C Vladislav Kamenev (2014, 42nd, NSH; traded to COL)

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Would they? I think thats the main question here. Maybe Ovechkin or Malkin would have been fine, but we just don't know how Panarin or Kuznetsov or even Tarasenko would've done. There have been many guys who at the time were just as talented as them who developed in NA, and look what happened.

Kucherov went over at the same age as Kamenev. I never said Kamenev can't be a good player or that he's permanently infected from playing in NA too early, but I think Kamenev and Kucherov could've benefited from staying longer in the KHL. It doesn't matter how good Kucherov is now, it doesn't change the prior examples in front of him. Andrei Svechnikov is a great talent, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been better off staying in Russia until after he was drafted. Whether he even would've been any better is irrelevant.

And I find the argument that the KHL had a number of players who didn't pan out to be a weak argument. All leagues have players who don't pan out, but there is a disproportionate amount of Russian forwards who go to play in North America either before being drafted or just after being drafted who don't pan out or don't pan out as they were expected to.

I really believe so, yes. I think Tarasenko would have done amazing in the CHL. Kuznetsov too. They're too talented not to.

I can't wait until Andrei Svechnikov is a 40-40 guy in the NHL so we can acknowledge that ultra-talented Russians can succeed in Russia or NA.

It's only disproportionate because up until now the better Russians have chosen to stay in Russia. That's what is skewing the numbers more than anything.
 
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Flukeshot

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I think the move to the Avs will be good for him and open up an opportunity to play in the NHL soon. Hoping he pans out.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Nobody ever projected Kamenev to have the ceiling that was projected for Buchnevich, that's what is so insincere here. Over and over I see you starting with a conclusion and cherry picking "facts" to support it.

"Kamenev was a KHL regular by the time he left." There are a lot of players in the KHL doing very well who couldn't make it in the NHL. Dawes and Vey were fringe prospects here, they are stars there, and so many more. Kamenev hasn't regressed, he's just slotting in where a player of his talents does over here.

For many players the NHL is the pinnacle of hockey. This apparently includes a lot of Russian born players. Sorry. I love all hockey, and enjoy following the KHL too (to the extent it is possible from Canada), but I'm not going to play along with your delusion that the KHL is anywhere close to the calibre of the NHL. Maybe a couple of the absurdly stacked teams, but outside of that the idea is laughable.

I agree with the others though, it is a bad idea to engage your arguments on individual player threads because you will derail so many of the with your specious arguments. I'll leave you with the last word but if you don't explain why so many marginal NA players are successful in the KHL you clearly don't have a leg to stand on.

You are exceeding my expectations at missing the point.

I don't care if you remember or not, but I do. At the tender age of 17-18 both players were considered to have a pretty similar ceiling. It is just a fact. Just like the fact that Buchnevich just developed better. He was as junior just like Kamenev not seen like the future superstar, by far not Kuznetsov/Tarasenko level. So which "facts" do you mean? I am not cherry picking. I just see the whole picture while you reduce it to the current state of affairs. You use it as a wrong conclusion.

You really miss the point of being a KHL regualr. Who the puck cares who the stars in the KHL are(Dawes and Vey aren't, but you would need a longer explanation to understand that, while you obviously don't follow the league)? What does it have to do with my point? Can you please read my post again and understand what the point was?

I see you don't even understand how different the game in both leagues is and think there is a steady curve of talent towards the NHL. "A player of his talents" could slot in anywhere in the KHL or NHL unless he is Ovechkin. There are many more factors to it. Just because a player can't make the top 6 on one NHL team doesn't mean he's bad. Just because a player is scoring a lot on one KHL team doesn't mean he's that good. That is why guys like Evander Kane and Vadim Shipachyov fail.

I don't care for whom the NHL(a local league with spread talent) is the pinnacle. It's not about opinions. Don Cherry has opinions too. What to you is so apparent about Russian players is a mystery to me. Just because Russians play inthe NHL doesn't mean they don't value Olympics more for example. Where the player earns his money is a different issue. Some players chose to stay in Russia for example. Not because they are not good enough for the NHL too. Just because some of them prefer earning their money at home(and the KHL gives them that opportunity). And some want to play in the NHL. And they are athletes too. Obviously playing in the NHL you want to win the Stanley Cup, playing in the KHL you want to win the Gagarin Cup. It is still sports and it is still about winning. But all those cups don't compare to international competition.

