idaho will all be out of the ECHL in the next 5 years, unless there is future western expansion.

 

[kyfry]

If by some miracle Cincinnati is actually able to do the US Bank Arena renovation/rebuild then the Cyclones may have to go dark during that time, No other arena in Cincinnati has ice making capabilites and I highly doubt they will play at practice rink like Northlands or SportsPlus. However I dont think the rebuild will happen seeing as how it is so far down on the counties list behind the Western Hills Viaduct, and an FC Cincinnati Stadium. Not to mention just announced in the past few days is that the county is looking at placing an indoor/outdoor music venue nearby at The Banks development. At This point unless the arena owner and operator will take on full cost (doubtful) at best I could only see a minor renovation rather than a rebuild.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

If by some miracle Cincinnati is actually able to do the US Bank Arena renovation/rebuild then the Cyclones may have to go dark during that time, No other arena in Cincinnati has ice making capabilites and I highly doubt they will play at practice rink like Northlands or SportsPlus. However I dont think the rebuild will happen seeing as how it is so far down on the counties list behind the Western Hills Viaduct, and an FC Cincinnati Stadium. Not to mention just announced in the past few days is that the county is looking at placing an indoor/outdoor music venue nearby at The Banks development. At This point unless the arena owner and operator will take on full cost (doubtful) at best I could only see a minor renovation rather than a rebuild.

Agreed.

With no NHL, NBA or Div I College Basketball team as a tenant, spending $200-500 million on what amounts to a new arena ain't gonna happen. The arena ownership isn't silly enough to spend this. The arena is completely functional and is in good shape-there's not a need for a new arena.

Outside of the arena renovation long shot possibility, the Cyclones are solid as a rock. The management team has done a remarkable job of filling the seats. The Cyclones currently rank 7th in announced attendance in the ECHL However, they could very well be second in actual attendance-only Toledo is for certain above the Clones.

Cincinnati 5245
Florida 5315
Jacksonville 5597
Orlando 5650
Tulsa 5908
Ft Wayne 7701
Toledo 7474

Florida, Orlando and Ft. Wayne numbers are heavily juiced. I've been to enough games at each venue to draw this conclusion. Evansville's announced number were a fiction (or they still would be there), so I'll assume Jacksonville's numbers (same owner) are probably too high.

Don't know about Tulsa. Toledo's announced numbers have always seemed reasonable when I've been there. The Cyclones announce number in the building. If they used any of the other team's methodologies I'm pretty sure that their announced numbers would be higher than anyone but Toledo's and perhaps Tulsa's.

 

[JMCx4]

...

Cincinnati 5245
Florida 5315
Jacksonville 5597
Orlando 5650
Tulsa 5908
Ft Wayne 7701
Toledo 7474

Florida, Orlando and Ft. Wayne numbers are heavily juiced. I've been to enough games at each venue to draw this conclusion. Evansville's announced number were a fiction (or they still would be there), so I'll assume Jacksonville's numbers (same owner) are probably too high. ...

The IceMen front office must've read your post, Rock, and dropped their average attendance by 10 heads to 5587.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

IF St. John's gets in as rumored with Toronto's dual affiliation... that puts Orlando in question

I can't see any team wanting to transfer to St John's. The transportation to the city can only be done by air. Just so prohibitive expensive. The Leafs left St John's because the team was too busy travelling instead of resting and practising Not saying that the ECHL is a development league, St John's just too darn expensive and inconvenient.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I can't see any team wanting to transfer to St John's. The transportation to the city can only be done by air. Just so prohibitive expensive. The Leafs left St John's because the team was too busy travelling instead of resting and practising Not saying that the ECHL is a development league, St John's just too darn expensive and inconvenient.

that's what we thought, but it's happening.... the Edge group isn't going to be a roadblock because Courteau is the roadblock in the Q.... AND that's already happened based off the Telegram's reporting.... now comes the confirmation that this ECHL Group has a lease with Mile One and SJSE, as it appears the exclusivity window is being slammed shut, and then official confirmation that a new franchise is coming to NFLD.... what name it takes from there remains to be seen.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

that's what we thought, but it's happening.... the Edge group isn't going to be a roadblock because Courteau is the roadblock in the Q.... AND that's already happened based off the Telegram's reporting.... now comes the confirmation that this ECHL Group has a lease with Mile One and SJSE, as it appears the exclusivity window is being slammed shut, and then official confirmation that a new franchise is coming to NFLD.... what name it takes from there remains to be seen.

Thanks for this. Good for the folks of St John's. Hope it doesn't hurt the junior team attendance/finances. I've never been concerned if owners make or lose money...hey it's their money. And even the NHL have never been that concerned about ownership either, as long as the owners, "promised" to pay their bills, which hasn't always happened.

 

[mk80]

Florida, Orlando and Ft. Wayne numbers are heavily juiced. I've been to enough games at each venue to draw this conclusion. Evansville's announced number were a fiction (or they still would be there), so I'll assume Jacksonville's numbers (same owner) are probably too high.

Don't know about Tulsa. Toledo's announced numbers have always seemed reasonable when I've been there. The Cyclones announce number in the building. If they used any of the other team's methodologies I'm pretty sure that their announced numbers would be higher than anyone but Toledo's and perhaps Tulsa's.

I know a lot of teams will use the number of tickets distributed (paid for and comped) rather than the drop. I have seen pictures/video that Jacksonville has had some crowds of 5-6k but that was early in the season. And yes many teams do come up with numbers that are vastly different from what the actual numbers are.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I know a lot of teams will use the number of tickets distributed (paid for or comped) rather than the drop. I have seen pictures/video that Jacksonville has had some crowds of 5-6k but that was early in the season. And yes many teams do come up with numbers that are vastly different from what the actual numbers are.

I remember reading an article in the Dayton Daily News right after the Bombers folded. They had announced an average of 3600 or so that season. The article said the the drop count was something like 1900 and the actual paid was a shade over 1000.

My main point (and I know you understand) is that announced attendance figures can often be very misleading and can't be used as a sign of financial health.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Thanks for this. Good for the folks of St John's. Hope it doesn't hurt the junior team attendance/finances. I've never been concerned if owners make or lose money...hey it's their money. And even the NHL have never been that concerned about ownership either, as long as the owners, "promised" to pay their bills, which hasn't always happened.

I was in the same thought because Lewiston went that way, and Courteau is exactly the same now as he was when Lewiston left or "terminated" DESPITE being a charter member....

St. John's lost the Q BUT Saint John WAS THOUGHT to be their rival back then, BEFORE the Ice Caps EXISTED.

BTW, Courteau, had a lot of fascination with placing a Q team in Montreal, which finally backfired, now with Laval and the Canadiens being there likely had a lot to do with it. St. John's Q Team is now in Blainville Boisbriand, as the Armada

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I was in the same thought because Lewiston went that way, and Courteau is exactly the same now as he was when Lewiston left or "terminated" DESPITE being a charter member....

St. John's lost the Q BUT Saint John WAS THOUGHT to be their rival back then, BEFORE the Ice Caps EXISTED.

BTW, Courteau, had a lot of fascination with placing a Q team in Montreal, which finally backfired, now with Laval and the Canadiens being there likely had a lot to do with it. St. John's Q Team is now in Blainville Boisbriand, as the Armada

Thanks again for this. I hadn't realized that the St John's junior team had to been relocated (me bad). Isn't it time that the Quebec Hockey be renamed? You could say the same about the Ontario league.