Again, it is not about which league is better. It seems North Americans are more obsessed with it, i.e. with proving and statung and fighting for "the best league in the world". I don't even care. And it was never about the NHL in regard to Kamenev. He is not a NHL player. For Kamenev it is about what development path was the best for him. And I stated that playing in the KHL where he already was a regular and had a roster spot would benefit him more than playing in the AHL. Obviouslyin the AHL he hasn't become a better player.

There are no "marginal NA players". Your problem is again the same. You base your "marginal" on the same wrong measuring stick of the NHL. Andrei Markov was still a useful player in he NHL. He can't cut it on the big ring. He is just too slow for the bigger surface. A lot of NHL defencemen would face the same problem if moved to the KHL. While smallish, faster guys like Chris Lee succeeded. Beyond the top talent, who are just too good to fail on any rink(while their stats would differ too) there are players better suited for the big rink or the small rink. A lot of those fringe NHLers come to the KHL and amount to nothing. Don't pick cherries here too. It's not like every NHL reject is a sure shot KHL star or even regular.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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I really believe so, yes. I think Tarasenko would have done amazing in the CHL. Kuznetsov too. They're too talented not to.

I can't wait until Andrei Svechnikov is a 40-40 guy in the NHL so we can acknowledge that ultra-talented Russians can succeed in Russia or NA.

It's only disproportionate because up until now the better Russians have chosen to stay in Russia. That's what is skewing the numbers more than anything.
If Andrei Svechnikov becomes a 40-40 NHLer then he will be way behind the expectations hence the CHL wouldn't have helped.
 

cgf

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Oct 15, 2010
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And I find the argument that the KHL had a number of players who didn't pan out to be a weak argument. All leagues have players who don't pan out, but there is a disproportionate amount of Russian forwards who go to play in North America either before being drafted or just after being drafted who don't pan out or don't pan out as they were expected to.

Let's name some other than Grigorenko & Yakubov. And then let's think about all of the russian talents who stayed in russia and who's development still stagnated below what some thought their potential was when they were younger. That's just how young development goes in all sports. Even the Bundesliga doesn't have a perfect record of getting prospects to their full potential...shakes fist angrily at the squandered brilliance of Yesil, Öztunali, Draxler, Bunjaki, etc...and the BuLi is god.

I think the move to the Avs will be good for him and open up an opportunity to play in the NHL soon. Hoping he pans out.

I'm lowkey hoping that Soderberg takes him under his wing a little if Kamenev comes up for good this season...unless Soda goes back into "no f***s to give" mode, like he was in last year...cause when the big swede is on he is one crafty SOB and I'd love for either Kamenev or Bowers to get close to what we got out of Soda in his first season in Colorado (under Roy).
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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If Andrei Svechnikov becomes a 40-40 NHLer then he will be way behind the expectations hence the CHL wouldn't have helped.

1 player scored more than 40 goals last year in the NHL. But I get it, you have to set the bar high so you still have a way to blame the CHL. Fits you narrative. Heaven forbid a Russian player becomes a top 10 player in the league while developing in NA.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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1 player scored more than 40 goals last year in the NHL. But I get it, you have to set the bar high so you still have a way to blame the CHL. Fits you narrative. Heaven forbid a Russian player becomes a top 10 player in the league while developing in NA.
I don't have to do anything. I also don't need those useless stats discussions. They are way too popular in NA. Andrei Svechnikov was once projected to become a top 5 player. If he won't he will fall behind the expectations. No matter where he developed. Heaven forbid people use logic. Stop pushing YOUR agenda and YOUR narrative.

I don't care how many goals how many players scored when. There is an Ovechkin who scored 50 7 times. What now? If Svechnikov becomes a 25-60 scorer, oh what tragedy! [mod]

It's not about numbers. It is about players and their skills. Svechnikov is a kind of talent that is difficult to ruin completely. He won't be a bust in any league at any time. But even such a talent can develop differently. He could have learned the russian game and become a much smarter player(something Ovechkin should have done too). He chose to adapt to a different system without finishing his studies.
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
I don't have to do anything. I also don't need those useless stats discussions. They are way too popular in NA. Andrei Svechnikov was once projected to become a top 5 player. If he won't he will fall behind the expectations. No matter where he developed. Heaven forbid people use logic. Stop pushing YOUR agenda and YOUR narrative.

I don't care how many goals how many players scored when. There is an Ovechkin who scored 50 7 times. What now? If Svechnikov becomes a 25-60 scorer, oh what tragedy! [mod]

It's not about numbers. It is about players and their skills. Svechnikov is a kind of talent that is difficult to ruin completely. He won't be a bust in any league at any time. But even such a talent can develop differently. He could have learned the russian game and become a much smarter player(something Ovechkin should have done too). He chose to adapt to a different system without finishing his studies.

Stats are useless? Because your post I originally responded to was 100% about stats. My only "agenda" is that talented players can develop successfully a number of different ways. Crazy thought, I know.
 
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Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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Someone asked a good question a while back: does anyone know Kamenev's faceoff percentage this year? I can't find anything on the AHL site (why is this stat kept by no one but the QMJHL?).
 
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Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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Stats are useless? Because your post I originally responded to was 100% about stats. My only "agenda" is that talented players can develop successfully a number of different ways. Crazy thought, I know.
Stats are useless for comparing leagues.

Talented players can develop in a boatload of ways. The question is why should a player deliberately choose a way with a lesser probability of success.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
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Someone asked a good question a while back: does anyone know Kamenev's faceoff percentage this year? I can't find anything on the AHL site (why is this stat kept by no one but the QMJHL?).
The AHL purposely releases as little info as possible because the NHL feels it's classified into on how their prospects are doing.

Anyway, sounds like he will be in the NHL soon enough.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
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Let's name some other than Grigorenko & Yakubov. And then let's think about all of the russian talents who stayed in russia and who's development still stagnated below what some thought their potential was when they were younger. That's just how young development goes in all sports. Even the Bundesliga doesn't have a perfect record of getting prospects to their full potential...shakes fist angrily at the squandered brilliance of Yesil, Öztunali, Draxler, Bunjaki, etc...and the BuLi is god.

Burmistrov, Kabanov, Sokolov, Barbashev, Goldobin, Tolchinsky all drafted out of the CHL, and many more I can't think of. I'd even say someone like Vladimir Tkachev wasted his time in the CHL, didn't end up getting drafted, he probably thought he'd go to NA, the scouts would notice him, and he'd be drafted. Nichushkin came over too early, although that might've not been a problem with the leagues as he went into the NHL right away as opposed to Dallas rushing him. Slepyshev came over too early, I think Guryanov and Vorobyov both came over way too early, although we'll see if that ruins their careers or not, I think going from KHL to AHL is much better than KHL to CHL. The AHL is a lower level than the KHL, but its still a competitive professional league. Its not 100% that coming to NA too soon will ruin them, it didn't ruin Anisimov, for example.

Well, I agree with you about the Bundesliga, but its the same principle that applies here as applies there. Would you want to send Eggestein, Arp, Abouchabaka, Batista Meier to Chelsea and Man City's academy? Do you think thats best for their development? Or should they stay in their own country to develop and then leave for more money and higher prestige once they are already very good pros? The KHL has their share of busts, all leagues do, but I think if someone ever ran the numbers on this, it would show there's a disproportionate amount of Russian forwards who bust after going to NA too early.
 

BKarchitect

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Oct 12, 2017
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Interesting to see what happens on the Avs roster - Sakic is all but guaranteeing Kamenev a spot. Yeah, Duchene is gone but Jost is coming back and also looks to still be in the NHL plans this year and then when Compher gets back, what's the line-up...who sits?
 

Goulet17

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May 22, 2003
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Kamenev with three points tonight (3 assists through two periods), 4 total points through not quite two games and at a ppg average through 12 total AHL games to this point.
 

EXTRAS

Registered User
Jul 31, 2012
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He plays his first game as an Av tonight, centering a line of Yakupov and andrighetto.
 

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